non-trad (?) student applying to US undergrad

Student Lounge International Students
1

<p>Hello there,
this is the first message I’ve posted anywhere, in any forum, over the internet … :P (don’t poke fun…) I’m really excited … :)</p>

<p>However, as most of the people here, I’m in a bit of a situation and I am hoping somebody could help me out. In this post I’ll outline my general issue. I’ll give out the details to the kind people who are willing to accept “private messages” (PM). Sorry if the size of my post is discouraging ... :P</p>

<p>So, here’s how it goes:
I’m a 24 year old Non-U.S. citizen that received the total of my high school education at a French lycee in the Middle East, where I graduated in June 2003 by obtaining the French baccalaureate. </p>

<p>Following that, I went to France where, in order to pursue a medical education (the equivalent of the M.D.), I enrolled at PCEM1 (Premier Cycle des Etudes Medicales 1). It literally means the First Cycle of Medical Studies 1, the first of two years. The end of the first year is sanctioned by a “concours” that will grant graduation into the second year. I failed that “concours” after being granted the maximum two tries to rank among the first 10% of a 1500 class. </p>

<p>After two years of useless transcripts and no college diploma from France, I was able to get into a Jordanian medical school where I stayed for two years before leaving because of political unrest following the Amman attacks.</p>

<p>Following the advice of family and friends, I then went to Romania in October 2007 seeking the “French language” M.D. it awarded after six-years of study. However, I found out (on forums, licensing boards list…) just before the first semester exams that the “French language” M.D. was what some called a “tourist diploma”, in the image of those offered by some Carribean medical schools.
So, in May 2008, I decided to leave Romania in order to pursue a medical education in the USA from scratch, applying to the first year of undergraduate college.</p>

<p>As I’m completely unfamiliar with American higher education, I went through the forums where I found myself knowing less (!), and having more questions than answers. I know however that I have to take the SAT (I hope I’ll get admitted on the Coasts as Wikipedia says the Middle states prefer ACT) and get the required letters of recommendations. </p>

<p>In fact, now that I’m six years out of high school, I lost track of most of my teachers. As of now, I’m only in contact with my history and physics teachers. If everything goes as planned, I will enroll in spring semester (February) of computer science (university doesn't offer natural sciences courses !), thinking maybe I will have the opportunity to enhance my grades and get the necessary letters of recommendation; before taking my SATs this coming summer and applying for US colleges around December.</p>

<p>However, I don’t know which US undergraduate colleges to consider yet; as I don’t know which ones will give me a fair chance of getting into their medical school later on ( I know that med schools prefer their own undergraduate alumni and that some won’t even consider international students, no matter where they got their undergraduate education ). </p>

<p>What are my chances of getting into a “reputable undergraduate program” given my old age and my “international” status? Will obtaining good SAT scores on more than one occasion demonstrate consistency of good academic level?</p>

<p>I will be extremely grateful to anyone who can shed some light on the issue and advise me on what to do next.</p>

<p>Bless you.</p>

2

<p>Hi intstu. Let me tell you what I know. You seem to have enrolled in colleges after your high school. My guess is that colleges in US would consider that as post secondary education and so you will not be able to apply as a freshman(start from scratch i.e).</p>

3

<p>Your plan does not seem to make sense. Have you considered talking to a counselor in your country who understands the US process? In many countries that is available free. Or call a few US colleges you are interested in and talk to them about what you want to do.</p>

<p>You also need to understand the cost of US colleges and med schools which are many times higher than they are in most countries.</p>

4

<p>InterStu: Your age will not be an issue. In many countries it is customary for all young men to spend at least a few years in the military after their upper secondary school education and they still go on to college in the U.S. That said, it is likely that you would be one of the older entering students in most four-year colleges. </p>

<p>Admissions to four-year colleges is more competitive for international students than Americans, but if you have good TOEFL and SAT/ACT scores, a solid transcript and positive teacher recommendations, you should be fine. Just because you want to go to medical school doesn't mean that you should only consider large universities with hospital facilities. Many smaller liberal arts colleges as well as other smaller universities have great pre-med programs that would prepare you to enter the best medical schools in the U.S.. However, you are right when you say that it is very difficult for international students to get accepted to medical school in the U.S..</p>

