Northwestern vs. Wellesley

<p>i'm really having a hard time deciding where to go for college - northwestern or wellesley. i wrote down some pro/cons for each school (some of them might be bad generalizations or things i've heard w/ no backing, i apologize for those). if anyone can offer me any feedback at all, i'd reaaaaaaally appreciate it. thanks!</p>

<p>Northwestern
+good resources
+is a university, so not so geared towards humanities (?) wider range of opportunities/options for classes, etc
+can take classes at other colleges at northwestern, not just college of arts and science
+co-ed
+good student body size (7-8K undergrad, 3-4K for arts/science)
+far from home
+sporty school
+Chicago/Evanston
+pretty campus
+freshman seminars (15 ppl max, teacher becomes ur advisor for freshman year)
+better school?
+more of the typical "college experience"?
-quarter system
-weather=windy
-arts/science not as good as journalism/theatre (how much worse?...)
-far from home… travel expenses</p>

<p>Wellesley
+can take classes at MIT
+smaller classes
+better relationship with professors
+sisterhood
+sent me lots of letters after acceptance (this isnt really a factor lol)
+a lot of ppl I know
+more well known in the east?
+great networking/feeder school
+closer to home
+semester system
+college town
-bad reputation among MIT ppl?
-small school
-hilly and empty campus
-liberal arts = humanities?
-no boys
-closer to home</p>

<p>i have no clue what i want from a college which makes it infinitely harder to decide. im interested in math/science (maybe not enough to make a career out of it) so i'm considering something like working with kids/non profit (although that doesnt exactly make you a lot of money, and we all need money ;P)</p>

<p>visited both, did an overnight at wellesley. i wasnt really feeling wellesley until i met my hostess, then after i met her and interacted more with the kids i liked it a lot more. at first it was like whoa so many girls but then i got more used to it and it doesnt bother me THAT much. northwestern overnights booked too fast, so all i could do was a tour, and the campus is def. prettier than wellesleys, but i dont know how i'll like the people or the whole atmosphere (but it IS coed). i feel like wellesley is a safer choice b/c i know more about it, but northwestern has a better social life so it might be more of the "college experience." ack i dont know, ultimately i feel like it comes down do safety vs. risk, social life/college experience vs. the rest of my life (supposedly if u graduate from wellesley u are set for life w/ the networking and everything...dunno about the northwestern networking/feeder school situation). how well known is either school in the working world?</p>

<p>sorry for blabbering but i keep going back and forth and it really is driving me nuts. feedback please? gracias.</p>

<p>hey hwc... what kind of bad reputation does wellesley have with MIT? im from michigan lol and lots of people are actually going to northwestern so wellesley is far from my house. is it really well known in the east coast? all the people in michigan who know about it are like.. educated people. most hobos... okay i shouldnt use that word, but like, 1/2 the people from my school, and peopel from the restaurant i work at, doesnt know what wellesley is, but all the whitecollar middle or upper class people tell me it is an excellent beyond excellent school... for a girl, the harvard of liberal arts</p>

<p>hm i dont know if there is any truth to this, but a couple of people have told me that mit ppl look down on wellesley girls, and columbia students look down on barnard students. i really dont know if its true at all.</p>

<p>kandy can u tell me anything about northwestern? it would be nice to hear what people in michigan think, most of the people i know know little or nothing about it.</p>

<p>Hah? MIT looking down Wellesley? I think that's like in the OLD days when MIT was very much a boys school and Wellesley was a girls school (still is).</p>

<p>personally, i think that wellesley being an all women college is a plus, i think that it will be awesome to study with a bunch of over-achieving women, besides i dont have many guy friends anyway so i don't think i will miss that. also i like the fact that it is small because it is important for me to have close contact w/ professors and stuff. plus boston is cooler than chicago. </p>

<p>well that was my humble input :)</p>

<p>Northwestern's arts and sciences, while overshadowed by the schools of journalism and communication and not as good as the ivies, are still strong (many are still in the top 30..though not many are in the top-10).</p>

<p>Chemistry is the strongest among sciences (ranked 10-12th) with inorganic chem (though speciality is only significant for grad students) in the top-5 in the nation. Econ is the strongest among social sciences (ranked 8th in the nation though there may be some smaller program that's ranked higher and I don't know of). I think math is ranked 16th by US News.</p>

<p>For people who plan to work with kids and non-profit, they may want to check out the school of education and social policy (ranked 6th in the nation). Transferring to it from Arts Sci or getting dual-degree from both schools is very easy.</p>

<p>in michigan area, when we apply to colleges, people with pretty good stats - ivybound? hehe - usually apply to chicago, northwestern, and umich for match. a lot of people end up going to these schools for various reasons: not getting accepted at ivies, money issue even if accepted... but from what i know.. northwestern is a very good school especially like what sam lee said about science. most people from my school going there are doctorwannabes. so if u want to get a b.s., then northwestern has a lot to offer. but in terms of humanity and arts, im sure wellesley is a lot better. so if u want a b.a. or wanna be anything such as lawyer... then wellesley is definitely better. if ur becoming a doctor/science person, northwestern also has lots of research facilities. its also very big. social wise... i think northwestern has more parties, but i think mit/harvard/boston area schools mite throw better parties even if wellesley is a "stonecoldsober" school.</p>

