<p>riley, i go to uva, and the uva police are not out to bust anyone. every time ive seen someone get "arrested" for drunk in public it usually just means the cops took the person home. even i got driven home by the cops once - and thankfully, i was too plastered to get there on my own. i think u need to chill out a bit about the booze. unless you're being a menace or harming someone, ur not likely to get in trouble.</p>
<p>There have been numerous arrests at WM, jags86. Perhaps it is just WM but the point of these comments is that most students think of college drinking as a kind of rite of passage, a given, something that might be concerning but not serious. But, for some students, the consequences could be much more serious for their futures than parents or students realize. It's nice to hear that UVA is taking better care of it's students than WM.</p>
<p>I meant to say above that most PARENTS and students think of college drinking.....</p>
<p>riley, as one of my best friends from home goes to w&m i can tell you exactly why there have been numerous arrests. </p>
<p>besides the fact that he's already told me its a miserable school because cops suck, the reason cops suck is because you have A) w&m police B) williamsburg police C) colonial williamsburg police. thats alot of police for a small town and a small school - they have nothing better to do. In c-ville, the c-ville police don't/rarely bother us, as there are alot of sketchy townies in c-ville. honestly, who wants to go to a school where, in his own words, you have to sneak into the woods to smoke up. Thats ridiculous.</p>
<p>regardless, i don't understand what your beef is. you don't like frats, you don't like drinking - did you honestly just go to college to learn? :-P. MAybe you're parents weren't cool about it with you, but frankly, i love the fact that my parents were frickin nuts in college, and they expect no less of it from me - as long as i keep my grades up (which i do).</p>
<p>I don't like frats, definitely, but I know I am in the minority, particularly with anyone south of Boston (smile). I don't like the pack mentality, focus on partying, and exclusivity of it all but please, I don't want to debate frats with someone who maybe has grown up with frats as the norm. I don't have a problem with drinking and, in fact, would advocate for lowering the drinking age to end this ridiculous hypocrisy that exists between what goes on in droves on campus and the ridiculous laws that seek to prevent underage drinking without any social changes or effective action towards that objective. The drinking age was changed from 21 to l8 while I was in college, then back again after college. I drank in high school and college, believe me, I understand the college lifestyle. The issue in criminalizing underage possession laws has it's roots in drunk driving and it is too bad that we can't separate out that issue from responsible drinking. In VA, MADD has been very effective in strengthening the underage possession laws. Effective July 2005, police were given the right to arrest someone for underage possession of alcohol without having to prove that they ingested it - you can arrest someone for having bleary eyes or imbalance. </p>
<p>I am against binge drinking, drinking as a competition, but not against social drinking - which reminds me.... are frats known for their "social" drinking? What about beer pong and beirut and keg stands.......definitely not about social drinking.......but, I digress. I think you have misunderstood my comments. My comment is....beware in VA......if you choose to drink irresponsibly. Check out the MADD webpage for VA you will see that MADD is seeking volunteers to sit in the courtrooms to make sure that charges against drinking are not dismissed - they report on the judges and try to prevent their re-election if they are "soft" on these cases. I find VA very, very scary since the general public obviously supports these laws and I just happen to be one of those "liberals" who has a hard time with ultra-conservative mentality. Too many intertwining issues here.</p>
<p>Also, btw, I did go to school to learn because it was my ticket out of poverty - but that is another issue and one that so many kids today don't have to think about.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I don't like the pack mentality, focus on partying, and exclusivity of it all
[/quote]
I really think that you just have a grudge against Greek Life. The pack mentalitly is called brotherhood. I have 70 brothers who will be my best friends for the rest of my life and would do anything for me. And we are not all alike - I have jewish brothers, brothers from the north and all over the country. And since you are commenting from the outside you have no idea what you are talking about. If you go to any fraternity house in our Greek Village on a sunday through wednesday night (most people don't have friday classes), then 90% of the students will be studying or at the library and this is true for everyone I know in Greek Life unless the fraternity has a mixer with a sorority. You can sit there and call us all dumb alcoholics who don't care about school, but when you see all of the good things