<p>If you browse around these forums you will find a lot of useful information. I suggest that you begin your process by reading up on the different requirements and the required standardized tests (SATs, etc.). Make a timeline for yourself: you will have to apply for entry in 2010 and should outline your time from now until then. Figure out a good time for test-taking, compile a list of universities/colleges where you want to apply, etc. Again, this forum will be very helpful as you work your way through all this stuff. Good luck!</p>

5

<p>Thank you all for your replies, I never thought they would be so swift ... :)</p>

<p>For one thing, can anyone confirm neethu 16’s claim that being a former college student, I wouldn’t be able to apply as a freshman undergrad (i.e. form scratch)? In order to be competitive, I need to have a steady GPA 4.0 throughout my undergrad years and an MCAT 35; I believe that starting from scratch is essential; as my former college grades are somewhat average. Isn’t there any way around becoming a transfer student?</p>

<p>Hmom5:
Exactly what part of my plan doesn’t make sense? Is it the fact that I applied (technically, I didn’t enroll yet) to the spring semester program at the American University here to enhance my grades? Or is it doing it for the recommendations that doesn’t make sense? is it my time outline for test taking and applying to US colleges? Or is it applying to the “expensive” U.S. colleges altogether? My parents think that if I come out of the spring semester with excellent grades, the US admissions officers would somewhat overlook the average grades I got in my former years of college. What do you think?
As far as advisors and counselors are concerned, the only ones that claim to offer advice on U.S. higher education are those advisors offered by Amideast, a private SAT training and test-taking center. They certainly weren’t free. I wasn’t satisfied with their answers as they invariably give reassuring comments that agree with you (sure, why not, certainly, check the internet …)
When I went to see the French high school I attended eight years ago, the faculty (they have no such thing as advisors) didn’t offer me any advice on my issue; probably out of ignorance. Their reluctance to give advice about competing educational systems wouldn’t surprise me either.
As for contacting U.S. colleges, I thought maybe it would be best to wait and see how this discussion turns out. You might still attract my attention to issues I have overseen.
I’m also fully aware of the high costs of U.S. higher education. However, I also believe one gets high quality education and prestige that might entitle you to higher salaries.
Thanx again for your reply</p>

<p>Swedefish:
I agree with the fact that “liberal arts colleges” are a sufficient medical school requirement. Maybe it is true for U.S. citizens. But being an “international”, I think that enrolling (and succeeding) in a tougher science major would make me stand out among medical school applicants later on. What do you think?
Also, when and how many times should I take my tests? I thought that maybe taking the required tests many times would demonstrate that the eventual good scores I obtain weren't just fortunate events.</p>

<p>Thank you all again for your interest. I would be so grateful if you can get friends you might have in the pre-med and med forums to have a look at this thread.</p>

<p>Please stay in touch.</p>

<p>Bless you all.</p>

6

<p>well... i took 3 years off from studies and the first thing colleges asked me was " did you enroll in any other college or institution?" and if you visit admissions sites, they would have stated clearly, if you had already enrolled in other institutions you cannot apply as a freshman.</p>

7

<p>As far as liberal arts colleges are concerned, they often have undergraduate science programs that are on par, if not stronger than at many larger universities. At a liberal arts college you would receive more personal attention and would have an easier time doing research and other work for professors. Plus, LACs tend to be generous with financial aid to international students as they generally look at need as opposed to scores when time comes to distribute financial aid. Some of them are also SAT optional and might be worth adding to your list in case you don't perform well on the SATs. Because you're at a liberal arts college doesn't mean you can't major in a science!</p>

<p>I think you should allow time to take the SATI at least twice. Also figure out which SATIIs you'd be good at. The TOEFL is easy but you should definitely prepare for it. </p>

