Re: #19
As a DA, is she prosecuting physicians accused of fraud, misconduct, etc.?
I think in general the UCs, and especially Berkeley have a reputation for being cutthroat, and not just for pre-med. Engineering, especially EECS has the reputation of destroying grades and there is very little collaboration given that you can’t continue without getting above a certain GPA.
My son is a junior taking the premed courses at Cornell. I have never once heard him describe the atmosphere as “cutthroat.”
As with most top schools, the premed classes are curved with a lot of talented hard-working students but that doesn’t manifest into an antagonistic culture.
Re: #21
UCB does not weed out engineering majors by GPA, as long as it is above 2.0. The schools that weed out engineering majors would be those like Purdue, Wisconsin, Texas A&M, etc. that have a first year pre engineering program after which students compete by GPA (and sometimes essays) to get into their majors.
UCB does have lots of aspiring pre-meds, but probably only about a quarter of them earn grades high enough that medical school admission is possible (and then they also need a high MCAT score, pre-med extracurriculars, etc.).
If you don’t mind Texas then look up Baylor University. Their pre-med track is solid and supportive. They offer generous merit and need based scholarships. They have connections with network of Baylor schools of Medicine, Nursing, Dentistry, Sports Medicine and Baylor hospitals.
Texas has several good medical schools and after doing undergraduate from Texas, she’ll be available for in-state tuition. Its easier to find residency in area of your interest, compared to NY and CA. Overall, Baylor has a relaxed environment yet high rate of medical school admissions.
Rice is another good option, more competitive but very collaborative and nerdy environment. However, being an elite 20 college, they are as selective as ivies and merit scholarships are rare. They do have generous financial aid. There is no greek system so less distractions yet all the advantages of a close knit community through Yale style residential college system. They have distinguished teaching hospitals and prestigious Baylor medical school next doors so lots of research and internship opportunities.
My son is about to go pre-med at a state flagship that also has it’s own medical school and hospitals. He takes the same pre-reqs that all bio and life science students take. Their selection of electives is more broad in the second year. Differentiation really begins at 3rd year where pre-med students begin taking classes at the medical school doing cool things like cadaver dissections (sorry - biologist here). I don’t think the early classes are extra difficult to weed out pre-meds. Maybe difficult enough to weed out ALL non-serious science majors. From my days, I recall organic chem was graded on a tremendous curve - you were thrilled to get a 60. Seems to be universal to this day. My wife taught undergrad microbiology at BU. She said the pre-meds there were ridiculous in that they wanted grades changed to A’s or explain away mistakes on tests (“you can see I had the correct answer the first time, I just accidentally erased it.” - yes this was really said). I guess pre-med attitude might might vary from school to school. I would suggest looking into a top state university that has a medical school and strong research program for additional opportunities like my son will receive. An additional comment made by my cardiologist: "Tell your son to go to the university where it is easiest to get a high GPA of 3.8+ because med schools are more worried about the number and less where it came from. He said the med school and your residency are how doctors are judged. He went to an ivy medical school and residency in Boston.
Rice is a school where you need to dig down on the med school ‘accepted’ percentile. 85% of the 20-25% of the ones who went in for pre-med requirements, maybe. Not one of my DS’s friends who came in pre med will be applying, even ones who changed to more GPA friendly majors. DS2 who wants pre-med is not considering Rice…
@noready That happens at every school and accepted percentiles are inflated everywhere, even at places like Rice and Yale. To be fair, lots of students pick pre-med because its a childhood fantasy, pays very well and their parents nudge them in that direction. However, in college, they realize its not their cup of tea. Some genuinely want to do it but just don’t have the apptitude or chops to make it. Same goes for other tracks and majors as well. Undergraduate is the time to explore your academic strengths and weaknesses. Also, its a time of rude awakening as students who were stars of their average schools, fade among a galaxy of shinier stars.
Baylor med is not affiliated with Baylor Univ. Don’t know about the other professional schools
There are different criteria here:
1° purposely weedout v. natural attrition: some classes, especially at large universities that must cut the number of premeds, make it impossible for more than about 20-25% to get med school worthy grades, even if potentially 30, 40, or even 50% of the group would be "qualified"in terms of mastery and work. Natural attrition is when kids who didn’t do the work, don’t understand the materials, or figure they don’t like biology or chemistry as much as they thought they did/would, switch majors. Berkeley, UCLA, Purdue… use weedout classes. Smaller colleges have an advantage here because they seek to keep all students, as much as possible; education is much more personalized (you may picnic with your personal adviser during orientation, who may handle only 6 freshmen because your college has a 11:1 ratio, v. a large university where you don’t get a personal adviser until junior year and where advisers have to handle a a hundred students, none of whom they know.) However it means you have fewer choices for class times (there may be only 3 sections of Biology so you may have to take an 8 am class).
2° collaborative v. competitive: some universities have a competitive student body overall; others have a more collaborative student body. You can compare descriptions in Fiske for Williams and Grinnell, or WashU and Emory.
The best environment for premeds is one that is supportive, doesn’t weed, and is collaborative. However those criteria may result in a less prestigious college, which doesn’t matter if the student gets into med school but may matter if they change their mind. A good rule of thumb is whether the student is top 25% - but it shouldn’t be at a college that lacks resources, whether because it’d lower the odds of a successful application or whether (most importantly) the student will not get into med school.
@mom2collegekids Same folks sit on both boards so even if they aren’t officially affiliated, they have shared interests. There is also a Baylor-Baylor BS-MD track. I think Rice is the only other college offering combined BS-MD with Baylor School of Medicine but they are literally next door to each other so it makes sense.
I don’t knnow why the word cutthroat, as if the real issue is other students. I see the problem as impossible standards on tests, questions about work not covered in class or texts, a level of application of knowledge most hs kids can’t fathom.
I second Mt Holyoke. Not because it’s women, per se, or a kinder cohort. Rather the attitude of the school. Not to avoid games, but to help the best kids meetthe bar. That’s why we distinguish between competitive and collaborative, re premed.
And nothing, absolutely nothing, says an LAC won’t weed brutally. You need to explore by college or U. Nor assume by type.
As far as weeding goes, its not all bad. In some cases, college advisors help students switch to better suited majors and tracks instead of wasting their time and potential on something they aren’t truly interested in or good at. In other cases, its to protect college’s medical acceptance rate and often, it helps both college and student.