that fraternities do then you would probably change your mind. We do community service often, have required study hours, hold philanthropic events and our all male and female greek GPA is higher than the campus wide all male and female GPA. Yes the media does propogate negative stereotypes about fraternities but when does the media ever show the good things? Look beyond the stereotypes because Greek Life is one of the best things in my life and I don't think you should try and influence your son with your views when you have never experienced Greek Life. And regarding MADD, I don't know if you know this but there is no federal law mandating a 21 year old drinking age, but instead the federal government manipulated federalism by telling states that they would not get interstate money unless they lowered the drinking age. MADD has gone way too far in their efforts. If I get arrested for minor in possession, I should not have a criminal record or lose my state scholarships. When the state tries to do that then they are crossing the line and it is because of groups like MADD that they are so hardlined about it. Thankfully people in government have created programs like Alcohol Diversionary Program and Pre Trial Intervention that can expunge these charges and if you look into it I'm sure VA has a similar program. Don't judge too quickly and classify us as booze hounds. I am a freshman at USC Honors (a prestigious honors college) with a full scholarship from the university and I got into Duke but couldn't afford it so I know that you go to college to learn but you also go to meet people and Greek Life allows you to do this and meet such great guys. You need to let your son live his own life.</p>
<p>BCgoUSC - Oh, I missed your post - sorry. My son is living his own life - he is pledging a fraternity now. That doesn't mean I am happy about it. I sincerely hope you have 70 "friends" for the rest of your life, brothers who will come to your aid when you need them. I wonder, will you trust them? Did they become your brothers out of true friendship with you or out of acceptance to, and payment for membership in, a selective club? Here are a few things I think about when I think about frats - what IS the purpose of having frats on campus? Why are students insistent upon blanketing themselves with those who are just like them, with an "identity" that may or may not really be their true identity. Why do students have to pay dues to frats if they are really just like clubs ($800/year, $1000/year?). I was told that money goes to the national organization - wow. What happens to students who cannot afford to pay the $800 fees???? Are there scholarships for those who are interested in joining, have friends in the frat and meet all the other entrance requirements except....money? If not, are those who cannot afford to go allowed to go to the parties? How is this not about ability to pay, a means of ensuring thatyou are living and partying with the wealthier students? For 40k/year, students should at least spend some time with students less fortunate or of a different thought process than the ones in their frats. Why the pledging - if someone is your friend, your brother, why make them jump through hoops to be part of the brotherhood???? Hazing? Brother? They don't ring the same bell with me.</p>
<p>Beware of your diversion programs. There are definitely diversion programs in VA and many states. The lawyer will tell you that your charges will be "dismissed" if you take the diversion program. If you take it, you will have on your record, permanently, court ordered probation, court ordered alcohol counseling, court ordered community services and possibly court ordered random drug testing - depends on what state you are in. The lawyer will tell you that you will never have to answer "yes" to the question - have you ever been convicted of a misdemeanor. Well, guess what, nobody asks that simple question anymore. Check our transfer applications (Tufts comes to mind as I looked at it recently) and law school applications.........they don't ask if you have been convicted - they ask if you have ever been arrested, if you have ever had court ordered probation, court ordered alcohol classes, etc, etc. Yes, you have to answer yes - internet access makes checking your answers quite easy. Many court cases are online. Think the charges are dismissed? Well, they might be "dismissed" but in most states, it takes a act of God to get them expunged. Background checks are done now for housing, jobs, college applications, everything. You are not free of the results of any arrest by taking on a diversion program. Check it out.</p>
<p>Why are we so "insistent upon blanketing [ourselves] with those who are just like [us]?" Well, honestly, we aren't. Some frats are filled with the same kind of people, but at Cornell at least most frats are just groups of guys who get along. There is a lot of diversity in most frats I've seen, both in terms of what people do/how people act. The only real division between fraternities seems to be general personality types - some frats are more laid back, some are more high-strung, etc, and also the strength of partying (some frats encourage drunken antics and hard partying, and some don't). </p>