<p>If you don't mind me asking: what is your financial situation like? If you are able to pay your way through college and medical school, your prospects for admission increase dramatically. You don't have to tell the colleges where you apply that you have pursued higher education previously. However, you will need a good answer to the question: "What have you been up to in the past six years?"</p>

8

<p>I think your situation is unusual enough that you need to talk to admissions officials directly - I don't think any of us have come across such a situation before.</p>

<p>You're enrolling in the American University - is there a lecturer, professor, administrator there who is sufficiently familiar with the American higher education system to help you in the capacity of a college counselor? Ask around, because in your case, I think personal guidance is necessary. It's simply too unusual for people who aren't in the admissions loop to tell you what's possible and what's not.</p>

<p>Since you're applying for the Fall 2010 cycle, that gives you quite a bit of time. Use this time to figure out where you might want to apply to, what the typical admissions criteria are. In your case you'll especially want to know the SAT score range, since you haven't taken your SATs yet. If you're taking your SATs in the summer, take your SAT Is in May and SAT IIs in June, then decide whether or not to retake when you get your results. You probably have to do the TOEFL as well, but that should be relatively simple.</p>

<p>I think what we can help you with at this point is figuring out which schools you might be able to apply to - especially financially speaking - and on how you might contact them and when (now is not a good time, for instance). Essays and so on will come later in the admissions process.</p>

<p>Swedefish: Many colleges specifically state that if the applicant has matriculated at a college-level institution, or has enrolled and taken 32 or more credits at a college-level institution, he must apply as a transfer. However in this case the OP would greatly benefit from being able to apply as a freshman, especially since it's highly unlikely his credits would transfer... I think opening a dialogue with adcoms here is absolutely essential.</p>

9

<p>You need to start by reading everything, and I do mean everything, at <a href="http://educationusa.state.gov/undergrad.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://educationusa.state.gov/undergrad.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Then you need to make an appointment with the counselors at the advising center nearest to where you live. You can find it at</p>

<p>[EducationUSA[/url</a>]</p>

<p>I used to work with these people when I lived in Venezuela and they truly know their stuff. And, when they don't know how to help you, they will help you figure out where to get the information you need.</p>

<p>You have completed some college level work since you graduated from secondary school (French Bac.), this makes you a transfer applicant to colleges and universities in the USA. But since each college/university will decide which of your courses will transfer and which won't, you may very well need to complete a full four year undergraduate degree. In other words, you may start out as a freshman level student even though you have had to complete a transfer (or transfer-like) application.</p>

<p>But, you do have to think long and hard about your whole notion of coming to the US to do an undergraduate degree and then applying to medical school here. That would be eight years plus internships, etc. Where do you want to practice medicine? What makes you think that you will actually get into medical school in the US? How are you going to pay for all of this? Depending on the languages you speak, there are other international medical schools (my friend's son graduated in Costa Rica) that may be options for you. If your ultimate goal is to practice medicine in the US, to a certain extent it doesn't matter where you go to medical school because in the end whether you get your license depends on whether you pass your medical board exams. </p>

<p>To help get a handle on the whole US medical school thing, you should read the Med School forum here at CC. Here's a link</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-medical-school/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/pre-med-medical-school/](&lt;a href="http://educationusa.state.gov/home/education-usa/global-left-nav/education-usa-advising-centers/center-directory%5DEducationUSA%5B/url"&gt;http://educationusa.state.gov/home/education-usa/global-left-nav/education-usa-advising-centers/center-directory)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>You can also reach it by clicking on Discussion Home in the upper left of this screen, and then scrolling down.</p>

<p>Wishing you all the best.</p>

10

<p>Happymom covered most of my thinking. You are a transfer, there is no way you can start from scratch. SATs taken after you start college are not accepted by many schools. While it might be a slight advantage to have attended the college where you want to go to med school, it's not significant enough to choose colleges based on this. </p>

<p>I'm also wondering why you want to give up all the ground you've covered. Starting over now would mean you will be in your mid thirties when your education is done. Then there's the expense.....</p>

