Northwestern vs. Michigan

College Search & Selection
301

<p>"Actually UM earned 14.6% last year."</p>

<p>14.6% - wow, impressive!!</p>

<p>NU's endowment went up **22%[/b[ last year (not that it has any bearing on the quality of the school or the student body).</p>

<p>I see that barrons has graced us with more examples of his (or her) ability of analysis and deduction (the University of Washington is a fine school, but nowhere near where it is ranked with regard to research expenditures - at. no.2 ahead of UoM).</p>

<p>dstark - **k&s, so are you screwed if you go to Indiana's business school?</p>

<p>Should you try to go to a higher ranked school?**</p>

<p>dstark - you must be a pretty bright bulb to think that I went to Indiana's UNDERGRAD business program (hello!! we weren't discussing B-school), much less Indiana's B-school based on what I had written.</p>

<p>Btw, if you think you are going to get a high profile job here with that crappy grammar - you're in for a shock.</p>

<p>And btw, Indiana's B-school is perfectly more than respectable (I just wouldn't be presumptuous to compare the caliber of its student body, overall, with that of certain other B-schools).</p>

302

<p>k&s,
"Alex - "Of those 500 or so, I am sure a sizeable number went into Engineering, Journalism and teaching. How many of the remaining students landed jobs in Wall Street? Like I said, it is probably well under 100, most likely under 50. </p>

<h2>From Ross alone, 80 or so undergrads were hired by Wall Street's top firms last year. That's just the top companies like Goldman Sachs, Lazard, Lehman Brothers, Morgan Stanley, Deutsche, JP Morgran, CS First Boston, UBS, McKinsey, Bain, BCG and Booz Allen. Altogether, about 150 (40%) of Ross' 350graduating undergrads landed jobs on Wall Street."</h2>

<p>Well, University of Indiana sends a large no. of grads into I-banking as well (one year, Ind. is reportedly to have sent the 3rd or 4th largest nos. of grads into analyst positions) - while, Ind. is a fine school (and esp. their undergrad bus.), a person with an Indiana degree, in general, is going to be looked at differently from a person with a degree from an Ivy, Stanford, UoC, NU (and yes, UoM)."</p>

<p>I was responding to your post #286 in this thread.</p>

<p>I don't need a high profile job. Thanks.</p>

303

<p>barrons,
You estimated that it takes $10bn to generate $560mm in annual income. That is a 5.6% return. Thanks for informing me about the 5% spending rate. So I think you are saying that Michigan targets a higher rate of return so as to build some kind of cushion over and above the spending level, right? Do you know what that target level is? I am glad to hear that Michigan exceeded 5.6% in 2006. </p>

<p>Also, to clarify, Michigan did not earn 14.6% on that "extra" $10bn (if that is even the number) of endowment value that you estimate would be required to generate the $560mm. There was no rate of return because there was no investment. Those funds were given to Michigan by the state and the research funders. </p>

<p>As that cash flow is obviously an important factor in Michigan's ability to fund itself, can you or anybody else provide any insights on the prospects for state funding and future research grants? </p>

<p>And you are right-I don't know much about this endowment stuff (thankfully). But I do know enough to see that, without sufficient dollars, major universities are going to have to make some unpleasant choices and this will have long-term (and maybe even short-term) consequences for students and faculty.</p>

304

<p>$400 million from the state? We wish. Or does that include capital outlay? But I digress.</p>

<p>
[quote]
NU's endowment went up 22%

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I thought the metric being discussed was return on endowment, not endowment growth. Makes a big difference some years. I don't know what the earnings for either school are but be sure to compare apples to apples.</p>

<p>Since someone asked, placement data for Michigan is hard to come by. Generally speaking, business grads get good jobs, as do engineers--most have job offers (multiple, even) before graduating. We know that because Ross and COE both survey their undergrads. Michigan doesn't do a regular, comprehensive campuswide survey on baccalaureate graduates, however. We do know that about a quarter or more go on to grad school right away, and most of the rest find jobs they're apparently happy with, but beyond that Michigan couldn't put any statistics out there to make themselves shine (or not) against Northwestern or any other place that gathers this data systematically.</p>

305

<p>k&s, if you don't think endowment has any bearing on quality you might want to let harvard, yale, stanford, MIT and princeton in on that secret. They are the five privates with the largest endowments, and gee, most would put them at the top of the educational pyramid.</p>

<p>hawk, that was an astute observation on the endowment equivalent--no it does not allow the base to grow by the excess of return over spending as real endowment does. However those fund items tend to grow over time too so you are getting increased cash flow every year.</p>

<p>Yes that includes capital funding.</p>

306

<p>barrons - Uhh, and look at their respective enrollments. </p>

<p>As I had stated before - UT's endowment is more than twice as large as that for UoM, but that doesn't mean UoT is a better university or has a better student body profile.</p>

<p>And Penn's, Duke's, Dartmouth's and UoC's somewhat more modest endowments certainly don't seem to have hurt them much.</p>

<p>Context - barrons, context.</p>

307

<p>UT's endowment covers a much larger system with around 200,000 students and half a dozen medical complexes. </p>

