My son was accepted at both U of M and Notre Dame and is trying to choose between the two. He has friends that go to U of M so that makes it appealing to him, but doesn’t love the size. He likes everything about Notre Dame but is worried about the academics. He also doesn’t know anyone who has gone to school there. He is a smart guy (36 ACT) so I am not worried about that. I have been reading about Notre Dame and my concern is different. My son is a guy who wears training pants and sweatshirts almost every day. He loves video games and is a bit of a nerd. He gets along well with other kids (he was on homecoming court) but still likes to be alone some times. I have read about regattas, Yule balls, sweater vests, and green blazers all being part of dorm life at ND. It is very hard for me to imagine him in that environment. For those that go there, can a quiet gamer who wears sweatpants like a uniform fit in at Notre Dame? Would he be better off at U of M? Cost is not an issue and he is majoring in neuroscience. We live in Michigan. Any feedback would be appreciated!
I think your academics question can be answered by looking at the ACT and SAT ranges for each institution. UM reported a 2017 mid-50% ACT range of 31-34. ND reported a 2017 mid-50 of 33-35. So the average Notre Dame student is “smarter” by the measure of standardized tests (get similar results with grades). These are only averages of course, and you can argue forever about the value of standardized tests or other measures.
For the cultural fit, I don’t think there is a substitute for showing up at accepted student days and other ways to just hang out on each campus.
Congratulations to your son!! He will be completely fine at ND. Each dorm has a signature event but participation is voluntary, and the extent of participation individually varies–plus they don’t happen every other day. For the most part those kids work extremely hard and there’s a vast variety of personalities. Most importantly it seems they are all accepting. Feel free to PM me, the mom of a “quiet” child at ND.
I too am a Mom of a quiet child who is a freshman (engineering). Spent her 18th birthday in the dorm drinking hot chocolate and watching frozen with friends. Pretty sure she wears the same three sweatshirts and leggings everyday too. Is he a sports fan? My daughter has found a great sense of community attending the football and hockey games this year. Both are good schools. Academically my daughter has been very challenged at ND. She too had perfect scores and grades in high school. Last Chem exam she got a 65, class average was 67. At ND all she wants to be is average and she is struggling a bit to be average. Had a 3.4 her first semester and received the first C+ she’s ever had. She also wants to be challenged every single day and ND is certainly doing that. She has drunk the green kool aid…theres no place like home and home is Notre Dame. Daughter is our 4th to attend college. I have never seen such accepting and thoughtful kids than those at ND.
Try before you buy. So I’d recommend your kid attend the early admitted student open house for his major that happens in February. Not sure if neuroscience would be the science college or arts/letters. I think the science college open house is being held at the same time as the engineer college open house, so the geeks should be out in force at that time.
The school will match you up with a host kid from the major for a dorm sleep over Thursday night. You should also try to connect with a frosh kid through friends or the local ND alum club to stay over for Friday night as well. Have your kid go to a hockey game (usually on Friday and Saturday nights) and sit in the student section. He probably could attend a dorm party too. That would give your kid a pretty realistic taste of whether ND is for him or not.
You could also do other admitted student visits later on in the spring, but I think the sooner your kid visits the sooner he can start figuring out where he fits best.
Notre Dame, but I’m biased. DS was rejected from both.
My daughter goes to ND and I would tell you please don’t worry about those things. Each dorm has two big events per year, a “signature event” which is something only they do (either spirit building or for charity). Plus a formal dance. So the things you are describing are things that would happen only rarely. And if it’s an event in another male dorm, your son’s dorm wouldn’t necessarily be invited, depending on the event. There is no pressure to attend events at other dorms, it’s not the type of situation where “the whole campus is going” except for you. For the dances, many kids bring a friend or go with a group of friends, so not a lot of pressure to be dating or find a date.
My D attended Catholic schools, so wore a uniform to school all of her life. But outside of that, she was a princess in terms of how she dressed, and hair/make-up. At ND, she lives in leggings, sweatshirts and comfortable sweaters, Most of the time she doesn’t wear make-up, except on weekends to go to parties, etc. She simply doesn’t have time during the week and is less concerned. I find the change in her remarkable, in a good way. You also have to remember that most students are walking around in ND gear a lot of the time, which is basically sweatshirts and t-shirts, including the girls. Be prepared to drop a fortune in the bookstore on clothes.