11

<p>Wow, you certainly seem to have had an extremely interesting life!</p>

<p>I don't know if I'm wrong about this, but isn't it almost impossible/extremely hard for international students to get accepted to American med schools?</p>

12

<p>Hello again … :)</p>

<p>Swedefish:
Thanx again for your interest.</p>

<p>What you tell me about LACs is very seducing but I’ll have to admit that I’m quite suspicious about liberal arts colleges. It seems relatively too good to be true; what’s the catch? Otherwise I suppose they would be flooded with applications. Why wouldn’t a “reputable undergraduate” college require the SAT? (What’s up with the “reputable undergraduate program” quote I see allover medical schools’ websites, anyway? Do you know of any “internationals” who got into med school from an “unknown” undergrad college?) LACs are not the same as community (2-year) colleges, are they? </p>

<p>In fact, while we were waiting for the advising conference at the test center I mentioned in earlier posts, we approached whom we thought at first to be an advisor, only to find out he was the representative of a community college. We explained to him my situation; to which he suggested attending his community college (2-years) before a guaranteed transfer to the third year of a 4-year college nearby, where I would earn my B.Sc at the end of the fourth year. However, I found through research that courses received in community colleges will seldom be considered by med schools. Why is that? What’s wrong with community colleges?!</p>

<p>Concerning the financial issue, I guess financial aid couldn’t hurt … :) I read most U.S. citizens will eventually get some kind of financial aid (does this statement take into account bank loans, state aid reserved to U.S. citizens, etc. ?) for their college education. Is that true for “internationals” and what is covered by the aid? Most of the colleges I researched require of “internationals” to pay for part or the totality of the four years in advance. Will applying for financial aid decrease my odds of getting accepted or will they just deny the aid and still consider my application?
With the economic crunch and states like California and New York cutting their college funds, what will be the impact on “international”? Do you know of any states that have survived the economic crisis, education wise? Concerning “what *’ve been up to in the past six years”, what’s the excuse of others who have taken “time off”?</p>

<p>Phantompong:
I thought maybe I’d better wait until I’m actually enrolled at the American university here before inquiring about studying in the USA. </p>

<p>Any advice you could give me about the colleges I should apply to is very welcome! :) However, I fail to see the reason of not contacting them right away? Please explain.</p>

<p>Also, will my history and physics teachers, who have know me for almost six years up to my high school graduation, be sufficient for the letters of recommendation requirements? Or will the letters have to come from the latest instituion i've attended: the American University. After all, we'll only get to know each other for a couple of semesters! Is that sufficient?</p>

<p>Thank you all for your replies … :)</p>

13

<p>While I was browsing around for colleges, I came across some interesting statistics about international students attending universities of the American south. In fact, 14% of attending students are international. I wonder how many of the former are from Latin America (Mexico, etc …). Are there any kinds of agreements between Latin America and the United states? My concern is that this figure doesn’t really represent international students from allover the world. Do you think I’ll be at a disadvantage for admission and financial aid? (Myself being a NON-CITIZEN of the USA’s southern neighbors)</p>

<p>thanx</p>

14

<p>InterStu</p>

<p>You really, truly, need to think long and hard about your options. You have failed out of a medical school program in France, and dropped out of medical school programs two more times (Jordan and Romania). This academic history is going to require a powerful lot of explaining. Depending on who is reading your applications, it can look like you have dealt with some very special challenges. It can also look like don't truly have the dedication it takes to get though medical school. Why can't you just go back to med school in Jordan or Romania, stick it out for four more years or so, and get that degree and get on with your life?</p>

15

<p>Hey there. I'm back. I was busy for a while with things that kept me away from the forum. As a matter of fact, I enrolled in the computer science major of the American University I mention above.
I think it's about time I started contacting U.S. colleges for inquiries about my situation ( eventhough I was told above not to. And never got an explanation as for the reason ... :S )
I've never sent an e-mail to a college before. So i'm not exactly familiar with the etiquette.
Should I create a new "serious" (perhaps my name before the @ ?) e-mail address ?
Should I consider the e-mail I'm about to send as the only opportunity I'll get to explain my situation i.e should I explain everything from the start or should I go step by step, through subsequent e-mails ? How much info should I give out ? ( How much info is too much info ) Stuff like that.</p>

