Not sure what to do...

Colleges and Universities A-Z Naval Academy - Annapolis
1

<p>Hi all,</p>

<p>I got an offer of appointment to the Naval Academy yesterday! Getting in was my goal ever since I was a young child, but now I'm unsure as to whether or not that's where I want to go. </p>

<p>I was just curious whether the concerns (outlined below) are legitimate/expressed by anyone else, and if anyone has any suggestions:</p>

<p>So...</p>

<p>I'm concerned that I won't have the ability to really open my mind to different things. I am a conservative white male, pro-military, and I feel like the Academy would be filled with a bunch of people like me. </p>

<p>I feel like going to the Academy would leave me with a closed mind about questioning the Naval Service. I've always been one who asked questions and wanted to know "why?" something was like that, and I feel like the Academy teaches midshipmen to just do, not question. While I understand the reasoning for this, and I know that it is 100% right in a good many situations, I feel that there are many cases where this blind obedience is NOT the best thing to have. </p>

<p>I think that going to the Academy could potentially stunt my intellectual growth. This is not meant to sound pedantic, but I stay up late every night reading and doing research. In my free time I read and try to learn new things, a lot of it related to the military, current events, foreign affairs, and technology. I just feel like I'd be incredibly frustrated having a lights out time and being required to stand formation, do drill, when I could be learning instead. </p>

<p>I'm concerned about course load. I want to major in aerospace engineering, additionally, however, I'd like to take a class in economics, in astro-physics, and as much Chinese, history, and political as possible. Ideal scenario would be a major in aerospace, and a minor in History, Poly Sci, Chinese (or a combination of 2 of them). I have friends who go to the Academy, and I'm well enough read where we can have a discussion about what they've learned in their Naval History class and I know more. Again, this is not an attempt to sound arrogant-I've devoted a lot of time to studying the subject. So, I feel like some of the required classes at the Academy would be...not a waste, but I feel like I could better utilize some of that time.</p>

<p>Finally, and this becomes more of a personal, selfish, stupid thing, but...June 27th is pretty early in the summer...</p>

<p>Any opinions are welcome, I'm just trying to make sense of everything. Regardless, I want to serve my country as a Naval Officer (ideal path would be naval aviator to foreign area officer specializing in Chinese affairs). I'm looking at NROTC, but also...I'm considering just going to my state school if I got merit scholarships to cover everything. (have more room to take classes, then do NROTC college option or just do OCS afterwards..but probably just do NROTC so I don't have the uncertainty involved with OCS)</p>

<p>For those that are interested, I received a LOA as well. </p>

<p>My stats are: </p>

<p>SAT: 1400+
ACT: 33 composite
Top 10 of 400+ at a public high school in a HIGHLY competitive district for USNA
Varsity Captain, president of club, Eagle Scout, NJROTC officer, NASS attendee, etc.
No hooks, I'm a white male from upper middle class non-military family [ yes, there's hope ]
Oh, I only had a NJROTC nomination from a distinguished unit with honors. I did go to interviews for Senate and House, but I have not heard results yet. But, I got in..</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

<p>David</p>

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<p>First off, congratulations! There are a lot of others who would love to have that appointment, but won<code>t get it. I</code>m not trying to give you a guilt trip, but do realize this is a great thing you`ve received.

  1. There`s diversity at USNA. Sure, there are a lot of white males, but there is definitely diversity; men and women, ethnicity, etc.</p></li> <li><p>I really don<code>t think that it is like you</code>re thinking it is. No one is going to say, "Do this, and that<code>s right". Of course you</code>ll be told to do things, and do it now, and be taught it<code>s right, but that</code>s more like the little things, and not in the manner you<code>re thinking. I really don</code>t think it`s such a closed environment.

