non drinker seeks school...

<p>
[quote]
she goes to a school that may be more tolerant of drug users than some other institutions.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I wouldn't know about that. </p>

<p>I do know there has been one confirmed drug arrest at Swarthmore this year. Reports I've seen indicate the student was "invited" to move off-campus and out of college housing effective immediately and that, following discussions with the deans, the student has opted to "take some time off from Swarthmore" beginning next semester. </p>

<p>I could be off-base, but I'm not reading a lot of "tolerance" into those reports.</p>

<p>From the OPE crime website directly:</p>

<p>"Cautionary Notes</p>

<p>The institutions provided data presented on this website to the Department using a Web-based data collection tool. The statistics represent alleged criminal offenses reported to campus security authorities or local police agencies. Therefore, the data collected do not necessarily reflect prosecutions or convictions for crime. "</p>

<p>I'Dad, the information may be from the campus "authorities" (OR local police agencies), and it is reported by the institution.</p>

<p>Sokkermom:</p>

<p>Colleges are required by law to report all campus arrests and disciplinary referrels for liquor law violations, drug law violations, illegal weapons violations, hate crimes, and sexual assault violations. This is not voluntary reporting. That's why the data is readily available on a public website for every college in the United States.</p>

<p>There is some degree of discretion in disciplinary referels. For example, the campus police at Williams often bust up drinking in the freshmen dorms. But, according to their interviews in the school paper, that often involves asking the students to pour out their booze, but no official citation is written and submitted to the deans. In other cases, where the security officer finds repeat hard-core offenders or a particularly troubling situation, an official citation is written. This would then become one of the "disciplinary referrals" reported to the OPE. Arrests are a different category. No discretion on those.</p>

<p>The cautionary note you refer to is to make clear that the incidents reported represent total arrests and citations, but do NOT mean that formal charges were ever filed or that the student was convicted. In many cases, a local police agency will arrest someone and later determine that there is insufficient evidence to pursue criminal charges. Or, the case may be plea-bargained.</p>

<p><<mcdeb, if="" your="" kids="" are="" easy-going="" and="" tolerant="" therefore="" don't="" mind="" a="" roommate="" who="" pukes="" on="" bed="" 2="" or="" 3="" times="" week;="" routinely="" has="" 12="" friends="" over="" thursday="" night="" to="" share="" keg="" while="" you're="" trying="" finish="" paper,="" defecates="" the="" floor="" because="" he's="" too="" drunk="" find="" bathroom="" that's="" great.="" you've="" really="" raised="" some="" terrific,="" broad="" minded="" teenagers="" models="" for="" rest="" of="" us.="">></mcdeb,></p>

<p>Yes, they apparently are. Because A. the situations you described would be totally out of the ordinary on any college campus and B. if my children were faced with anything remotely like that, they would know how to handle it without running to mom and dad to get them out of that terrible environment. </p>

<p><<meanwhile, some="" parents="" out="" there="" are="" working="" an="" 80="" hour="" week="" to="" generate="" the="" income="" pay="" tuition,="" and="" notion="" that="" drunken="" loser="" who="" their="" kid="" randomly="" got="" assigned="" live="" with="" in="" a="" 15="" by="" 12="" cave="" for="" year="" could="" derail="" his="" education="" bugs="" them="" no="" end.="" guess="" they="" just="" need="" lesson="" tolerance="" or="" something.="">></meanwhile,></p>

<p>Or a better job. And your view of dorm life and other students is quite negative. I don't know where your kids go to school, but mine don't view it like that.</p>

<p><<sheesh. if="" you're="" lucky="" enough="" to="" have="" a="" kid="" who="" hasn't="" had="" deal="" with="" binge="" drinking="" roommate="" than="" just="" count="" your="" blessings.="" no="" need="" be="" nasty="" the="" parents="" listen="" aggravation="" that="" situation="" entails.="" sort="" of="" like="" people="" are="" healthy="" *****ing="" about="" how="" self-centered="" get="" when="" they="" start="" chemo.="" lucky...="" keep="" quiet.="">></sheesh.></p>

<p>Uhh, I am under no obligation to "keep quiet" nor is a child having a drunk roommate anything like undergoing chemo. That's the thing - by controlling their lives, parents instill in their kids the inability to deal with life isssues so that everything becomes a major crisis. And it really isn't a matter of "luck" to raise kids who by college age can deal with situations on their own. </p>

<p>And not for nothing but if this were my post to someone else, it would have been deleted. Try to at least attempt to be civil, huh?</p>

<p>McDeb, according to you, anyone else's situation that is not the same as yours is made up.</p>

<p>And any kids who are not the same as yours are protected hothouse flowers.</p>

<p>And any parent who sees things differently from you is a controlling monster (starting with the OP).</p>