<p>I would suggest that the limited endowment is what keeps Penn, Duke and U of C from moving up much more. U of C is losing top faculty all the time. Dartmouth is a niche player as much LAC as university. Same for Brown.</p>

308

<p>barrons,
from earlier posts,
What is the status of state funding in Michigan? Has it been declining in recent years? What is the outlook? </p>

<p>and a new question-What is the breakdown between general funding and capital outlays?</p>

309

<p>Outlook-better
<a href="http://www.umich.edu/%7Eurecord/0607/Feb12_07/00.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.umich.edu/~urecord/0607/Feb12_07/00.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Operating is around $320 M right now. The rest is capital.</p>

310

<p>
[quote]
What is the status of state funding in Michigan? Has it been declining in recent years? What is the outlook?

[/quote]

Well, my name isn't barrons, but...</p>

<p>It's been improving, but that's on a very low base and a great accounting trick that made a decrease look like an increase a few years ago. The previous deep cuts have not been restored. That means Michigan universities are getting the level of appropriations that are equivalent to what they were in around 2000. And that's without adjusting for inflation.</p>

<p>We're happy about the governor's recommendations but the State and the House haven't had their appropriations hearings yet--things could change.</p>

311

<p>One thing you guys fail to take into account:</p>

<p>It isn't everyone's goal to get a job on Wall Street... in fact, many wouldn't want a job on Wall St. if it were offered to them (myself included)</p>

<p>Seems rather arbitrary to evaluate a school based on ONE profession.. out of how many? only a select few in any large student body would have interest in IBanking/Consulting/etc</p>

<p>and, contrary to popular opinion, there's more value to a college education than simply instrumental, means to an end value. </p>

<p>I don't think it's crazy to think that not everyone is aiming for the most prestigious career they can possibly realize... however, if your only contact with the outside world is this message forum, you'd certainly think otherwise.</p>

312

<p>Not that it matters anyway because regardless of professional or academic aspirations, Michigan will open doors than only very few universities can open.</p>

313

<p>alex,
You make it all sound so very mysterious. Not sure what you are refering to. Depending on one's imagination, one could dream up some pretty neat/interesting/weird/scary/kinky/etc things. Can you expand on your comments?</p>

314

<p>Mysterious? Kinky?! LOL!!! I didn't realize I was leaving so much to the imagination. I was merely adding to Kazz' comment. When it comes to Wall Street, Michigan is one of very few universities that attract all the major companies on a frequent basis and they hire undergraduate students by the hundreds annually.</p>

315

<p>Ah disappointment.... I thought maybe you were going to spice things up a bit. God knows that this thread could use it. </p>

<p>Also, your NE regional arrogance is showing again (unintentionally and without malice I am sure). I hardly doubt that all the "major companies" recruit at Michigan (or anywhere else for that matter). Perhaps you were referring to the major Wall Street firms or the major consulting firms, but as kazz points out, that is not everyone's dream, even at Michigan. What is major to you in Michigan is, in very many cases, not major to people in other states and regions. As an example, for a student at UT, he/she would probably love to interview with the likes of Schlumberger or Apache or Anadarko or some other "major" energy player and likely (much) less interest in Wall St/consulting companies or the automobile industry in Michigan. Or consider the student at U Washington. Starbucks is undoubtedly a major company to them. Does Starbucks recruit at Michigan? (if you say yes, then I will be impressed) Major is in the eye of the beholder, but in any event, most employment and job growth in this country is not coming from the 'major" employers anyway. Small business is the source of most growth and I strongly suspect that Michigan is like most other schools in that a significant share of its graduates end up working for a small business.</p>

316

<p>Sorry Hawkette, I am a married man...no more spices! Hehe!!! </p>

<p>Yes, I was refering to Wall Street in particular. And I agree, most people don't really want to work on Wall Street. But I am not sure what you mean by NE regional arrogance. I am not from the NE, nor would I wish to live there. I actually chose to work in Europe over the NE when I graduated from college. </p>

<p>I am not sure where the majority of Michigan graduates end up working. I do know that the majority of Business and Engineering majors end up working for Fortune 500 companies, IBanks or Management Consulting firms. For example, the 10 largest employers at the College of Engineering last year were Intel (16 full time hires), Lockheed Martin (16 full time hires), General Motors (15 full time hires), General Electric (11), Raytheon (11), Capital One (10), Microsoft (10), Dow (9), Bank of America (8), Boeing (8) and Ford Motor (8). At Ross, out of 350 BBA graduates, the top recruiters were CS First Boston (14 full time hires), JP Morgan (12 full time hires), UBS (10 full time hires), Goldman Sachs (9 full time hires), Microsoft (8), Citigroup (7), Deutsche Bank (7), PriceWaterhouse Coopers (7), Bank of America (6), McKinsey (5), Morgan Stanley (5), Ernst Young (4) and Lehman Brothers (4). But Engineering and Business majors only make up a third of the total undergraduate population that actually seeks work upon graduation. Roughly half of Michigan students seeking work upon graduation are from the college of LSA and LSA does not keep record of employment statistics. </p>