  2. You definitely wont have as much free time, but you will have some. And Ive known many Mids who say they`re always up past lights out. </p></li> <li><p>The course-load is definitely something different from a civilian university. And the only types of minors offered are in languages, not Poly Sci. or history, I<code>m almost 100% positive. But as an aerospace major, you won</code>t JUST be taking math and science classes. Everyone takes military classes, leadership, etc. Look at the bottom of this page:[Majors</a> Program - AcDean & Provost - USNA](<a href="http://www.usna.edu/acdean/majors/majors.html%5DMajors">http://www.usna.edu/acdean/majors/majors.html). You<code>ll see how Plebe Year classes are pretty standard, and a broad range. And if you do REALLY well, you can do graduate stuff and even honors projects, but I</code>m not sure if that would work out with an aero major or what.</p></li> <li><p>I`m not even going to go there. OK, June might be early, but sacrifices have to be made. And not a big sacrifice either.</p></li> </ol>

    <p>I guess what I<code>m trying to figure out is…why on earth, if you</code>ve wanted this since you were little…are you 2nd guessing yourself? There<code>s a lot of folks who would love to be in your shoes, and be sure you</code>re doing what you really want. I<code>m sure others will have more to say on this subject, but that</code>s my .02.</p>

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<ol>
<li><p>I didn’t really state that as well as I should have. I could care less about diversity of race, color, or creed. I’m just more interested in the teaching. I feel like the majority of the professors are conservative, so in our classes we wouldn’t be forced to think critically about going to war in Afghanistan. Or, if we were, the overwhelming majority would say it was the right thing to do. While that’s not a statement in either direction, and I personally agree with it, I just feel like having a more liberal educational experience would be better intellectually as it would force me to develop my ideas fully in order to support them. </p></li>
<li><p>Again, my mistake on not wording it as well. I meant this more as to once a graduate is in the fleet. I feel like a economics major from a liberal arts university who did OCS is going to think more about ways to improve the fleet than someone who’s been told for the last 4 years that, “This is the Navy way and it’s the right way.” I’m doing an internship at a naval base near where I live and there is a prevailing attitude that ‘Oh, the Navy knows best’, when in reality, it may not. I just feel like I want to have a more open and critical mind that the Academy may not provide?</p></li>
<li><p>That’s a good point, thank you. Do you know how? Isn’t there a lights out policy?</p></li>
<li><p>My mistake for not researching that more. Thanks for the information! </p></li>
<li><p>I know, but sacrifices for what? I understand sacrifices for my country, etc. but…why for this? ROTC units have a week indoctrination session before the year starts, and they’re still commissioned as naval officers at the same time. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>And part of the reason for my shift was I used to be very reclusive with minimal social life, a hatred of school and learning about anything not related to the military, so there was absolutely nothing bad about the Academy (I didn’t care about having a typical college experience and all the Navy-related learning would be a bonus), but I’ve shifted in mindset. So I have friends who I do stuff with and I enjoy learning about all sorts of things that aren’t related to the military. And, I know that in the end I want to serve…so I’m just not sure.</p>

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<p>Well, better off to realize it now than to realize once you get there. You have time; keep thinking about it. </p>

<p>Just saying, USNA is normally ranked among the best for liberal arts colleges, but I can see what you mean. [Naval</a> Academy Ranked Top Public Liberal Arts School in U.S.](<a href=“http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=69529]Naval”>http://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=69529). #1, in fact. But I also feel like that the smallness of the Academy is good. Because of the low student:teacher ratio, (9:1, I think) more opportunities exist in discussing things with the professors, faculty, and your fellow students than at a larger State U, where sometimes classes can be 200+ students. </p>

<p>As far as staying up, over Plebe Summer you couldn<code>t, then lights out is pretty enforced, but I</code>m pretty sure that as far as the Academic Year goes, Taps is at midnight, but you can stay up as late as you want. They realize that people will have to stay up later to get stuff done. Don`t quote me on that though.

Sacrifices....ah sacrifice. For what, a good question, a question that drives some away from USNA. Youre right. NROTC is just as good as USNA. USNA officers arent necessarily better. Its all about the person, not the program they commission from. But why some want USNA is because its different. More military, less civilian. More focused on academics and not partying, like State Us (Not saying NROTC approves, or encourages, just noting the differences between the two). NROTC is great, but some like how with USNA, youre living and breathing the military more often than NROTC, where youre only in uniform once a week and taking classes. This sort of sums up what Im trying to say: [USNA vs NROTC officers - United States of America Service Academy Forums](http://www.serviceacademyforums.com/showthread.php?t=3449). That its up to you, but some prefer USNAs environment. This was another good one: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/naval-academy-annapolis/45188-nrotc-madison-naval-academy-somebody-help-me.html. Basically, what it seems to come down to is normal college experience vs. USNA`s experience.</p>

