Northwestern or Umich?

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
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<p>Thank you bclintonk and kmcmom. Great perspective and thoughts and really helpful. I’m a big believer in the child making the choice without undue influence (putting aside financial discussions), however, the only reason I’m on these boards is to try to help my D with her struggles to figure what she wants. If she knew for sure all would be easier.</p>

<p>She attends a small prep school where everyone seems to want to go to a tiny LAC, which is fine. Her attitude is those are not for her because “I don’t want to go to high school again”. That led her to think more mid-size was the answer - think WashU, Vandy, BC - but silly me convinced her maybe applying to one large, great research U made sense (thus Michigan).</p>

<p>So she gets in EA and seems to like it above all (likes the diversity, liberal side that many fall short on for her) but can’t help but gawk at the size. We tried to “shrink” it and on a revisit she looked at the RC but for whatever reason was not a fan.</p>

<p>I agree with the points you two have made, especially finding your own niche and making it a “smaller” place. Anyway, thanks for the perspective. She just has to get comfortable, or not, with the size. I would think others are dealing with this as well as Michigan causes that dilemma…great school but bigger than some thought they wanted.</p>

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<p>Bigdog - as know, when you have choices of very strong academic schools of all shapes and sizes (such as the Umich, Vandy’s, UCLA’s NC, NW’s, strong LACs), you are a lucky, lucky rising freshman. Nothing is better than choice. Then, as Alexandre and others have said, it comes down to fit, both academic program and environment. </p>

<p>For my son, he definitely wanted a big school as he wanted to meet tons of new people and he wanted the big school spirit, athletics that go along with it. He was from a large high school and was fine with with a larger school (in fact, he didn’t want to consider a small school). After visiting Umich a couple times, he just knew he would love it there and he has. The school spirit is so much fun for him, the diversity of friends he has made has been great and the academics (now finishing 1st yr. of Ross as a sophomore) have been the right level of challenge with strong, friendly classmates and excellent profs (for the most part - not all are created equal). </p>

<p>He is beyond hooked as a life-long Wolverine, and I couldn’t be happier for him or more pleased with Umich. </p>

<p>BUT, your D needs to find that same school where she just knows it is right for her.</p>

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<p>For what its worth, D applied to both UM and NU. Before she heard from NU, she decided she was going to UM. When she did hear from NU, she was wait-listed. She told me she was glad she was wait-listed at NU (she made no attempt to get off the wait-list) because even though she had decided to go to Mich., it would have been very hard to turn down NU. FYI, her only regret about UM is that her undergrad career is limited to four years… I think she would like to stay at UM for about 20 years. :)</p>

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<p>bclintock and kmcmom13, and the others who have posted (even Alexandre :)), thank you very much for your detailed and thoughtful posts. </p>

<p>It is true that if you have not gone to a large university yourself it is hard to get a real handle on what it would be like and how good the fit might be. I went to a very good (top 12) LAC and S1 attends a very good (top 25) LAC. I was a philosophy major myself, continued in grad school, and then ultimately earned a doctorate in another area. My D1 has applied to a mix of LACs, smallish to mid-sized private universities, and larger universities. She is quite bright but more involved and more of a leader than “intellectual.” I am sure she will be involved as an undergrad and also will mostly spend a full year abroad. She also craves an urban environment, and most of the schools she has applied to are in cities of various sizes. For example, NYU has been a favorite since she visited. I definitely think she could handle NYU, but I wonder if it will be too hard to gain/maintain focus. She likes Rochester a lot, more so over time, and she may well choose UR. She has applied to but not seen Michigan, Wash U, and Macalester. I could see her choosing any of those if she gets in as well. Vassar is another wild card. Maybe this will give some of my questions/comments some color.</p>

<p>Anyway, part of what I’m wondering about Michigan is whether it will provide the urban/city aspect she is craving, and a liberal/political slant, but not feel too overstimulating or overwhelming the way I think NYU might.</p>

<p>Of course where you end up getting in and money comparisons help with the weeding out process. I can’'t complain too much about the cost on Michigan, at least compared to the private options being considered, but it is hard to understand why Michigan would cost almost 25K more than Wisconsin.</p>

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<p>“Anyway, part of what I’m wondering about Michigan is whether it will provide the urban/city aspect she is craving, and a liberal/political slant, but not feel too overstimulating or overwhelming the way I think NYU might.”</p>

<p>The University of Michigan is located in downtown Ann Arbor. The campus, although clearly defined for the most part, is not enclosed. You basically cross the street and your on campus. Obviously, Ann Arbor is not NYC. It is a mid-sized, very liberal, city (population of 115,000). In terms of political leaning, I would say that UM is liberal, but not to the same extent as NYU, which is possibly the most liberal university in the country. </p>