<p>I notice that you mentioned Schlumberger a couple of times. It is a great company indeed. As it happens, they activelly recruit at the College of Engineering annually. In fact, a very good friend of mine was recruited for an internship and was offered a full time job by Schlumberger when he graduated.</p>

<p>Anyway, you are quite correct. Not ALL major companies recruit at Michigan. But I'd say the vast majority of major companies who recruit undergrads at university campuses will recruit at Michigan. </p>

<p>Companies recruiting at the College of Engineering
<a href="http://career.engin.umich.edu/Annual_Report05-06.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://career.engin.umich.edu/Annual_Report05-06.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Companies recruiting at Ross
<a href="http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentProfile2006.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.bus.umich.edu/pdf/EmploymentProfile2006.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

317

<p>Alexandre,
I, too, am happily married. Just hoping to liven up the conversation up a bit… :)</p>

<p>That list of recruiters and job placement is pretty impressive and I am coming to understand better why you feel so passionately about Michigan and its opportunities for students and graduates. It doesn’t change my previously stated conclusions/opinions on this or other threads, but I am learning as I read and participate in these discussions. While I don’t work for Schlumberger, I do know a fair bit about it and agree that it is a very good company that most people have never heard of (and almost no American can pronounce it properly the first time). </p>

<p>Re regional arrogance, you’ve probably sensed by now my distaste for the group that sets its life and worldview according to when the sun rises and sets on either side of the Empire State Building. I like NY for a lot of things, but I resent it greatly for the mindset that NY is the only place that matters and that the colleges that all of the local “masters of the universe” (I am a big fan of Tom Wolfe) attended are the only schools that matter. Unfortunately, this perspective is perpetuated and reinforced in the NE/CA mainstream media and much of the great intelligence (and great people/colleges/companies) of flyover country is ignored. Great arrogance results in the cultures of the NE and CA as far too many really do end up believing that they are smarter than everybody else just because he/she went to X college. Some of that arrogance and raw prestige-seeking is easily found on the various boards of CC. </p>

<p>With technology facilitating the devolution of educational excellence throughout the country over the past couple of decades, the NE no longer has a monopoly on educational excellence. The Education Establishment works to maintain the status quo, but challenges and new players and new thinking are popping up almost everywhere. There are truly great schools to be found in former backwater states like Missouri, Texas, Tennessee, Washington, Georgia, even Florida. These schools and their students and faculties don’t get the recognition that they deserve as attitudes move more slowly than reality. But, ultimately, the truth comes out and the cream rises whether it is a person from the fabled Ivies, someone affiliated with the University of Florida or an immigrant who just got off a boat from China or India and is attending Cal State-Heyward. </p>

<p>Not sure how I got into this topic and why I rambled on about this, but it is an exciting time to be a college student and family involved with the college scene.</p>

318

<p>A thrill seeker eh? </p>

<p>I am not too fond of NYC or California myself. NYC does not make my list of favourite cities to visit or live in. My favourite city in North America is Chicago, with Montreal coming in at a close second and either San Francisco, Toronto or Vancouver next. I also really like Boston, Charleston, DC and Seattle. Overall, I tend to prefer European cities and small college towns like Ann Arbor, Austin, Boulder, Gainsville, Madison etc... </p>

<p>I agree that New Yorkers have a unjustified sense of self-importance when it comes to their city or East Coast universities. I was in NYC just 3 months ago. I enjoyed the restaurants I dined in and the show I watched, but the rest of my visit was not that memorable. Well, maybe that's because Michigan lost to OSU when I was there and I am trying to block that out! </p>

<p>I also dislike putting up employment statistics or graduate school matriculation data because I feel education is about learning and self-development, not about placement into exclusive companies and elite graduate schools. I believe education is a highly personal venture, which is why I am often unwilling to participate in rankings debates. I would much rather group universities with peer institutitions. But if a university is slighted on this forum, I will defend it. And that doesn't just go for Michigan.</p>

319

<p>
[quote]
I would suggest that the limited endowment is what keeps Penn, Duke and U of C from moving up much more. U of C is losing top faculty all the time. Dartmouth is a niche player as much LAC as university. Same for Brown.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And yet, despite having much smaller endowments (actually, UoC's and Duke's endowment, in comparison to UoM, are not much smaller), grads from Brown and Darmouth, overall, are more highly prized by businesses/recruiters.</p>

320

<p>More SAT data for Michigan and Northwestern. The more you look, the greater the difference in student quality (as measured by SAT score) is revealed.</p>

<p>Michigan
Top 25%: 1420-
Middle 50%: 1220-1410
Bottom 25%: 900-1220</p>

<p>Northwestern
Top 53% of students: 1400-
Next 40% of students: 1200-1400
Bottom 7% of students: 1000-1200</p>

<p>A further insight into these numbers. Northwestern’s are from Fall, 2005 and are expected to be reported higher for Fall, 2006. Michigan’s numbers are already adjusted to reflect Fall, 2006.</p>