In terms of quiet kids, my daughter’s roommate never parties and has a group of friends like her who watch movies and find other things to do. My daughter is a very serious student who studies like it’s her job, but does go to parties on the weekends. Then there are kids who party all the time. There is a mix of all types of kids there and your son will find his people, like they all do. It’s truly a great school with great kids. There’s a reason why their freshman retention rate is one of the top in the country, at 98%, second only to Columbia, Chicago and Yale
I’m a current freshman at ND and I would like to echo everything that has already been said in the previous comments. I know a fair amount of people who are more quiet and are still doing well academically and socially alike. While there are a lot of events hosted by different dorms, they are not obligatory in any way, and choosing to not participate does not put anyone at a disadvantage. Even though I consider myself a pretty social person, I did not go to my dorm’s SYR (similar to a themed high school dance) just because I was not in the mood for it that night. I easily found 4 other people in my dorm that opted to watch movies with me instead, even though the majority of people do usually attend the SYR. What you wear doesn’t matter at all; I think that most people will wear leggings/joggers/sweatpants and sweatshirts for the majority of the year, and while there are a few people who dress nicer, that’s more of a personal preference. I’ve never heard anyone talk about what someone else was wearing in a negative manner, only to compliment someone if they dressed nicer than usual or something like that. Video games are also not a problem, I am a girl and I have even been invited to video game night with some of my guy friends multiple times. I don’t even play video games, so if I am being asked to play, I think it is safe to say your son will have no shortage of video-gaming companions.
The academics are demanding, obviously, and I (along with every other student at ND) have never been anything but a top performer for the entirety of my academic career. It has been an adjustment trying to realize that I will not get perfect scores on all of my tests, and even studying for many hours will sometimes only get me a B- on an exam. It is challenging, but not impossible, to get A’s if you discipline yourself and work each day to improve your understanding or the quality of your work. During breaks between classes I will do homework and try to get ahead so I don’t stress myself out too badly, or I will look over notes from an earlier class to reinforce understanding. I find myself doing work nearly continuously, but it is also rewarding and I have time for socializing as well, especially during meal times, in the evenings, and on weekends. I’m an engineering major, and I know at least 3 people who have switched their major from engineering to neuroscience, so I’m familiar with the classes in that major, and they will be challenging, but not impossible. There are so many resources available to help students succeed, and from my experience the professors truly care about helping their students as well.
Coming into ND as someone with test scores on the lower end of average, I was terrified that I would struggle with academics, but I have been pleasantly surprised just because if I am struggling, there will be a resource available to me, whether it be going to office hours or signing up for small group study sessions.
Everyone at ND truly cares about their academics, but everyone also cares about each other’s holistic well-being. This is not a place that is cut-throat, like some Ivy League schools, where every student focuses only on their own work. Interaction and group work is encouraged for classes, and even beyond that, if someone is struggling socially or with something else, people are very supportive.
I also applied to UMich, and I also did not like how big it was. At ND, I feel that I can walk around campus and see a few people I know, but it is also large enough that there are many more people I do not know, and we all interact as a community.
I am biased obviously, but I would choose ND over any other university in the world. I have found my home here, and so have so many other students. People of every personality type and background thrive here, and we all feel at home.
Thank you so much for your post kelseyyfarr! That was so helpful! That you took the time to share all of this tells me a lot about you. If this is representative of the kind of students at ND then I would be thrilled for my son to go there!
This is a fantastic thread! Loved reading some of the parent’s perspectives as well as the thoughtful insights from @kelseyyfarr
My D is a junior at ND. She is quiet like your son and not into sports or partying. Her ND GPA is actually a little higher than her high school GPA but that is probably not very typical. I would be careful to compare ND and U Mich based solely on test scores of admitted students as UMich is quite a bit larger and a state flagship. We live within a few hours so we are on campus as a family several times a year. From visiting and speaking with my D, I would say there all kinds of students and your son should be able to find like minded friends. If UMich is “in state” for you there would be a huge cost differential and UMich is extremely well regarded
@Wje9164be With your daughter now in her 3rd year at ND, how does she like it? It is encouraging to hear these perspectives about there being all kinds of students, but I was wondering if she is happy with her choice of college.
