<p>My first post: We're planning a Northeast/Mid-Atlantic college tour this summer with D, a rising HS junior. She's strong on humanities, especially Classics but also modern Romance languages, literature, history, philosophy, theatre (including performance). She'll have had 6 years Latin & 4 years Greek by the time she starts college, including 2 years at the college level (Minnesota or Macalester) in her HS jr & sr years under a state program that pays for eligible HS students to take college courses. She's drawn to northeastern LACs but many, including some very good ones, don't have enough depth in Greek & Latin to satisfy a student coming in with that much background. </p>
<p>Right now Brown is at the top of her list because it has something of an LAC feel but has phenomenal strength & breadth in Classics (and a lot more). We're not inclined to grab for the HYP brass ring, but expect her stats to be strong enough to compete most places. We're also looking at Bryn Mawr, Wellesley, Smith, Cornell, Columbia, Barnard, possibly Middlebury, Bowdoin. We've also looked at Michigan (Dad's alma mater) but she doesn't like the size and has a strong geographic preference for the Northeast.</p>
<p>Do your trip arranged by geography, rather than one particular department. Her interests appear to be so varied that looking at the big picture (size, location, campus culture, etc.) will probably end up being more important. You listed at least six different departments among her interests.</p>
<p>For example, if you visit Philadelphia to see Bryn Mawr, you are five minutes from Haverford and 15 minutes from Swarthmore.</p>
<p>Likewise, a day in Northhampton would easily let you see both Smith and Amherst.</p>
<p>This Google map shows where most of the LACs are located which might help visualize a driving trip a little easier.</p>
<p>Has she checked out Wesleyan? We have a pretty good classics department, though probably not with as much Greek and Latin as she'd like, but from her other interests, I think the College</a> of letters might interest her, and it appears that they have a classics specific option, as well as romance languge options.</p>
<p>BTW, here are the top 30 producers of future "Other Humanities" PhDs (per graduate) in the most recent 10 year period. By process of elimination looking at the categories, "other humanities" is basically Classics (greek or latin).</p>
<p>PhDs per 1000 grads
Academic field: Other humanities</p>
<p>PhDs and Doctoral Degrees:
ten years (1994 to 2003) from NSF database</p>
<p>Number of Undergraduates:
ten years (1989 to 1998) from IPEDS database</p>
<p>Note: Does not include colleges with less than 1000 graduates over the ten year period<br>
1 St John's College (both campus) 18.3
2 Reed College 9.2
3 Swarthmore College 6.0
4 Carleton College 5.5
5 Haverford College 5.4
6 Hampshire College 5.1
7 Williams College 4.9
8 Bryn Mawr College 4.9
9 Yale University 4.6
10 Amherst College 4.5
11 Vassar College 4.4
12 Pomona College 4.2
13 Wesleyan University 4.1
14 Princeton University 3.9
15 University of Chicago 3.7
16 University of Dallas 3.4
17 Oberlin College 3.3
18 Wellesley College 3.3
19 Harvard University 3.2
20 Whitman College 3.1
21 Rice University 3.1
22 Bennington College 3.0
23 Wheaton College (Wheaton, IL) 3.0
24 Bowdoin College 2.9
25 Antioch University, All Campuses 2.8
26 Columbia International University 2.8
27 University of the South 2.7
28 Principia College 2.6
29 Stanford University 2.6
<p>thanks for all the posts. I agree we don't want to lock ourselves into any particular major at this early stage since D's interests are very broad and may go off in many possible directions, but because her interest and background in classics are so strong, an insufficiently strong program in that field could disqualify some LACs from serious consideration at this stage (subject to reversal later as her interests change). Ideally we'd find a school that can deliver the classics she wants, but also has strengths in literature, romance languages, philosophy, etc. That's why Brown is so attractive, but they're also so highly selective that it has to count as a "reach" for pretty much any applicant. </p>
<p>That's also why I'm a little skeptical of a school like Holy Cross, which may be terrific in classics but possibly not as strong in other humanities fields (though I could be persuaded otherwise). We'll take a look at Vassar & Wesleyan and possibly add them. I've got a keen eye on Bryn Mawr which seems to offer real depth in classics but is otherwise a small LAC. Most of the other schools that are sufficiently deep in classics are larger, including HYP, Cornell, Chicago, Michigan, Berkeley. So you see our dilemma: how do we find a small LAC that also has depth in a particular field in which D is exceptionally well qualified?</p>
<p>By the way, we've already visited Brown, Wellesley, Smith, Amherst, Williams, Columbia, Barnard, and generally know the territory quite well from years living on the East Coast, so mapping out the trip is not a problem.</p>
