Northwestern vs Umichigan?

<p>Although for a Michigan resident with a lot of need, NU would probably guarantee no loans. So I’d say it’s more of an issue with a Michigan resident who won’t get much aid.</p>

<p>its interesting how much the responses differ on the Umichigan forum with this same question</p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-michigan-ann-arbor/1464192-northwestern-umich-5.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/university-michigan-ann-arbor/1464192-northwestern-umich-5.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>They all insist Umichigan is equally as good, if not better, than Northwestern. </p>

<p>Perspective…</p>

<p>The US New Ranking show UofM at #29 and NU at #12. Likewise, US News also publishes “World University Rankings” (and doesn’t specifiy whether or not they are ranking graduate or undergraduate - though the methodology clearly uses some measures that are more undergraduate focused) and UofM ranks #17 where NU ranks #27.</p>

<p>From my perspective, as the father of a graduating senior and living in Michigan, my daughter apllied to and was accepted EA to Michigan (and loves the school - especially the honors program which does cater to students with “Harvard-like” stats). To me, the slight bump that NU might offer from a midwestern perspective is definately not worth the extra $120K or so that NU would cost. However, Princeton and Yale (where my daughter also has applications in) would be worth the extra coin - from my perspective. As someone who graduated from a lower rated undergraduate school myself (Rutgers), but perhaps a higher rated finance MBA program (Columbia), it will be the qualities of the individual students that will make the ultimate difference in where the students go after their undergraduate education is over. Both Michigan and NU are wonderful schools and each will allow their students to reach as far as they want to reach.</p>

<p>While I fully subscribe to mekozak’s views, I want to point out however that in the World University Rankings, NU is placed at 19 while U of M is placed at 20…not that it is relevant.</p>

<p>[World</a> University Rankings 2012-2013](<a href=“http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2012-13/world-ranking]World”>World University Rankings 2013-14 | Times Higher Education (THE))</p>

<p>NorthwestDad,</p>

<p>I got my “World’s Best Universities” data here:</p>

<p>[World’s</a> Best Universities; Top 400 Universities in the World | US News](<a href=“http://www.usnews.com/education/worlds-best-universities-rankings/top-400-universities-in-the-world]World’s”>http://www.usnews.com/education/worlds-best-universities-rankings/top-400-universities-in-the-world)</p>

<p>It just goes to show you how difficult any real assessment of quality must be at this level as both Michigan and NU place very well in the surveys. When you look at ALL the schools at the undergraduate level that CC considers to be a top school (universities and liberal arts colleges), they still only account for the top 2% of US childern born in any one year. In my mind, there’s lots of opportunity for young adults who can demonstrate success at this level of education.</p>

<p>I don’t have a dog in this hunt, but as a parent of a kid who recently was looking at both Universities, i have some observations.</p>

<p>In general, Mich is a great school, but mainly thanks to its graduate programs. I know it quite well as I hired a couple of Mich PhD’s myself (I run a small hedge fund). However, the undergrad college is quite weak and does not belong in top 20. This is mainly due to the relative weakness of its undergrad body. Comparing ACT scores for both schools illustrates the gap in relative quality: Northwestern averages 33, while Mich only 29. Actually, the 75% of ACT at Mich is 32. In other words, the top 25% of Mich class is below average at Northwestern. The difference in basic ability is simply quite significant. Again, tests scores are not be all end all of undergrad performance, but 4 point difference (so roughly 300 difference on SAT) is simply very large. Majority of Mich undergrads would have trouble getting admission to Northwestern.</p>

<p>As to resources, we can compare a variety of things, but it’s pretty clear to me that they are much lower at Mich. Just look at 4 your graduation rate: Mich 73%, Northwestern 86%. This is the general problem with many state schools and its not specific to Mich. Cal’s 4 year graduation rate is 71%.</p>

<p>At full price, top privates are not only more prestigious, but much better value.</p>

<p>Kryz’s numbers seem right but for the most part it probably matters little because due to it’s much larger size there are still plenty of smart students at U of M. The real issue today is cost so for in-staters going to NU is crazy unless they get huge FA.</p>