<p>do mit people really look down at wellesley girls? i thought the situation was more along the lines... mit guys dont like to date mit girls because they're antisocial/lack social skills or something, so they end up dating wellesley girls, so mit girls end up hating wellesley girls and say stuff like "if he wants to date a moron, then i cant stop him." but i thought it was out of bitterness... of course.. im guessing about all of this as ive never been there. but personally, as i thought about it, id still pick wellesely even if i applied and was accepted to mit. mit is notorious for grade deflation, so gradschool entrance is at disadvantage. i also like how wellesley is sober so i dont have to worry about parties all the time. if i have time for fun, ill go to boston, but when i study i can really concentrate.</p>

<p>i think wellesley girls should be intelligent theres no reason to look down on them. its not even true when people say, "she would'v been in mit if she was accepted." a lot of people would turn down harvard for wellesley</p>

<p>thanks for the help everyone! even though both schools are great schools, in the end the smaller class sizes at wellesley and the fact that they offer more individual attention won me over. so looks like it's going to be wellesley!</p>

<p>congrats! look forward to seeing u nex year</p>

<p>Wellesley is so much harder to get into that Northwestern. And it's top 4 liberal arts school in the country, so i say good choice!</p>

<p>blueangel,
Since when a more selective school means a better school?? By the way, you may want to check some facts before opening your big mouth. Northwestern is likely more difficult to get in according to the following stats I just found on yahoo education:</p>

<p>Wellesley:
Admission 3,944 applied, 1,495 admitted, 617 enrolled
Test scores SAT verbal scores over 500 99%, SAT math scores over 500 99%, ACT scores over 18 100%, SAT verbal scores over 600 90%, SAT math scores over 600 90%, ACT scores over 24 94%, SAT verbal scores over 700 48%, SAT math scores over 700 44%, ACT scores over 30 44% </p>

<p>Northwestern:
Admission 15,637 applied, 4,684 admitted, 1,915 enrolled
Test scores SAT verbal scores over 500 99%, SAT math scores over 500 100%, ACT scores over 18 100%, SAT verbal scores over 600 91%, SAT math scores over 600 94%, ACT scores over 24 97%, SAT verbal scores over 700 51%, SAT math scores over 700 63%, ACT scores over 30 68%</p>

<p>um... see... the thing with wellesley is that is a female school, so its already self-selective. its admission %, according to collegeboard, is 37%, but its still ranked #4 for LAC... why? it's because its quality of education. If welleseley wasnt an allgirl school, i think it would beat amherst or swarthmore or at least be in par on the ranking system. </p>

<p>Wellesley has a higher gradschool feeder score than northwestern, so u might want to keep that in mind. When it comes to undergrad, i think LACs are nice cuz it makes u grow as a person independent from your family, but guides u, gives u individual attention. if i were to go to a big public like Umich, i would really get lost.</p>

<p>Which schools would a person pick if cross-admitted</p>

<p>1 Harvard
2 Yale
3 Stanford
4 Cal Tech
5 MIT
6 Princeton
7 Brown
8 Columbia
9 Amherst
10 Dartmouth
11 Wellesley
12 U Penn
13 U Notre Dame
14 Swarthmore
15 Cornell
16 Georgetown
17 Rice
18 Williams
19 Duke
20 U Virginia
21 Northwestern
22 Pomona
23 Berkeley
24 Georgia Tech
25 Middlebury</p>

<p>I was just responding to blueangel's ridiculous comment. The numbers clearly contradict it. I'd give credit to the self-selective nature of Wellesley admission and with that, you can only say Wellesley is about equal with Northwestern at best. Calling one "much harder to get into than" another sounds ill-intended bashing to me.</p>

<p>I am not denying the benefit of LACs. In fact, I was admitted to LACs and my junior/senior years in hs were spent in where Williams College is located; I went to their professors' office hours when I was't even in their classes! In the end, I decided to study at a "university" because LACs have almost no name recognition in my home country.</p>

<p>Hey, xokandykyssox, I'm just curious, where did you get that list of cross-admitted schools?</p>

<p>i think it was a survey somewhere like those campusdirt kind of places where they just asked a bunch of students</p>

<p>Haha, *<strong><em>ed off because somebody said that a school was "much harder" to get into than another and then going to a "university" because it has better name recognition.. that's *</em></strong>*ing hilarious. </p>

<p>I don't know dude, whatever rocks your boat.</p>

<p>And seriously, getting upset because somebody says that and believing that it's "ill-intended bashing," and then responding with "... before opening your big mouth," hmm.. yeah, I really DON'T see how that works.</p>