<p>"…but it is hard to understand why Michigan would cost almost 25K more than Wisconsin."</p>

<p>Michigan shouldn’t cost $25k more than Wisconsin. The difference in CoA should be in the $13k/year range. There is no doubt that Wisconsin (same as UNC) is a great value. But it should be clear that UNC and Wisconsin are the outliers here, not Michigan. If you were too look at the cost of attending the top 50 universities in the US, only a handful would be significantly cheaper than Michigan.</p>

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<p>In my experience, Ann Arbor and UMich are definitely pretty liberal. That being said, most students there don’t seem especially concerned with politics in the same way students at Georgetown or Berkley are. Beyond the classroom, politics are seldom discussed and it’s not something most students are all that concerned with. NYU is also very liberal, perhaps more so than UMichigan, and I think politics are a more common source of conversation there. That’s not good or bad, it just depends on what your looking for.</p>

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<p>Finalchild, has your daughter determined an area of study at this point? What aspects of city life does she crave?
I have a hunch much would become clear for her on a visit, so I hope she intends to do so before making her decision.
If her desire for city life is a reflection of things like wanting access to attend myriad plays, musical events, etc, Umich has more than 400 calendared events each year. So in that sense, for an artsy kid, there is no shortage of activity or social life – much moreso than would be typical in a city that size, and driven in part by the student population. </p>

<p>My son considered seriously NYU Tisch for his specialty and enjoyed the urban aspects of NYU but preferred Umich in specific program and sense of college community/setting. He had also seriously loved University of Chicago, but the comparative small size meant what he wanted to study precisely wasn’t offered. UBC in Vancouver was also on his list. So he did choose Umich from among larger urban destinations. Which is why I think that nothing beats a visit to get the true feel of a place ;)</p>

<p>Ann Arbor is considered a top college town because of the way the school is central and integrated into the fabric of the community. I suspect that’s what gives it the vibrant feel.</p>

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<p>finalchild,</p>

<p>You really do have to visit. Since we are deciding I’m no expert on all things Michigan but we have visited twice and with three kids we have visited 20+ colleges and AA and Michigan provides an amazing college environment and setting. It is of course not a large city setting but it offers so much that in my opinion its tough to beat.</p>

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<p>Thanks…yeah, if she gets in she will definitely visit…some knowledgeable people who heard her list thought Mich seemed like the outlier, but she wanted to apply and apart from great academics I think she thinks the Mich/Ann Arbor vibe might be exactly what she is looking for. </p>

<p>And by political I don’t mean like Wesleyan chalking or something, although who knows once she is exposed to all that these schools have to offer.</p>

110

<p>reddog, trust me, Michigan students are very concerned with political and global issues. I have not compared Michigan to Cal in this regard, but I would estimate that the two are similar in this regard, though the topics of interest at Michigan would differ significantly from those at Cal. Many students choose Michigan for its top ranked political science department, so naturally, there will be many student activities on campus.</p>

<p>Michigan is also a leader in sending recent graduates to the Peace Corps. </p>

<p><a href=“http://files.peacecorps.gov/multimedia/pdf/stats/schools2012.pdf[/url]”>http://files.peacecorps.gov/multimedia/pdf/stats/schools2012.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://files.peacecorps.gov/multimedia/pdf/stats/schools2011.pdf[/url]”>http://files.peacecorps.gov/multimedia/pdf/stats/schools2011.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://files.peacecorps.gov/multimedia/pdf/stats/schools2010.pdf[/url]”>http://files.peacecorps.gov/multimedia/pdf/stats/schools2010.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://files.peacecorps.gov/multimedia/pdf/stats/schools2009.pdf[/url]”>http://files.peacecorps.gov/multimedia/pdf/stats/schools2009.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://files.peacecorps.gov/multimedia/pdf/stats/schools2008.pdf[/url]”>http://files.peacecorps.gov/multimedia/pdf/stats/schools2008.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Obviously, given the variety of academic offerings at Michigan, it is natural that there will be a great deal of intellectual diversity. As such, not all students will have an interest in global and political issues. But there is a sizeable chunk of students who do care and they are clearly felt on campus. </p>

<p>The student body is liberal, but not excessively so, and there is a fair share of conservatives, although they tend to keep quiet! ;)</p>

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<p>Thanks to all of you for this discussion. D has been accepted to Mich, and but it is the outlier on her list, big public vs. medium-sized privates. I went to UNC, and of course my two favorites we visited were UCLA and Mich. I had never read the “worst of both worlds” comments about medium-sized privates, but you guys have given me something to address with D.</p>

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<p>f is leaning towards northwestern at this point. Likes the more intellectual atmosphere of NU and the ivie league feel and likes that it is a medium sized school. Being encouraged from most people to choose NU too, so that might be part of it.</p>