<p>Also, most frats have scholarships for both academics (i.e. a book scholarship) and for dues (i.e. if someone can't afford to pay dues). </p>
<p>Most clubs have dues - at least the clubs that do things. Fraternity dues pay for the parties that frats throw.</p>
<p>Pledging builds unity and ensures that people take joining a fratnerity seriously. I'm going to be pledging next semester (long story) and I cannot wait for it to start. Hazing isn't big up here (I actually wish it was bigger) but as long as its "normal" (i.e. not the really vile kind (things involving *<strong><em>, *</em></strong>, etc.) or the sexual kind) then I think it can be a good thing. Going through trials with others makes you bond more closely with them and makes a better and more coherent team. I liken it to really hard practices for a sport - going through hell with your teammates makes you a more tight-knit team and improves team unity and morale. Pledging is what ensures that your frat brothers care about the fraternity as much as you do.</p>
<p>Let me make clear that my statements about hazing in no way reflect the general consensus of fraternity members I know; most people are very against hazing.</p>
<p>BCgoUSC, do you go to BC or USC?</p>
<p>so basically you have to PAY to be in a faternity? pay to have "best friends" im going to sdsu and the faternities there are really big, i read in TIME magazine that faternities are not such drunkards annymore, but i dont think ill get in on the ac count that most faternities dont want an ARAB brother who plays guitar and isnt too rich</p>
<p>You don't PAY to have friends, and if you go in with an attitude like that you won't get a single bid. You PAY so your fraternity has money to buy alcohol for parties, maintain the house, etc. - you are providing the funding for your fraternity's activities.</p>
<p>so you pay housing plus 1000? and those people are branded your brothers because they buy you booze? thats not how you make friends for a lifetime, you make them through experiences you have to go through in your life with those people, and i dont need some one telling me what to do...i just left my parents house...as you can tell i dont plan on joining, i just hate the frats because the force you conform into there stupid mold..thats just how it seems, im sure not all frats are like that, but i shouldnt have to dress acertain way to please someone and be friends wih them</p>
<p>You managed to completely miss the point of my post. I didn't say you make friends with them because they buy you alcohol - I said you pay into a communal fund so your fraternity can have parties. You choose to rush a frat because you LIKE the brothers and enjoy hanging out with them; paying dues is simply a way of ensuring that your fraternity can actually have parties so you can party with your friends too. It is no different from having a house party with some friends and combining forces to buy booze - the booze is a byproduct of friendship, not a cause.</p>
<p>There are some frats that "tell you what to do" and that force you to conform; there are also plenty of frats that like having individuals instead of clones and really don't care as long as you're a cool person. It varies - and judging every fraternity based on just a few is foolish.</p>
<p>Finally, megadethfan, whether you like it or not how you dress has an effect on who you can be friends with. Frats or not, there are plenty of people who aren't going to hang out with people who dress certain ways, talk certain ways, or act certain ways. There are plenty of people who don't care.</p>
<p>First off, I want to confirm something Riley has been talking about. I am currently attending college in Virginia and the laws here are insane, it is dangerous to walk around with alcohol on your person or in your body. Personally, I don't think that's a good law as it encourages drunk driving. Even those over 21 are not safe, I nkow several students at the law school who have gotten in trouble with the police for simply walking home after drinking at the bar, they have even taken to avoiding a certain bar in town because police are known to hang around it.</p>
<p>I do disagree with Riley's assessment of fraternities. First off, fraternities may have saved some of my friends from a criminal record in the fall. Although Virginia alcohol laws are explained during orientation, many people figure if they're ignoring one through underage drinking, they might as well ignore all and that it isnt a big deal or they simply skip out on orientation programs. At frat parties I was at when I just arrived on campus, there were always brothers there to make sure no one went outside holding a can of beer and would explain the law and how overzealous police here could be to anyone who tried. They also made sure to take care of people and were accepting of people's choices - my best friends during fall term were nondrinkers and were never pressured to drink at parties. Granted, all of this was because we have a winter rush at my school and a small student population relative to the number of fraternities, which means fraternities spend the fall bending over backwards to get freshman guys to rush. This is one of many reasons I like the idea of a winter rush.</p>