<p>Well, no. Mich is three times bigger, but even the top students from Mich are below average at NU. It’s always better for your kid to be surrounded by smart competitive kids, who push each other. That’s the biggest value of top colleges. Mich simply fails to provide an environment like that. That’s why i did not want my kid to go there.</p>

<p>If you cannot afford a top school and you are in state, then Mich offers a great value. However, if you can afford it, it’s better for your kid to be surrounded by more competitive kids.</p>

<p>In my personal experience, I have observed the greatest advantage in going to any top notch schools is the kind of self esteem it imparts and builds and one can never assign a monetary value to this.</p>

<p>Reddog, of course each side is going to say theirs, but most rankings and such agree with us.</p>

<p>Mekozak, I don’t see how NU wouldn’t be worth the extra money but PY would be. NU is probably the top college that is balanced overall. A lot of theater/journalism kids so there are a lot of varied people, Big 10 so you have great sports, obviously top academics, among other things. I would argue that no college that is better academically offers such a great balance of the “college life.”</p>

<p>Another point to going to a top school (Although this applies to Michigan as well for my example) is that you are an undergrad at a school with one of the top grad programs. Usually, students are more likely to get admitted at their own school, or so I’ve been led to believe. So going to a top school allows you a better shot at a great grad school, not that students who get into top schools would have that much trouble with grad admissions, but still.</p>

<p>krzysmis - </p>

<p>I don’t know where you are getting your ACT numbers from, but the only schools that AVERAGE 33 or higher in the ACT are Harvard and Yale. Every site I see for Northwestern shows a 25%/75% range of 31-33:</p>

<p>[ACT</a> Score Comparison for Top Universities in the United States](<a href=“http://collegeapps.about.com/od/theact/a/act-top-universities.htm]ACT”>ACT Score Comparison for Admission to Top Universities)</p>

<p>Numbers for Michigan for the ACT seem to range from 29-33 from the same source:</p>

<p>[Top</a> Public University ACT Scores - Compare ACT Scores for Top Public Universities](<a href=“http://collegeapps.about.com/od/theact/a/ACT_Top_Public.htm]Top”>Top Public University ACT Score Comparison)</p>

<p>These numbers show NU’s average at 32 versus Michigan at 31. Better, yes, but not significantly. Even if you assume that Michigan’s numbers were a point lower this would mean that the top 1/2 of NU is equal to the top 1/4 of Michigan (not the skewed numbers you were showing). </p>

<p>Crimsonstained7,</p>

<p>No I don’t think that NU is enough of a prestige bump to justify spending over $120K extra. Graduation rates are irrelevant to me because I know the determination of my daughter and what she’s capable of. Her 2250 SAT scores are no less than mid range at any school out there (not to mention the rest of her stats). Will she get into those ivys - probably not, but she’ll do fine whereever she goes.</p>

<p>I take the numbers from USNWR. In other words, the numbers self-reported from the schools themselves. They are also in agreement with the respective most recent cds files. The numbers you show are old.
My numbers are more recent. Pretty clearly, Mich is significantly lower stats-wise.</p>

<p>Here are the links:
<a href=“Office of Budget and Planning”>Office of Budget and Planning;
<a href=“http://enrollment.northwestern.edu/common-data/2011-12/c.html[/url]”>http://enrollment.northwestern.edu/common-data/2011-12/c.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>NorthwesternDad, </p>

<p>There are dangers with that, though. Over the years, I hired PhD’s from tippity top schools (MIT, Stanford) and some of them had clearly decided that getting those degrees was achievement enough and they did not have to do anything with their lives anymore. Obviously, that attitude led to predictable consequences.</p>

<p>This is entire thread has been quite hilarious to read. Not all private universities are created equal and not all public universities are created equal. Michigan is not a 3rd tier Podunk state university and Northwestern is not on Harvard’s level. There is really no significant difference. I personally met people who have worked for Goldman Sachs, Deloitte, Intel, Microsoft, or have created start-ups backed by $15,000+ from venture capitalists. But these people aren’t outliers either.</p>

<p>Mekozak, prestige is a horrible reason to choose a school. If someone wants to spend the extra money (Not likely to be 120,000 because Fin. Aid at NU is great) to go to a great school, that’s way more balanced than most of the other top schools, it’s their choice.</p>

