<p>Good point Lewisloftus. If one wants a great football traditional, Notre Dame is har to beat.</p>
<p>Agree, no brainer, Dartmouth.</p>
<p>"But some people love the Fighting Irish football team so much, they would never dream of attending another university.</p>
<p>Are you that kind of person? "</p>
<p>Lol, no, actually, I don't care too much about football. I am drawn to Notre Dame more for its Catholic traditions and welcoming environment. Not to mention its beautiful campus and the amazing new science building they are putting in. But I plan to visit Dartmouth soon and get an impression of the campus. If I like it there- I will probably end up attending Dartmouth. If not, then most likely Notre Dame. </p>
<p>Thanks for the responses, guys!</p>
<p>The Aquinas Center on campus is a great place, but alot of the catholic kids at school (including my son), attend the catholic church in Hanover, by the Dartmouth stadium. You will definately find strong catholic students through Aquinas-which also offers many retreat weekends.</p>
<p>Thanks for the info, collegemadre- that's good to hear!</p>
<p>I read through most of the postings and disagree on the relative prestige. When I was making my decision (accepted at ND and Dartmouth for PhD), the VAST majority of people I talked to, including professors, gave me a "wow" when I mentioned Notre Dame. I am quite certain that ND is a bigger deal in the Midwest, and is certainly stronger in the sciences, especially chem and biol. In Chicago and Milwaukee, the Holy Trinity is Northwestern, Notre Dame, and U. Chicago. My impression after visiting both Notre Dame and Dartmouth was that they are physically similar in many ways (rural and gorgeous), but ND had seemed friendlier and more directed (goal oriented) to me. The hard part for me (and the hangup for many readers, I suspect) is the fact that Dartmouth is an Ivy League school. Logic screamed ND for many reasons in my case, but it's hard to walk away from the great 8.</p>
<p>Honestly, I doubt you could make a wrong decision. Both schools are great and known for their undergraduate education. The undergraduates here constantly surprise me (and make me feel dimwitted!)...I think the stat is that 2/3 of them were in the top 5% of their high school class. You won't be intellectually disappointed at Notre Dame. The residence hall system is one of a kind (no frats) and each hall is steeped in tradition and loyalty. Outside of education and prestige, I think Notre Dame has the advantage in having the complete college experience. Someone joked about having nothing to do but drinking in Hanover. ND has Division I sports, one of the best performing arts centers in the country, and is close to Chicago and Lake Michigan.</p>
<p>From a Catholic perspective, ND a utopia. Crucifixes in every classroom, a couple hundred priests on campus, Mass and confessions in every residence hall. The Basilica on campus is incredible and open all day for students to pray between classes.</p>
<p>All this being said, I don't mean to take anything from Dartmouth. I've tried to emphasize the good at ND since I'm here, but I know there is plenty of good at Dartmouth too. Best of luck with your decision!</p>
<p>Seems to me this is going to require either two-nite overnites or a coin-flip...and even then you may not (sorry...won't) know! You should NEVER have applied to those two schools!</p>
<p>Try this...(I think of this as I am typing)...choose a city you would like to be in 5 years after college graduation...check the web site of the two schools there and talk to someone at the alumni groups...see what's going on with them...that may be an additional aspect of what the college experience is about. (Alumni bonding at these two schools is important). See if they are really engaged in the city of your choice.</p>
<p>BTW, I would have been flattered to get such a call....try it with the Prez or VP at one of those alumni groups. How can it hurt (these are not obnoxious idiots, after all), and it will certainly add to your evaluation.</p>
<p>Dsalessi, </p>
<p>PhD and undergrad are very different . I would never go to Dartmouth for grad school outside of maybe Tuck.</p>
<p>Thanks again for your input, guys.</p>
<p>dsalessi- I know your experience was for the graduate schools, but do you know which school has a stronger undergraduate science program?</p>
<p>Also, I currently live in Minnesota and, although I really want to get away for four years, I can't imagine living anywhere else after graduation. Would it be better to choose the school with a great Midwestern reputation or the Ivy League school? It seems to me that, outside of those who memorise the Ivy League, Dartmouth's reputation doesn't always carry a staggering amount of weight- at least not more so than Notre Dame does (especially in the Midewestern/Catholic circles in which I often travel :)).</p>
<p>*note, both of the local alumni societies have contacted me and I am planning to meet with both. Both the ND and Dartmouth alumni networks seem great.</p>
<p>Slipper1234-</p>