<p>Contrary to popular belief, fraternities are NOT all about drinking. My roommate is currently pledging a fraternity. He does not drink. Neither do three of his seven pledge brothers. HALF of his entire pledge class does not drink at all. The hall next to mine is a substance-free hall, for the most part it is made up of non-drinkers yet combined they are pledging five different fraternities (only one of them is pledging a dry frat). Clearly they've found that they could fit in without drinking.</p>
<p>I also disagree with the ideas of spending college with a group of guys exactly like you and of "buying friends." Again, this applies mostly to schools with winter rush but you spend the fall term getting toi know the guys at all the fraternities and becoming friends with them. I met my future fraternity brothers playing against them in intramurals. I rushed four houses in the winter and only considered (and only got bids to) the two where I walked in and knew everyone and all the brothers knew me. We became friends in the fall through common interests (IM sports) and because I liked hanging out through them, I didn't get their friendship by paying dues, doing embarassing activities or dressing a certain way. I don't know about you guys but it would take more than you giving me some money, dressing like me and dressing up like a clown and running around campus for me to be friends with you.</p>
<p>Regarding the money issue, Riley asked if those who cannot afford it could pledge as well as if they could attend parties. First off, all fraternity parties here are free and open to all students. They are paid for by the fraternities (that is why you pay dues). Personally, I would not have attended this school if that were not the case. I grew up in New York City and am used to being able to see a concert or go to a nightclub any weekend. No band or DJ would ever come to Lexington, VA if the fraternities did not bring them in and this school social life would be sorely lacking. And what if you can't afford dues? I'll tell you my story. I am a Russian immigrant who grew up in a poorer area of NYC and am at my college only because of a full scholarship. I did not plan on pledging a fraternity for financial reasons. When I rushed, I brought up the money issue and my friends at the fraternity all assured me that it was not a problem. Your fellow fraternity brothers are brothers for a reason, they take care of you. Many fraternities offer forms of aid or scholarships, check their websites, and some might have you wash dishes instead of paying dues or something like that. At my school, the Interfraternity Council offers scholarships as well.</p>
<p>Finally, I want to address the issue of "blanketing [yourself] with those who are just like [you]." Once again, I am from New York City, it is hard to get more diverse than that. I had never attended a school where white students made up the majority until reaching college. This was one of my reasons for pledging the fraternity I chose - with a higher percentage of black, hispanic, jewish and international students than any other fraternity on campus and in at least several if not all of these categories, than the campus as a whole. I have brothers from places as far apart as Georgia, Hawaii, Ecuador and Argentina. They all have something in common though, they all wonderful guys who I love spending time with. There are some frats that have no diversity at all here and there are one or two frats on this campus where, with a few exceptions, someone who is not white, southern, protestant and well-off need not apply but this is far from the truth with most fraternities on campus.</p>
<p>I hope the information I have provided will prove useful to those who have a stereotypical image of fraternities. An image that I believed in before I arrived on campus as there are almost no frats in New York City and frats at NE state schools (Rutgers come to mind) where a small percentage of students go Greek do fit the stereotypes as far as I have heard. </p>
<p>PS: My school publishes average fraternity GPA and ranks them and also compares it to the GPA of non-Greek students every year and every year, the average GPA of Greek men is higher than that of non-Greeks.</p>
<p>I am the original poster. I just wanted to let you know that my son ended up in a frat, and he couldn't be happier. Drinking? Yes, it's there. He tells us all about it. But, it's life, and he is going to house parties, etc., not driving or bar hopping.</p>
<p>His school is very frat oriented, and I was very worried about what would happen if he didn't get into one. At least the worry is over.</p>
<p>One last thing....my son was accepted into a few very "prestigious schools" (although not Ivy), but he turned them down to go to the one he is at. He thanks me all the time for letting him go there. He has an intense course load, and has a 3.8 gpa for the first semester. the frats are making the pledges do 3 hours of study together EVERY night. although my son is the type who will always study at the drop of a hat, he is thankful for the comaraderie. </p>