<p>I'm curious why you say Bryn Mawr has real depth in classics, but not other LACs? From looking at the course catalog, Swarthmore offers at least as much, especially Latin, and especially when you look at all of the honors seminars and "directed studies" (one-on-one class).</p>
<p>I'm wondering if you found the full course listing and description of majors/minors or just the abridged website that doesn't include the seminars or alternate year courses? Here's the full description:</p>
<p>Also, keep in mind that a Classics major will in almost all certainty spend as much as one of the four years studying in Greece or Rome...often at the ICCS program in Rome.</p>
<p>Interesteddad, Swarthmore looks promising & should be on our list, but again is a "reach" for just about everyone; Bryn Mawr slightly less so. To be clear, I don't mean to put down other LACs, I'm just asking around. But in our investigations so far, we've found that many of them just don't go very deep in this field, for understandable reasons---faculty are expensive, and student demand is limited. FYI, Bryn Mawr, which also has a highly regarded graduate program in classics, lists 6 classics faculty, Swarthmore only 4, but an advantage of both is that they're part of the "Quaker consortium" along with Haverford and Penn, allowing students at any of the 4 schools to take classes at any of the others, making Swarthmore's strength in the field a plus for Bryn Mawr and vice versa. Similarly the "Five Colleges" consortium (Amherst, Smith, U Mass, Hampshire, Mount Holyoke) is a possibility, although Hampshire doesn't offer classics and I'm not sure the overall academic quality at UMass is comparable. These multi-college pooling arrangements make a lot of sense in a field like classics where everyone needs to teach intro and intermediate Greek and Latin but there's limited demand for upper-level courses.</p>
<p>poi, Colgate looks promising. We're not familiar with what your other suggestions offer but will look into them, thanks.</p>
<p>We are aware of the ICCS and College Year in Athens programs, available at most good LACs. But that will still leave D looking for at least one or two advanced Greek and one or two advanced Latin courses in her freshman, sophomore, and senior years, after already having done some college-level advanced Latin while still in HS. LACs that offer that much advanced Greek & Latin are not a dime a dozen. Another thought we've had is that some US schools have exchange programs with Oxford and Cambridge, both terrific in classics. A year of intensive Oxbridge tutoring in classics might be an attractive alternative to ICCS or CYA, or at least worth considering.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Interesteddad, Swarthmore looks promising & should be on our list, but again is a "reach" for just about everyone; Bryn Mawr slightly less so.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Indeed on the reach... Bryn Mawr would be a school I would consider strongly as complement to more selective options on a college list. </p>
<p>I was just trying to understand the thinking a bit better. Your daughter should really contact the head of each school's Classic department, by e-mail and then maybe for a cup of coffee on your visits, to get their feedback on where she would place into a course sequence based on her college courses. Not only would this be a great way to evaluate what each college can do for an individual student, but -- with Classics majors a diminishing breed -- making herself known like that could be advantageous in admissions.</p>
<p>bc, welcome. Since you've already visited Williams, it may be off the list for other reasons, but I would mention that their Classics program, while a smallish department, is actually quite good, especially in tandem with other humanities. </p>
<p>In addition to shared study abroad programs, the Williams at Oxford program is especially appealing for Classics majors:
[quote]
Williams-Exeter Programme at Oxford, which allows them to work one-on-one with tutors on ancient authors and topics that they have chosen in consultation with the Classics Department.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Theater as an extracurricular is also very strong and there are many performance opportunities, even for non-majors.</p>
<p>PS, I went to Michigan myself and I'm an LAC convert. Great education, notably classics, but a very different style of teaching than is available at an LAC.</p>
<p>Thanks for these additional suggestions, we'll take a look. Williams looked good to me but less so to D, partly due to its isolated location and lack of much in the way of "college town" stuff, partly due to her perception of "snootiness"----a fatal flaw to her mind, and one that also applies to HYP among others, but interestingly, not to Brown. She's a big lefty-egalitarian-vegan-peace-and-animal rights type with a great appetite for academic achievement but little tolerance for snobbery, intellectual or otherwise, so these atmospherics matter a great deal to her. </p>