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<p>Thanks for all the info and the links, that does help explain it. Anyone else have any other input/perspectives to share? I’ve talked to a bunch of alumni and read a lot about the whole experience. Admiral Spruance hated it…a lot of people loved it…</p>

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<p>Just a general impression, worth precisely what it is costing you.</p>

<p>I sense you’ve “outgrown” your motivation and “heart” for USNA. Plan B or C might merit your serious consideration, as the valid questions you are sensing might well lead you to even further questions as dreamy ideology quickly morphs into harsh reality in Plebe summer and beyond. </p>

<p>Seems to me that unlike a great many, you are rightly not enamoured with the military rigor and pagentry and perceived glamour of USNA, but more so the end game, i.e. serving your country while increasingly dreaming of a more traditional collegiate experience. I’d be very fearful that your initial interest may continue evolving into a 2nd guessing and eventual bailing out while wondering “why in the world did I do this” sooner than later at USNA.</p>

<p>Still, there remains one academic question: What is your alternative? That always dictates the essence of an answer to your question. </p>

<p>Beyond that, while some may disagree, I’d hate to see you languish in the reality of guilt for failing to listen to your inner voice AND preventing another from pursuing the USNA spot you may have just been taste-testing.</p>

<p>Good luck. I believe you’ve made your determination. In any case and in the event you do go on to serve our nation, thanks in advance.</p>

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<p>It isn’t even as much the rigor and regimented lifestyle. More, it’s the feeling that I wouldn’t be able to fully develop intellectually. That’s not to say I wouldn’t learn, because I have no doubts that USNA is a great academic institution, but I just feel like some of that growth would be stunted by other tasks. I’m in NJROTC in high school, and I know that I grow frustrated when I have to spend time shining my shoes or brass…when I have a calculus test the next day. Is that a legitimate concern? </p>

<p>I’m considering doing Navy ROTC at University of Maryland which, ironically, because of the cross town at GWU, would require me to wake up at the same time, if not earlier for most of the Academic year. I’m not bothered by the things that most people are bothered by. Service commitment I could care less, getting yelled at I could care less (unless it was inhibiting my ability to learn other things), waking up early I could care less. I’m more concerned about opportunity for education. Some of the Academy grads, and non-grads who served, said that they considered USNA to be more of a trade school-preparing graduates to serve as naval officers, not necessarily focused on making them the most educated, implying that the military aspect of their education came before the academic. </p>

<p>I’m applying to a number of different universities, so I’m hoping that I have options. Ironically, if I did do ROTC at a non-HPYM university, I feel like I would be with more people who got rejected from Navy than people who were in a boat similar to mine. </p>

<p>I’m just trying to bounce ideas off people to see which concerns of mine are legitimate. My issues don’t seem to be the typical ones people ask about, so I haven’t been able to read about it elsewhere. I appreciate all your opinions. </p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

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<p>I’m in Navy ROTC and it’s absolutely the right fit for me. We have PT a few times a week (mustering at 0545), lab once a week (wear uniforms that day until COB) and Naval Science class twice a week (that includes learning basic stuff like ranks and rates, uniforms, etc so you won’t escape those classes in ROTC). The difference is, when we’re not at ROTC, were just like regular college kids holding a part time job. You’ll have something related to ROTC at least every day but some require more time that others. There’s a lot more freedom than at the Academy but we also don’t have as many experience related opportunities. </p>

<p>One thing to note - don’t bank on being a college programmer, that doesn’t lead to commissioning. You need to either pick up a scholarship or advanced standing by your junior year or you don’t commission. Keep that in mind when making your decision.</p>

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<p>da2013, Congratulations on your appointment!</p>

<p>I can understand what you mean by not being able to develop intellectually. </p>

<p>However, I can tell you from what I have observed that such a fear is actually somewhat misguided. </p>

<p>My uncle is a graduate of West Point, and while military indoctrination does occur at the academies, the academies DO NOT try to limit one intellectually. </p>

<p>I got to experience this first hand as I attended a Candidate Visit Weekend at Navy, and sat in on a leadership class. The topic for the class was actually a debate about the Benghazi Crisis. The instructor, a Navy SEAL, did not try to influence the midshipmen’s political opinions, but rather remained objective throughout the debate, encouraging all perspectives to arise during the debate. While one would expect a very limited variety of perspectives regarding the crisis, the midshipmen were actually quite varied in their opinions.</p>