<p>Not sure you would get a lot of support from reviewing the Med School placement results. And the Thayer School of Engineering? I will let the research engineers (assuming they read CC) weigh in on that.</p>
<p>There's a reason it's called Dartmouth <em>College</em> and not University, ya know 8^).</p>
<p>Slipper - I think Dartmouth would be a fine place to go to graduate school. Who your advisor is and what he or she does is typically more important than the school attended for graduate study. Of course, it doesn't hurt to have Harvard or MIT on your resume.</p>
<p>Shellzie - As an undergraduate, I doubt it matters where you go. Notre Dame has the bigger science/engineering research budget and has more undergraduates involved in professor and grad student research projects. Most of Dartmouth's research budget is in the medical school. Undergrad degrees from both places are going to scream that you are smart and were well-educated. If you're going to stay in the Midwest, ND will have the prestige edge to the average person. Obviously Dartmouth will win in the Northeast. I'm a degree snob and think that Dartmouth is a little more prestigious, but people like me who monitor the top 25 on the US News are not the norm. I didn't even know Dartmouth was an Ivy League school until a few years ago, and WAY more people know about Notre Dame than Dartmouth. Notre Dame was just listed 4th in the top 5 dream schools that parents wanted to see their kids go to (along with Harvard, Princeton, Duke, and Stanford). That should tell you something about the national perception of ND. And, in all reality, the lines of Ivy League prestige are being blurred by places like Stanford, Duke, Notre Dame, Northwestern, and even the great publics like UC Berkeley and Michigan.</p>
<p>You have to pick the school that fits you best, as generic as that sounds. When I was deciding, I wished for many months that my research advisor (who is awesome!) and fellowship award at ND could be transferred to Dartmouth so I could have it all at one place. I'm so glad I made a personal decision based on what was best for ME. I say if Dartmouth feels the best and makes the most sense, go there. If ND seems better, come here. My warning to you is to NOT choose Dartmouth soley because it is an Ivy League school. No one is going to care in 10 years which school you went to, they will care what you have done in your career. You are not comparing Harvard with the local community college, so I think you're discerning between the greater of two goods anyway.</p>
<p>Just attended a Notre Dame Alumni night last night, am not a alum, S was accepted ND EA Scholar.
H, S and I witnessed such warmth, such enthusiasm and genuine pride in this welcoming group.
It was wonderful, and the ND students make lifelong attachments which we witnessed first hand last night. There is a glimmer in their eyes-and I doubt you will find that at Dartmouth. You will learn in both environments, but where will you thrive ?</p>
<p>Please do write about your Dartmouth campus visit, and let us know about your impressions!</p>
<p>Dartmouth is full of the same glimmer - its also a friend for life environment. In fact, that's its hallmark.</p>
<p>Notre Dame in a second...I live in Nebraska, and I'd say your average person here hasn't even HEARD OF Dartmouth... I didn't even know it was an Ivy until this (my senior) year</p>
<p>People in the know are aware of Dartmouth, and the fact that its a better school. The guy working at McDonalds isn't really effecting your life, but other top 25 grads are.</p>
<p>wow, because the prestige difference between Notre Dame and Dartmouth will really enhance your life... right? really, like someone said earlier, this isn't a comparison between harvard and a community college. i would think most people who have heard of dartmouth have heard of notre dame and vice versa, if going to a school that is well known is that important to you.</p>
<p>I wouldn't advise basing a college decision on which degree is more well known or how other "top 25 grads" will view it. especially with academically equivalent schools like notre dame and dartmouth. go with wherever you think you'd enjoy spending the next four years of your life.</p>
<p>Thanks, guys- this is really helpful to see how other people perceive the two colleges. I will definitely let you all know how my Dartmouth visit goes- that may just be the deciding factor. And what SouthJerseyChessMom and Slipper said is so true- both Notre Dame and Dartmouth alums really seem excited about their schools. And both alumni associations have been calling/e-mailing/visiting me already. </p>
<p>Also, another question, I know Dartmouth is ranked 10 spots above Notre Dame overall in the US News rankings, but does anyone know how the individual academic departments compare? I have heard people say that Notre Dame would offer stronger sciences while Dartmouth has a stronger Chinese program. Does anyone have further input on this?</p>