<p>In other words, anyone who disagrees with you, is wrong.</p>

<p>You have made ad hominem attacks on every poster on this thread who doesn't see things the way you do. I believe that that is the source of the incivility here.</p>

<p>One BIG caveat on arrest data--nearly all private schools have a private security force that are not sworn police. Most publics have a security force that ARE sworn police and are much more likely to go the formal arrest route.</p>

<p><<you have="" made="" ad="" hominem="" attacks="" on="" every="" poster="" this="" thread="" who="" doesn't="" see="" things="" the="" way="" you="" do.="">></you></p>

<p>Show me one.</p>

<p>Methinks I recognize the famous (now banned?) ctnynjmom's signature "pick it apart" style in Mcdeb's posts. Ditto the telltale "classify others' self defense as attacks on me" method.</p>

<p>Read some back posts and realize this is just virtual fencing (thrust/parry) for mcdeb.</p>

<p>1sokkermom-just a note-if drinking were engaged in by a small minority of students on a campus, and there were perhaps other behaviors also engaged in by a small minority of students-there would be no problem.
The issue is that apparently on many campuses drinking defines the
social scene and the culture. McDeb if you'd like to be acknowledged as a good parent, then I'm sure you are. Happily, you're not the only one out there!</p>

<p>This thread was also started under College Search and Selection. I was really impressed with the comments some of the college students made about their college experiences. There's nothing wrong with a young adult to have colleges preferences - they have to live and learn there for four years. Some prefer single sex colleges, some military, some LACs, some large, some small. These may not all be real life environments, but obviously they are very popular, and very successful graduates come from all of these different types of schools. If you are looking for an environment that isn't predisposed to a large drinking population, good for you! You know where you'll be happy, and no one should criticize you or your parents for your decisions.</p>

<p>McDeb: every post where you blame the student for the behavior of others, claiming that if they were better brought up they could handle things, and every post where you accuse the parents of being controlling--it's all about your condemnation of character, not the actual facts of the situation.</p>

<p>If u read the original post which is on the college search thread you'll recall that I was seeking suggestions and advice re schools where alcohol wasn't the center of student social life. That was all. Perhaps
we could start a thread to debate drinking/non drinking, but if anyone would like to get back on topic and discuss possibilities that would be
great.</p>

<p>Hello folks. Not meaning to butt in to what appears to be great fun for all but,</p>

<p>maybe someone can enlighten me. What is the preferred CC method for dealing with a troll ? I seem to forget.</p>

<p>
[quote]
One BIG caveat on arrest data--nearly all private schools have a private security force that are not sworn police. Most publics have a security force that ARE sworn police and are much more likely to go the formal arrest route.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Totally concur. I've never even looked at the stats for a public university and have no idea how to even go about judging whether they would be low or high.</p>

<p>At my daughter's school which has a private security force, the local police department routinely patrols the private roads on campus, just like any other neighborhood in town.</p>

<p>Actually some private universities employ officers who are sworn police. The university and the municipality divide up the city and the university police have full police authority, and responsibility, in the university district. They make real arrests, carry guns, etc. The municipal district attorney then takes over the cases. In some of these universities, the university police have assisted city authorities in investigations of university employees, or of the university itself, leading to arrests on campus and convictions. I.e. they are real police officers, not private security officers. This does make it difficult to compare these reports from one school to another, unless you know the details. </p>

<p>Interesteddad, I saw earlier in this thread the claim that low drinking schools are high drug schools. I have seen this come up before, and I thought it was you who provided a link to proof this is false. Do you have the data?</p>

<p>The suggstions that some have offered, if you can find them through the invective, probably would help: Drinking is more common at rural, isolated places in the northeast and midwest, particularly those with low student diversity and high frat activity. Most of this you can find out easily from a college guide. The problem is that this describes a lot of schools, some of which your D might like. So you may be better off identifying positive characteristics of schools that you seek, compiling a list of places, then checking their drinking stats as others have suggested. If you cannot find their stats online, as suggested you can write and ask for them. It might even be more efficient to compose a standard email and send it to each place that comes up for positive reasons. Hunting through the google results gets you to lots of dated data and broken links.</p>

<p>The substance free dorm option may make a school that has a high drinking rate, but that is otherwise appealing, a good option, in spite of hard drinking at the dorm next door.</p>

<p>An opinion: I would agree with those who suggested that this is more of an issue with smaller places. At a larger university you may find enough people with healthier approaches to entertainment, even if they are in the minority.</p>

<p>The OPE federal crime stats seem to indicate just the opposite. For example, in comparing similar LACs, the schools with a lot of liquor law arrests also tend to have higher numbers of drug law arrests and vice versa.</p>