<p>Please advise</p>

<p>Bless You</p>

16

<p>I'm a non traditional international too, wahay!</p>

<p>Okay, firstly.. LACs are not the same as 2 year community colleges at all, many are on a level as the top Universities, it's just a different type of education. Some are equally as difficult to get into as top universities.</p>

<p>You're under 25 which means your financial aid will be determined by your parental income. If your family income qualifies you then at some places you will get as much financial aid as you need but at most schools it will hinder your application.</p>

<p>What exactly was the type of program you enrolled on, was it a degree? Can you clarify your situation with the American University, what is it you're planning to do there?
If you are absolutely no longer enrolled then you may still qualify as a freshman, but I think some colleges have different transfer policies so you'd have to check your circumstances against the individual places you're applying to.</p>

<p>As for SATs, don't worry about how many times to take them. There's no set amount. In all honesty, I'm going to do my best to just take them once! I hate exams! :)</p>

<p>Are you absolutely set on medical school? Why did you drop out the first time? I don't know anything about med school but I've heard it is a lot more difficult for an international applicant to be admitted to med school in the US than for another type of degree. What about studying a different type of scientific subject?</p>

<p>What country are you based in now?</p>

17

<p>Hello,
You're asking for advice on this forum so let me be frank: I think you misunderstand the US educational system and have unrealistic expectations. happymomof1 made some excellent points and I think you should go back and read her comments. I don't like to discourage people from applying but in your case I would say save your money and time and think hard about what your goals and abilities are.
1- You will have difficulty getting into a decent undergraduate program with your background. You have failed out/dropped out of three programs and this will be impossible to justify to any competitive program. It's sometimes possible to explain why this would happen for one program but three is really very worrisome. Even if you get get an excellent score on your SATs no one will care because you would not be competing with the general pool of 17-year olds.
2- The reason why I said that you misunderstand the US system is because of your comments about financial aid. Some 17 year-olds may be excused for thinking that money in the US grows on trees but a mature individual would understand that any institution in the US has limited funds and that if there is financial aid available it will go to exceptional individuals. Furthermore finaid for internationals is one of the most discussed topics here and it doesn't seem like you've done your homework.
3- If you can pay for college you may be able to get into one in the US, but you'd have to compromise and drop your mistrust of small colleges and apply broadly. I would say that given your background you will not get into a college that will be good enough to get you into a US medical school.
4- US medical schools are very difficult to get into. Even assuming you can get in, if you are not a US citizen/PR you would also have to come up with full tuition and living expenses ($200K) upfront.
5- You were in an MD program in Romania, why did you give that up? Carribbean med schools (and probably your non-selective Romanian one too) are second rate compared to US med schools but an MD is an MD, and so long as you pass the licensing exam and get accepted into any US residency program you will be able to practice in the US if that's what you want.
Sorry for the brutal honesty. It sounds like you have several opportunities to do great, including being in a compsci program right now so why not stick with it and don't waste any more time.</p>

18

<p>i totally agree with happymomof1 on the EducationUSA thing. you should definitely make a visit</p>

19

<p>Can anyone tell me which universities are more likely to admit foreigners into their med schools?</p>

<p>Assume that the said foreigner (non-U.S. citizens, no green card, just student visa) has completed 3/4 of premed at U.S. institution.</p>

<p>Thank you for the quick reply.</p>

<p>Good luck to anyone who needs it.
:)</p>

20

<p>@InterSTU, what happened? Are you now enrolled in a US undergrad college/uni?</p>

<p>[International</a> Students and Medical School Policies](<a href=“http://www.fiu.edu/~preprofc/International_Students_School_Policies.htm]International”>http://www.fiu.edu/~preprofc/International_Students_School_Policies.htm) Here you go.</p>