<p>I am sure that there are other great examples of the academy encouraging different modes of intellectual thought. If the Navy or the Marines is what you really want to do, you shouldn’t turn USNA, the premier officer training school just because you think that your intellect will be stifled by the Academy.</p>

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<p>This is really a very simple issue. First of all, no institution is responsible for students learning to think. Many of the most genuinely “intellectual” people in history had little, no, or fully secular, mass education. The annals abound both in antiquity and today. It is naive to think that comes from some kind of mystical or professorial interaction. It comes from study, reading, inquisitiveness, access to bright minds, etc. And in the latter regard, the SAs are 2nd to none! The opportunities for learning AND trying are amazing. The experiences infused, places students go, things they do, and perhaps most important … the minds that are fully accessible to them is stunning. Remember, UNLIKE most elite institutions, the primary role of USNA professors is … TEACHING. That is far down the list of responsibilities of professors at elite institutions. Many places it is a minor miracle for an undergrad … or even a grad student … to get any real access to the great minds who are off giving or writing papers and refereed journal articles. THAT is how they get grants, tenure and promotion, and recognition. </p>

<p>So in reality, a SA student has far greater opportunity for substantial and continual intellectual interaction, experiential opportunity (at little or no expense), and intellectual development than at nearly any other institution he might consider. </p>

<p>But if you doubt this … I suggest YOU define what intellectual development and growth means … and how you would get that. I rest this case.</p>

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<p>Thanks for all the input guys. I appreciate it. </p>

<p>I think that, in light of what you all have said and what my friends there have told me, short of getting into an Ivy League school or MIT WITH an NROTC scholarship, I’ll probably accept my offer of appointment. Thanks a lot again. Conflicting views emerge often at my age, it seems.</p>

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<p>Congratulations on your appointment. That is a great achievement in itself and I applaud you. I think it’s only natural and good to question if a SA is right for you. My daughter went through and was one of those who questions things. I can’t tell you how many times we had the discussion that ultimately ended with me saying, “Is this the hill you want to die on?” Honestly, it didn’t serve her well at the Academy, with peer review etc. But it did impress the higher ups who saw that she was strong and independent and valued that strength. She validated a lot of classes and I know some work on masters work while there. So, academically, I think you could find enough to stimulate your mind. But if you are a questioner who doesn’t always like to go along, it might be tough for you. Saying that, I think you also have to think about life in the Navy much more than the 4 years at the SA. For my daughter, getting through was the goal because I knew she would excel in the fleet and she has. (Currently at NPS getting masters in EE). She has had amazing opportunities since graduating and continues to get them. While a ROTC path might be the best of both worlds for you, you also have to look at the marketability of a USNA degree. I was at a swim meet and was talking to a parent. Somehow Navy got brought up and I mentioned that my daughter was in the Navy. He asked if she went to USNA and then launched into how he hires for the biggest private engineering company and how he would love to talk to her…I said,“She still has several years of commitment and likes the Navy.” He said. I don’t care. We could have dinner and go over her opportunities etc. He was literally chomping at the bit to possibly get her sight unseen, in to talk. It does have weight and is something to consider.<br>
In the end, I would look at all of your offers, life goals, financial situation (nice not having loans) and then search your heart and you will know. Remember that very few choices are permanent. You could try it and opt out if it isn’t for you. Congratulations again.</p>

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<p>Rhodes Scholars announced (and Marshall and Mitchell schlolars, too.) :D</p>

<p>For those wondering about “intellectual development”, mind-expanding opportunities and evidence of its pervasiveness at USNA … :confused:</p>

<p>2 out of 31 Rhodes Scholars! Had 5 in 2 seasons a few years past. There areas of study? History, Chinese, Arabic, economics, English, philosophy, mathematics, and check out what they will pursue in graduate studies. Nary a single engineer here. And you begin to get a glimpse of why USNA is rightly or otherwise considered one of the top “liberal arts” institutions in the world. Because it is. :cool:</p>

<p><a href=“http://wavetops.usna.com.s3.amazonaws.com/December2012/WaveTopsDec2012.html[/url]”>http://wavetops.usna.com.s3.amazonaws.com/December2012/WaveTopsDec2012.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>P.S. While there are a handful of heavily represented Ivies and like-Ivies in this very tiny group, not nearly so many as you’d think. And note the number of public and relatively non-selective institutions represented. It’s a personal thing. See post #10 ;)</p>