<p>I think the notion that kids who aren't boozers are stoners is left over from the 60s and 70s. Today's kids aren't anything like the kids from 30 or 40 years ago. My sense is that kids today are more split along straight-arrow versus party-kid lines.</p>

<p>Dartmouth Alcohol and other Drugs Social Norms</p>

<p><a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/%7Ethestats/home.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dartmouth.edu/~thestats/home.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
Dartmouth has collected information about student attitudes, perceptions, beliefs and behaviors for decades. Since 1996, the data collection process has been conducted by Dartmouth's office of Evaluation and Research. </p>

<p>How is this research conducted?</p>

<p>A random sample of 1,200 students is created from a full listing (via Banner) of those who are on campus and enrolled in classes during the Spring term. That random sample is sent a blitz asking them to participate in the web-based survey. We usually offer some sort of incentive to people, such as a coupon for a Ben and Jerry's ice cream cone. Participants are promised confidentiality. After the initial e-mail request, usually another 2 or 3 reminder e-mails are sent. You can see some of the information survey takers get here. </p>

<p>Usually we get a high rate of return on these surveys, about 50-60%. We check the demographics of the respondents against the total population and find that a representative sample of students return the surveys. We get people who drink a lot, people who don't drink at all, and people who drink moderately. </p>

<p>The survey is conducted in the Spring term, usually a month after the term started. This means that most questions we ask about would not be influenced by any spring break activities. We also conduct this before Green Key weekend so that it measures more regular activities as opposed to out of the ordinary behavior that some people engage around big weekends.</p>

<p>The office of Evaluation and Research is directed by John Pryor, a Dartmouth alumnus from the class of 1984. Student research assistants who work in the office often help create the questions and interpret and report on the data analysis. Dartmouth's research in this area is actually well respected in the field and the College recognized as a leader.</p>

<p>The most recent survey, conducted in the Spring of 2002 with a 60% response rate can be found .

[/quote]
</p>

<p>In addition to the survey results there are also graphs and charts.</p>

<p>The 2002 alcohol survey focused on several key areas:</p>

<p>Alcohol Policy
Expectations of Alcohol Use
Behavior (use and consequences of use) </p>

<p>Policy</p>

<p>Forty-two percent of students thought that alcohol policy was too strict at Dartmouth, while 35% thought it was about right. More had no opinion (16%) than thought it was too lenient (6%).</p>

<p>There was widespread support for the following possible policies:</p>

<p>93% Offering alcohol-free residence halls
89% Using stricter disciplinary sanctions for students who engage in alcohol-related violence
68% Prohibiting kegs in residence halls</p>

<p>There was mixed support for:</p>

<p>45% Using stricter disciplinary sanctions for students who repeatedly violate campus alcohol policies</p>

<p>There was less support for:</p>

<p>31% Enforcing legal age restrictions on alcohol use
26% Parental notification for alcohol policy violations
10% Prohibiting kegs in fraternities and sororities
9% Making all residence halls alcohol-free</p>

<p>Expectations</p>

<p>What people expect when they drink alcohol has a great deal of influence on their drinking choices, and thus the survey asked some key questions used in expectancy research to examine this at Dartmouth. Only students who drink were asked to fill in answers to these questions.</p>

<p>Students were asked to agree or disgree to "For me, drinking alcohol..."</p>

<p>Widespread expectations</p>

<p>73% Makes me happy
70% Makes it easier to meet new people</p>

<p>Moderate expectations</p>

<p>59% Makes it easier to talk to people I am attracted too
56% Makes it easier to act on my feelings
55% Makes it easier to talk to people of the opposite sex
53% Makes it easier to forget pressure
50% Can negatively transform my personality
50% Gives me confidence
48% Can positively transform my personality</p>

<p>Less widely held expectations
(i.e., most students disagree)</p>

<p>39% Relieves boredom
20% Makes me less nervous about having sex
19% Makes me less accountable for my behavior
18% Limits other types of activities I am engaged in
17% Lowers my academic performance
15% Makes me feel lonely</p>

<p>Behavior</p>

<p>About half of the students think of themselves as either an abstainer (16%) or a light drinker (36%).</p>

<p>The survey also asks students to tell us how many drinks they consumed for each day in the past two weeks. A drink is defined as "a 12-ounce beer, a 12-ounce wine cooler, a 4 ounce glass of wine, a mixed drink, or a shot of liquor."</p>

<p>For the most recent Saturday night before the survey, 55% of students had nothing alcoholic to drink. Six percent had only one drink. Six percent also had 2 drinks. Another six percent had 3 drinks. Four percent had 4 drinks. Thus 77%, or 3 out of 4 students, had less than 5 drinks on a Saturday night. Numbers for the 2001 survey, shown below, were similar.</p>