<p>Wanted to thank everyone for their helpful posts on this thread though.</p>

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<p>Michigan has a very intellectual feel. I am not sure NU is more intellectual. But there is no doubt that NU feels smaller…or that most of his friends and peers would push him toward NU. Nobody can go wrong with NU. It is one of the best universities on the planet.</p>

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<p>I’ve actually spent a lot of time around Northwestern–I used to live just a few blocks away, and I know many faculty and alums. It’s a great school in many ways, but the vibe there is not intellectual at all. Yes, the students are smart, accomplished, high achievers, strivers. But they don’t go there for the intellectual vibe. Perhaps you’re confusing Northwestern with Chicago, which definitely has an intellectual vibe. </p>

<p>Northwestern has always been more pre-professional, with a bit of an artsy/dramatic flair and a heavy emphasis on Greek life. If you look at Northwestern’s most esteemed alumni, they’re not intellectuals. The list is heavy on arts/entertainment/media people (Ann-Margret, Warren Beatty, Richard Benjamin, Karen Black, Stephen Colbert, Cindy Crawford, Jane Curtin, Carlton Heston. Cloris Leachman, Shelley Long, Julia Louis-Dreyfus, Brent Musberger. Seth Meyers, Patricia Neal, Paula Prentiss, Tony Randall, Jerry Springer, McLean Stevenson), journalists (a bunch of NY Times and NPR reports and tons of big names in Chicago journalism), lawyers/judges (David Boies, Arthur Goldberg, John Paul Stevens), a few writers (Saul Bellow, Marge Piercy), and scads of politicians (Rod Blagojevich, Rahm Emanuel, Dick Gephardt, George McGovern, Adai Stevenson, Jim Thompson, and tons of big names in Illinois politics you wouldn’t know unless you lived there).</p>

<p>To me, this speaks of a brassy, “I’m going to be someone” culture, far more than an intellectual one. Which is consistent with how I’ve always seen Northwestern. I’m not knocking it; obviously it’s worked for a lot of very successful people, and that’s a very impressive alumni list. But intellectual it’s not.</p>

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<p>I think NU has an atmosphere balanced between preprofessional and intellectual. It’s not the “learn just to learn” mentality Uchicago has, but it isn’t really a “learn just to get a degree” mentality either. I think you get aspects of both those cultures at NU and theres a niche at NU for both pre-proffesional minded and intellectually driven students alike. </p>

<p>In either case, I think all students are motivated to do well academically, and coursework is their primary concern. </p>

<p>Umichigan is such a big school with so many different types of students. I mean you have kids there from the top of their high school class with near perfect SATs, and you also have kids who managed to get in with decent grades and OK SATs. On top of this the Umichigan students all have very different mentalities. Some there love the party/frat scene and get mediocre grades. Others immerse themselves in the high caliber academics of Umichigan and broaden themselves intellectually. And others simply do what they have to do to get their desired degree and desired job. My point is at Umichigan you can’t exactly pinpoint what the environment and feel is because there is such a varying and vast student body. That being said, you can find your niche there and there will always be students with the same mindset.</p>

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<p>I started my undergrad education at Umichigan and after a year I transferred to Northwestern.</p>

<p>Both are great schools I just came to realize Umichigan wasn’t for me. </p>

<p>Umich is a great school academically, but it is also quite a party school and there are a decent amount of kids there who aren’t all that interested in their coursework. As reddog said, the academic caliber of UMich students does vary significantly. I met kids who chose Umich over schools like Duke and Cal and Columbia and I also met plenty of kids who got in with 1750 SATs and barely in the top third of their class. Naturally with this wide range, some kids are going to be more academically invested than others. </p>

<p>Make no mistake, Umich is an amazing school that provides kids the full package college experience (academics, parties, sports, college town, clubs/organizations, ect) For me though I realized I wanted a slightly lower key social setting where academic achievement was more consistent among all students. In general at NU there are way fewer kids who are content with getting mediocre grades and riding on their schools name. Almost everyone here seems to be an ambitious go-getter, and it challenges me to be my best too.</p>

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<p>allcapella, I agree with most of what you say. The concentration of “type A”, very competitive students at Northwestern is higher than at Michigan (probably 80% vs 50%). However, while I am sure that out of 27,000 undergrads at Michigan, there will some who scored 1750 on the SAT and who were ranked in the 33rd percentile of their high school class, those will come few and far in between. Outside of the realm of recruited athletes and students who grew up under extremely demanding socioeconomic conditions, such students virtually do not exist at Michigan (probably less than 1%). 94% of last year’s freshman class graduated in the top 10% of their high school class and the mid 50% SAT range for last year’s freshman class was 1870-2170.</p>