<p>It would be easy to dismiss this as so much subjective nonsense, but I firmly believe that a college should "feel" right to the individual student. This, after all, is going to be your home and your life for four years, and I think it should be a place you can fully embrace from day one if at all possible. As Dad did Ann Arbor, back in the day. In the end, being in a place where you're going to be happy, comfortable, and productive for four years may be more important than marginal differences in academic quality. So for now at least, Williams is probably off the list.</p>
<p>
[quote]
She's a big lefty-egalitarian-vegan-peace-and-animal rights type with a great appetite for academic achievement but little tolerance for snobbery, intellectual or otherwise, so these atmospherics matter a great deal to her.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>She should look at Yale. D is a Classics major there, the dept. is excellent, and there's very little in the way of snootiness (the same with H and P, BTW). If she's looking for opportunities for community service, it's hard to beat Yale: Dwight</a> Hall. Not to mention that they have terrific vegan food: Vegan</a> Dining Options</p>
<p>bclinton, I never argue with the kids. If it doesn't feel right the first time around it's most likely not going to feel right later. But for what it's worth there are no shortage of lefty-egalitarian-vegan-peace-and-animal rights types" :) at Williams and no more snobbery than you'd find at any Eastcoast elite.</p>
<p>Your daughter is me but younger (rising senior here). I have the same Latin & Greek background, so I know just what problems you're facing. This is what I suggest:</p>
<p>Bryn Mawr is by far the best LAC for classics. Its Latin is phenomenal and its Greek is hard to beat also. There's a graduate program there, so she won't have problems finding appropriate classes. Holy Cross has an excellent program that gives full rides for classicists, but the atmosphere is very religious indeed. Princeton is similar to an LAC and has the nation's strongest undergraduate program in classics.* I know this violates your no-big three criterion, but you should still consider it. Fordham and Hunter College CUNY would probably make good safeties. Both have excellent programs with access to graduate classes. Fordham gives full-tuition scholarships to National Merit Semifinalists and Hunter gives tuition, room, and a laptop to people in its Macaulay Honors College.</p>
<p>I would veer away from Wellesley and Smith. There are few advanced classes in Latin at these schools and almost none in Greek. (This is largely true even in the Five Colleges.) Both will be necessary if your daughter wants to pursue graduate school.</p>
<p>I would also point out that, even in a big research university, classics will always be a small department. That can make the experience more LAC-like, at least in terms of personal attention from professors, etc. On this note, I would ask her to look at the course listings in classics at Michigan, Berkeley, and the University of Washington (an EXTREMELY good classics program). If she likes Cornell, I think she should like Michigan also once she gets a sense of the culture in the honors college there. Remember, Cornell is a large, undergraduate-focused institution too.</p>
<p>Please feel free to PM me! Classics is a tiny world, and your daughter seems to have a lot in common with me. We'll meet at some time--why not now?</p>
<p>*I get this claim from data I gathered from the institutions whose classics departments occupy the top 20 ranks in the National Research Council's rankings. Of the professors at these schools, the greatest total of undergraduate degrees from a US university come from Princeton.</p>
<p>Penn also has a strong Classics department. In fact, in the NRC ranking it was #13 in the country, just below Cornell and above Bryn Mawr.</p>
<p>And of course, many of Penn's other liberal arts departments (e.g., Art History, Comparative Literature, English, French, German, Linguistics, Music, Religion, Spanish, Anthropology, Economics, History, Psychology, Sociology, etc.) were in either the top 10 or the top 20 nationally in the NRC rankings:</p>
<p>Here's more on Penn's Department of Classical Studies:</p>
<p>
[quote] THE DEPARTMENT
Penn has one of the most distinguished Classical Studies departments in the country. We offer courses at all undergraduate levels, from elementary language instruction to introductory and advanced courses in literature, history, and archaeology. Many of these require no knowledge of the languages and no other background. Faculty regularly teach at all levels, and since most classes are small, students have the opportunity to work closely with their professors. </p>
<p>The undergraduate program is further enhanced by the University's superb library holdings in Classical Studies and by the University Museum, which houses the country's largest archaeological collection.
<p>As the above excerpt from the department's web site points out, the presence of Penn's Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology--one of the largest and finest in the country--is a big bonus:</p>