<p>BACK ON TOPIC!!</p>

<p>By this time I forget if it has been mentioned or not but <strong>Scripps</strong> is considered a mellow school where drinking is concerned. Scripps is all female but is located in the 5 colleges (Pomona, Scripps, Claremont McKenna, Harvey Mudd & Pitzer.) Unlike the 5 colleges involving Amherst and Smith, there is no shuttle bus issue as these campuses flow from one to the next and are an easy walk; many coed social options. Thus many girls who would not consider a women's college might like Scripps after all. It has the rep of the quietest campus of the 5 colleges, a nice refuge when you come back you your dorm in the evening.</p>

<p>My D who is like OP's D liked the "culture" at schools like:</p>

<p>Haverford
Vassar
Bates
Smith
Lawrence Univ
Beloit
Grinnell</p>

<p>Other schools with more of a party culture but still in her comfort zone:</p>

<p>Kenyon
Carleton
Wesleyan
Trinity
Allegheny
Occidental</p>

<p>Schools a bit over her line (too remote, but very nice kids)
Hamilton
Colgate
Colby</p>

<p>One point about religious schools: when I grew up many party animals I knew were packed off to "dry" schools or Christian Colleges by their parents-- in a vain attempt to keep them out of trouble. Realize that there will be this hard core partier element at <em>any</em> school. </p>

<p>Re Pepperdine, when I lived in LA, my younger sister knew a group of internationals there who were unbelieveable partiers. Pepperdine is a "rich kids school" to some degree, and you get these Eurotrash kids with new Mercedes, apartments on the beach in Malibu, and a party attitude.</p>

<p>Hi Speckledegg,</p>

<p>Yes, I have a daughter who is finishing up her first year at Dartmouth. While there is drinking pretty much every campus in this country, my issue in these debates are painting schools with such wide strokes as to believe that all there is to do for students at schools like Dartmouth and Williams to do is to spend most of their waking hours drinking.</p>

<p>It could be very easy for me to sit back and let the discussions go on because it in the big scheme of things it does not directly impact me because I am not a drinker (never had been even though some of my best friends were college lushes and weed heads) and for what I know, my daughter who is not a drinker has found a very happy niche of like minded friends and is enjoying her first year at Dartmouth. Does she go to parties? Yep, does she feel any pressure to drink? Nope. She also mad a conscious decision to live in dorm cluster that had a reputation for being quiet and pretty much defacto sub-free. In the end every parent knows their kid and really has to have confidence in the child that they have raised. </p>

<p>One of the problems that I see with “drinking surveys” is that no one has yet consistently defined what constitute drinking as the person who comes in and has one drink or a social drinker is lumped into the same category as the binge drinker.</p>

<p>ID states:</p>

<p>
[quote]
For example, using the first-year survey you cite, 44.8% of incoming seniors reported drinking beer occasionally or frequently during their senior year in high school. At Dartmouth, the figure was 57.0% of incoming students. So logically, if you start with an enrolled freshman class that drank more than the national average in high school, you would expect the drinking rate on campus to be above the national average as well. College is not generally a time when prior drinkers stop drinking!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I totally agree with you on this statement as most of the drinking that happens on college campuses did not start once the kids got to college, as many were drinking long before they got there much to the chagrin of many parents.</p>

<p>Even though right now I am being sarcastic but the truth still remains that last time I checked, I did not see any questions on the college applications asking about someone’s current drinking habits . How does one beleive that we shoudl resolve this? You can't legally ask on the application if a person drinks and if you do do you think that a 17 year old will answer truthfully. In addition once they get on campus, at what point to you rescind the admission for "not being truthful in their application; at the first social drink or the first time you see someone drunk?</p>

<p>It's funny because I recently read a posting by a student who was choosing between Dartmouth and another school. He stated </p>

<p>Quote:
I like ****s atmosphere better, and find the kids there to be what D used to be, according to my parents and their friends: non-geeky. </p>

<p>Dartmouth has "gone geek" as a means of moving away from the drinking reputation.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Makes my heart happy to know they have "gone geek". It is not to say that drinking is not going on in Hanover because there is. Recently the Student Activies office began funding "party packs" consisting of Pizza and non alcoholic bevarages in an effort to let students know that they have options other than beer at frat parties. </p>

<p>"party packs" consist of 20 pizzas and 100 drinks delivered at midnight from Everything But Anchovies. The money for the packs comes from the Student Activities fund, or discretionary money employed for students' benefit. Social Event Management Procedure guidelines already require registered parties to provide food and nonalcoholic drinks, but the party packs make fulfilling this requirement much easier for houses.</p>

<p>"I had an inkling that if there was something better to drink that people would sometimes drink that instead of beer," Director of Student Activities Linda Kennedy said.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.thedartmouth.com/article...hor=&stext=EBAs%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thedartmouth.com/article...hor=&stext=EBAs&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>