<p>Except maybe Harvard or Stanford, I don’t think any school is worth 100K more than Michigan unless that 100K to you is like 1,000 bucks to an average person.</p>

<p>Crimsonstained7,</p>

<p>I agree that “prestige” is a horrible reason to choose a school. But my daughter has very specific reasons choosing the schools she did. She wants to double major in history and economics. She also wants to gear her undergraduate experience toward research - which means heavily connecting to what is available at the graduate level. Thus graduate level resources (and rankings) played a heavy part in her decision to apply to specific schools.</p>

<p>Her school choices (for better or worse):
Princeton - ranked Number 1 in both history and economics
Yale - Ranked 1 in history and 6 in economics
Chicago - Ranked 1 in economics and 5 in history
Michigan (her “safety” school - ranked 7 in history and 12 in economics)</p>

<p>For reference - Northwestern is ranked 8 in economics and 14 in history - which is collectively, for the majors she wishes to study - not as highly ranked as Michigan (although again we are splitting hairs here). For the sake of illustrating a simple ranking for her double major, add the rankings and compare. Princeton being a “2” since the ranking of 1 in each subject leads to the best score. Yale is a 7, Chicago a 6, Michigan a 19, and NU a 22. So NU is ranked worse in her chosen disciplines but for $120K more. For what it’s worth, she didn’t like Harvard or how they deal with undergraduates and we didn’t want her to apply to California schools (like Stanford or Berkeley).</p>

<p>As a senior in high school, she has already had two interviews with Michigan full professors interested in having her work with them on research projects when/if she goes to Michigan. She’s a very determined kid. She’s also graduating near the top of her magnet IB high school (ranked #5 in the nation by US News) - a school which last year had more than 1% of the entire nation’s ACT 36s - but with only 140 kids in the school. </p>

<p>As for financial aid, I didn’t even bother to fill out the CAS and FAFSA when I calculated my “expected yearly contributions” - somewhere north of $140K per year. So NU would in fact be that much more than Michigan - for me.</p>

<p>So will she get into those other schools? - probably not, she’s too well rounded for what they typically like. And she has no “hook” at any of those schools. In fact, no kid from her high school has EVER gotten into Yale (which is mind blowing to me). I almost sense a deep prejudice against midwestern kids from some of these schools. But she wanted to try.</p>

<p>mekozak - Yes, you are splitting hairs, but so much of this thread is ridiculously set up in that way. I do have to comment on you Yale comment though. No one from our high school (suburban NYC) has ever gotten into Princeton, even with a large Princeton donor recommending some kids. The reason, IMHO, is that our town does not raise “Princeton type” kids. My understanding of Princeton is that it is a bit uptight, conservative, and very structured (lunch clubs anyone?). Although given our connections I am pretty certain that my daughter would have been admitted if she wanted to go there. She had less than no interest. Not sure why Yale has never taken any kid from your high school but I don’t think it’s a midwestern predjudice.</p>

<p>Regarding Yale, my daughter, very well rounded; salutatorian, perfect Math SAT and SAT II, awards in Science Research, but an actor (professionally in middle school and high school) who has always known that was what she wanted to major in, she was admitted to Yale. Northwestern? Waitlisted. She did obviously get admitted, and chose NU over Yale.</p>

<p>What schools work best for your child? It shouldn’t be based on ranking differences of ten levels or less, but on fit and, obviously, finances.</p>

<p>krzysmis, you do have a valid point there!</p>

<p>

You are splitting hairs that have already been split with this sort of analysis of graduate program strength. There are so many subfields in Economics and History that one or a couple of these schools will be better than others in certain areas. You can get into an elite Economics PhD program from all 5 of these universities.</p>

<p>The real reason you should choose Yale, Princeton, Chicago, or NU is that their student bodies are far more accomplished than Michigan’s and your daughter’s peer group will be stronger. A lot of the smart kids at UMich are enrolled in Ross and Engineering so the overall statistics in terms of SAT/ACT for the College of Arts & Sciences would be even lower at Michigan.</p>

<p>I agree with Sam though that no university is worth a $100 K more than Michigan if money is an issue. I would include even Harvard and Stanford though.</p>