<p>Oh, and I'd love to see the NUMBERS regarding name recognition.</p>

<p>Chill out. These are all just people's opinions.</p>

<p>pinke123: "Hey, xokandykyssox, I'm just curious, where did you get that list of cross-admitted schools?"</p>

<p>xokandykyssesox is citing a ranking (mostly Harvard and U Penn researchers) based on student preference in where they choose to finally enroll among acceptances, in effect a series of head to head competitions (pages 26-28 <a href="http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/papers/1287.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/papers/1287.pdf&lt;/a> )</p>

<p>As one of the authors (Metrick) states on a Wharton site discussion of this research paper, "When a student decides to enroll at one college among those that have admitted him, he effectively decides which college won in head-to-head competition. This model efficiently combines the information contained in thousands of these wins and losses, and produces a ranking that would be very difficult for a college to manipulate."</p>

<p>Brigham Young, Wellesley, Georgetown, Notre Dame:</p>

<p>Several factors go into skewing the rank order from that of US News rankings. Brigham Young is given as an example of regional/religious preference in the report (p. 41 of the PDF). Utah has a high percentage of Mormons and thus students from Utah give a high preference to Brigham Young.</p>

<p>An AP article ( <a href="http://boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/10/20/new_ranking_system_based_on_choice/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/10/20/new_ranking_system_based_on_choice/&lt;/a> ) summarizes why certain other schools may do well including Wellesley:</p>

<p>"Wellesley's appeal as a women's college evidently helps it beat elite universities. Georgetown and Notre Dame score higher than they do in US News, probably because of their popularity with Roman Catholic students." </p>

<p>I think these examples, including Wellesley, are true examples of 'self selective' schools. Students who apply to these schools are more likely to go to them in comparison to other seemingly better schools. </p>

<p>Princeton, Duke, Wash U</p>

<p>I think one interesting discussion is the manipulation by Princeton and Duke. Princeton, in effect, practices a form of 'Tufts syndrome', rejecting some more qualified applicants because of competitive pressures from more selective colleges, eg Harvard and MIT.</p>

<p>From the report for Princeton:
"consider Princeton admissions in Figure 1 (p. 6 of the PDF). At Princeton, the admissions probability rises to 20 percent at the 93 percentile (of SAT scores), then falls to 10 percent at the 98 percentile (precisely the region where competition is toughest), and then rises again for students with SAT scores in the top 2 percentiles."
"If a college is not practicing strategic admissions, then the probability that a student is admitted ought to rise monotonically in his or her merit (MIT is shown as an example). In contrast, a college that is strategic (Princeton is given as an example) will have non-monotonic admissions probabilities. A student's probability of admission will first rise in his or her merit and then fall as his or her merit moves into the range in which the strategic college faces stiff competition. In other words, the college will avoid admitting students in the range in which it is likely to lose in a matriculation tournament. Finally, if the student's merit is high enough, a strategic college will probably admit the student even if the competition will be stiff. This is because the prospective gains from enrolling a "star" will more than make up for the prospective losses from a higher admissions rate and lower matriculation rate." </p>

<p>As for Duke (p. 11 of the PDF):
"In addition, colleges can manipulate their admissions rate by encouraging applications from students who have little chance of actually gaining admission. A college can advertise less stringent criteria than it actually applies. By doing so, it encourages marginal students to apply, increases its number of applications, decreases its admissions rate, and raises its apparent desirability, even though its real desirability has not changed. For instance, this is how Toor (2000) described her job as an admissions officer at Duke University: "The job of admissions officers is to recruit, to boost application numbers. The more applications, the lower the admit rate, the higher the institutional ranking. Increasing application numbers is usually the No. 1 mandate of the recruiting season. Partly, that means trying to get the very best students to apply. But it also means trying to persuade those regular, old Bright Well-Rounded Kids (B.W.R.K.'s, in admissionese) to apply -- so that the college can reject them and bolster its selectivity rating."</p>

<p>A better example of what Duke does may be going on at Washington University in St. Louis. It's given as an example of the discrepancy with US News rankings (from the Harvard Crimson, ( <a href="http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=503948%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=503948&lt;/a&gt;) :
"Washington University in St. Louis, for example, ranks 11th in U.S. News, but 62nd in the NBER study. Avery pointed to such discrepancies as a testament to the strength of the system he and his co-authors proposed. It shows that U.S. News is valuing something that is not being valued by students in the same way,” said Avery." </p>

<p>Wash U's very highly statistically qualified students but 62 preference ranking would seem to imply that applicants to Wash U when given the chance to choose another school would choose the other school. Therefore, the students going to Wash U are composed of many students rejected by other schools. So for Wash U's relatively low acceptance to be true, they must be accepting most of the very qualified students balanced by rejecting many underqualified students. This probably explains Wash U's disproportionate amount of mailers to applicants.</p>