I also think you made a great point about being careful when it comes to trying to compare ND and UM won the basis of something like test scores. As a large state flagship school, UM’s student body is going to be more diverse in terms of race and socioeconomic status than that of ND, so I would expect ND’s test score ranges to be slightly higher. None of this detracts from the fact that UM is generally considered a “public Ivy” and regarded in the same light as UCBerkeley, UCLA, and UVA in terms of academic reputation.
Unlike perhaps many of the students who apply and attend ND, we don’t have generations in the family who have gone there and it was not really her top choice. Over time though her circle of friends has grown and she has joined several clubs. Academics are challenging but it is not cut throat and the professors are very good. Take a look at the average pay of a ND professor vs a state flagship. Initially she did not make an effort to form friendships so she was a little lonely but she’s found her tribe now. We visited U Mich but she did not apply, too big
I’m a little late to chime in here, but must echo everything said above. I had both a daughter ('11) and son ('17) attend ND. Both of them, while different, found a home there. My son, especially sounds a lot like your son and was very happy! He is a sweat pants wearing, video gaming “nerd” that graduated in May, in Chemical Engineering. He lived in a dorm that had the events you mentioned and actually went to them and had fun! (I would not have seen him doing this when he was a senior!) He made great friends for life and looks on his time at ND as so special. I honestly can’t imagine him anywhere else now that he has finished! While I may be biased, I know for sure, that the Notre Dame student is something different…it is truly a home and a family for life.
Feel free to PM me for more info or to answer any questions you might have.
Attend the accepted student days at both. He’ll figure it out where he feels more comfortable and will find his place at either school.
My son’s a sophomore engineering student at ND, and he absolutely loves the school. He’s pretty social and athletic, but honestly, he and all his friends have a touch of nerd in them. There is a great sense of community and acceptance there, and the students are serious about their studies. A quiet student will feel quite at home. Except on game day in the student section!
Academics at either school will be rigorous, but the curve at ND probably more challenging, with the more homogeneously high-achieving student body.
With his test score and academics, he should also consider the honors program at UM.
Good luck!
For my daughter, who is now a freshman, the decision came down to ND vs. UMich. She was a pre-admit to Ross at Michigan and Mendoza at ND. I attended UMich, the family had no ND connections, and we are not Catholic.
We attended the admitted student days at both over a long weekend in late March. Both were nice but really didn’t help her make a decision since the two schools are hard to compare in an apples/oranges sort of way. They are fundamentally different in certain respects, especially w/r/t the residential life component at ND, and the decision is not so much which school one prefers but rather which sort of college experience one feels the most comfortable with.
She waited until just days before the 5/1 deadline to decide and ultimately chose ND, which she loves, and I’ve heard her say many times that she cannot see herself anywhere else. That said, if she had gone to UMich I think it’s likely that she would feel the same way - both were and would have been great choices.
So, if there’s advice to be had here, it’s go with your gut because there is no bad decision to be made here.
My daughter is a freshman at ND. Our family had no ties to the school prior to her acceptance. We are Catholic and when we went to visit the school, she fell in love with it. She is so happy there and has made great friends. It’s hard academically, but the school is making sure she’s getting the extra help she needs. I’m extremely happy with her decision.
I would also strongly consider the religious aspect. From what I have heard, ND is VERY Catholic, and not just in the kids who attend, but institutionalized. If you or your son are hesitant to having the teachings and rules of the Catholic Church permeating all aspects of their college experience, I would definitely ask questions of that nature, especially if your child is not coming from a Catholic HS. Always best to go in with eyes wide open.
My D is a junior at Notre Dame. She is not Catholic, and really not religious at all. It has not been an issue in the slightest.
OP, you can’t go wrong with either school.
@Gandbsmom: I think that your first post in this thread should have included the fact that your son is captain of the varsity swim team in high school as your portrayal of him as a loner & “a bit of a nerd” who loves playing video games, yet was on the high school homecoming court, might be somewhat of a mischaracterization of him.
This leads me to think that your fears about Michigan’s size as being unjustified.
An important consideration that has not been addressed is cost ? As a resident of Michigan, tuition at the University of Michigan is substantially lower than that at Notre Dame ($15,000 versus $52,000 tuition only assuming no financial aid or scholarships).
Assuming that cost is not a concern to you, then visit & the decision should be clear.