<p>So, here is one parent who definetely votes for the frat scene.</p>
<p>Out of curiousity momwithquestions, what school/frat is your son at?</p>
<p>Dima343</p>
<p>I appreciate your comments. I believe that each fraternity has its own culture and I also believe that a good frat could be a good experience for some individuals - choosing carefully is important but can everyone choose carefully and without emotional influence? Unfortunately, there are many frats that are not positive experiences or influences and in some schools, the social life does create peer pressure or at least peer presence to be part of Greek life. Many of the Frat GPAs at my son's school are lower than the average male GPA. The GPA required to maintain a fraternity on campus is not exactly stellar or the desired GPA for students hoping to go to grad school! How many students dreams are lost in the desire to pledge and join a frat?</p>
<p>Here is an interesting study regarding the GPA cycle for students participating in Greek life at a university in the Northeast compared with GPAs at a similar school in the Northeast without Greek life. In general, for males, joining a fraternity has a significant, negative impact on GPAs. This does not hold true in this study for sororities, excluding the second semester freshman year:
<a href="http://webserver.lemoyne.edu/%7Egrovewa/academiclifecyclewp2003-001.pdf%5B/url%5D">http://webserver.lemoyne.edu/~grovewa/academiclifecyclewp2003-001.pdf</a>
If you don't have patience to read the whole article, I think the focus on frats falls on pages 9 to 12 and conclusions. </p>
<p>I hear what you are saying about the social life - this is what my son tells me as well. But, to me, that responsibility falls to the colleges and universities and not to fraternities and sororities, which, by nature, are not inclusive or broad in the type of social stimulation they provide. By allowing the frats and sororities to dominate social life, the colleges and universities have abdicated their responsibilities to students, parents and society in general...oh, dear, solidly on my high horse now....sorry. Would you have been interested in joining a frat if you had found a stimulating social network and environment on campus? I wonder. My son's school began rushing students days after we dropped him off - first semester rush, freshman year. That was a shock and he was quite vulnerable - wishing to replicate his group of friends from home, wishing to defuse homesickness, etc. Yet, during the college tours, we were repeatedly told that frats were not a big influence on campus. Duh! Colleges bear some responsibility to minimize the influence of Greeks on the social life of a campus - your comments say it all, frankly. </p>
<p>You are correct that there are few colleges/universities with active and/or positively viewed fraternity life in the NE and NYC area. I think you should consider why that is - there are educational, political and social reasons why frats do not take hold and grow in these areas, and are not viewed positively. The universal response I have received to the news that my son is joining a frat in Virginia has been a horrified face followed by the response - do you think he can transfer back here? LOL. It is worth noting that many of these people, including myself, hire college graduates and professionals regularly. I am wary of anyone who puts their frat or sorority membership on their resume and that is something to think about if you plan to return to NE or NY for future positions. I do understand the desire to join a frat, especially in areas where there is no other activity going on but, frankly, in most schools, the majority of students still do not join fraternities or sororoties and manage to put their time and efforts into discovering the other academic, community and social opportunities that present themselves.</p>
<p>momwithquestions - I am happy for you and your son as this is your desire for him. My son also tells me that the pledges must study together each night. Unfortunately, a bit too late, he has discovered that he studies much better alone - and at his own desk. I don't know how he is handling this but it is sad to me that students feel they have to make a choice between having a social life and making the best choices for themselves. I would like to think that my son would only act in his best interest but he finds himself in a social situation where being part of the frat means a lot to his future social life. I imagine that I would be thinking about having/keeping friends and being able to attend parties, as well, if I were stuck in a small town, 700 miles from home, at a school with no other social life - hard not to understand the pull.</p>
<p>lucifer11287 - you wish there was more hazing? because you want to prove to yourself, and everyone else, that you held up to the test - that you are special enough to wear the letters? This is all about self-esteem, lucifer, and perhaps a touch of elitism - are you sure you want to belong to a club that would have you? (I believe that is compliments of Groucho Marx!). No offense, but you should really think about that comment and what it says about why you are interested in fraternity life.</p>