<p>To say that Dartmouth is a bettter school is nonsense. I can tell you that in my field (environmental chemistry), Notre Dame is WAY better than Dartmouth and has some of the best, well-funded, nationally connected laboratories in the world. I am sure that in some other fields, the same is true for Dartmouth. You can't live and breathe the US News ratings as gospel. I see it as sort of a paradox; if you know about the ratings, you are probably also aware that they are very subjective. To be frank, I see Notre Dame as advancing in prestige far more quickly than Dartmouth these days. Fifty years ago, the decision would have been a no-brainer in favor of Dartmouth, but no more.</p>
<p>In the broad sense of a good liberal arts education for an undergraduate, my guess is that liberal arts colleges like Amherst, Wellesley, Pomona, etc. rank right up with and maybe above schools like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and our Dartmouth and Notre Dame. It's the old crusty academics that think that HYP is the Holy Grail that keep those ratings so inflated.</p>
<p>If I could do it all over, I'd go to a place like Amherst or another LAC for undergrad and then off to HYP for grad/med/law school. Look at a school like Harvard that has six-thousand some undergrads and twenty-thousand some grad students. I wonder where the emphasis is there. The good news for Shellzie is that Dartmouth and Notre Dame both emphasize undergrad education. And, as has been said by so many people, they are both incredible, prestigious places. I doubt that you are going to hear, "Oh, well you went to the University of Notre Dame. Too bad your degree doesn't say Dartmouth College." In fact, since ND has the biggest alumni network of any college in the world, I'd guess the opposite is more likely.</p>
<p>Dsalessi, </p>
<p>Dartmouth beats Notre Dame handily at EVERY metric related to undergradute education. Who cares about environmental chemistry - if you want a PhD go to a top 5 research school. Dartmouth places its grads at more than double the rate into most top 5 grad schools in every professonal area, and yet its 2/3 the size. The student body is much more diverse, is stronger, and gets into superior graduate schools. Its alum network is second only to Princeton. The few grad schools it does have are mostly ranked higher than ND, although I'll agree that's largely irrelevant.</p>
<p>You are comparing two undergrad focused schools and Dartmouth is better, hands down. But for the OP who wants to go to med school in Minnesota (not a top 15) and live in the midwest in that case it probably doesn't matter. You can choose Rice over Princeton, but at least you should be aware that one school is better than the other. </p>
<p>Once again I am not saying Dartmouth is a "must," but at least the fact that its superior should be accounted for. </p>
<p>Notre Dame has NEVER been ranked higher than Dartmouth EVER in ANY ranking system in the United States.</p>
<p>Every metric. You mean like overall graduation rate:</p>
<p>School Graduation rate
Harvard University (MA) 98%
Princeton University (NJ) 97%
Brown University (RI) 96%
University of Notre Dame (IN) 96%
Yale University (CT) 96% </p>
<p>And Dartmouth and Notre Dame are tied for 4-year graduation rate at 88%.</p>
<p>My comment was intended to go beyond a few nitpicky numbers, anyway. Dartmouth may be better for some, Notre Dame for others. I truly don't believe that Dartmouth is better because the quality of faculty and instruction is so similar at both schools. Both places are full of the best of the best, leaders in their fields.</p>
<p>As for graduate education, tell me where you saw more of Dartmouth's programs rated above Notre Dame. Dartmouth has awesome business and medical schools (typical New England). Notre Dame, to give some examples, has an excellent law school (22nd), philosophy department (11th), and theology (2nd only to Yale).</p>
<p>As for Dartmouth alumni:
"Two decades ago, more than 70 percent of alumni gave money each year; today, well below 50 percent contribute, and that percentage is dropping fast."</p>
<p>Notre Dame is just behind Dartmouth in giving percent in the latest rating, but led in 2005. Dollar-wise, it's not even close. Plus, ND's endowment is at least 50% bigger than Dartmouth's (ND now at over $3.5 billion).</p>
<p>I think that the amount of research going on at a school has a big impact on what sort of students it turns out. Students here invariably have the opportunity to work (paid) with faculty and grad students on cutting edge research in large research groups. Dartmouth does not have the capacity to do this. I mentioned Chemistry because that would be Shellzie's major.</p>
<p>I totally agree with you that Dartmouth is, at present, a little more prestigious. But better or superior!? Absolutely not. It's too easy to get caught up into the prestige component of the ratings (a whopping 25%).</p>
<p>I agree with Notre Dame leaders on rankings:
"Notre Dame officials take all of them with a grain of salt, believing that, while its better to be highly ranked than not, it is virtually impossible to quantify academic excellence."</p>