<p>Why would one pick one over the other?</p>
<p>They are very different. It is actually easy to chose based primarily on fit:</p>
<p>One is completely secular whereas the other is very Catholic.</p>
<p>One is quite liberal whereas the other is somewhat conservative.</p>
<p>One is located in the heart of a small city the other is rural.</p>
<p>In terms of academics and quality, both are awesome, but in all other ways, they are quite different. If you have visited both campuses, you should have walked away with a clear favorite. If you haven't visited both campuses, you should.</p>
<p>^ I second that.</p>
<p>Yeah, definitely.</p>
<p>They do have one similarity - strong athletic traditions that are cherished from within, and among those who have no other allegiances, but are completely and utterly despised by nearly any school who has ever played them.</p>
<p>Otherwise - ND and UM are very different. I would love a non-religious ND in Ann Arbor(but as far away from my house as South Bend), but that's just me. If the price was the same, ND is the obvious choice for me(but you aren't me). But I have parents who were Spartans.</p>
<p>Which one do you consider to be at the heart of a small city and one to be rural? Ann Arbor is 117,000 and South Bend is 107,000. Not that much of a difference.</p>
<p>The Ann Arbor metro area has close to half a million people. The area is significantly more developped than South Bend.</p>
<p>I guess South Bend could fit in the Big House.</p>
<p>Notre Dame is smaller, more undergraduate focused, less diverse that might make a difference to some students. Although ND alums are like no other.</p>
<p>"...ND alums are like no other"</p>
<p>I can think of a dozen universities (Michigan included) that can lay claim to such a distinction. Notre Dame alums are incredibly loyal to be suyre, but how are they different from Dartmouth, Duke, Harvard, Michigan, Princeton, USC, Texas, UVa or Wisconsin alums?</p>
<p>ND alums happen to be especially loyal bc they happen to be so similar to each other in religious, social, economic, and ethnic backgrounds as well as the fact that they all went to the same school. Most ND students/alums are white catholics who are usaully pretty well off. I guess this 'common' trait helps ND alums to feel more uniform and loyal to each other. </p>
<p>Aside from this discussion, I would personally pick UMich over ND. UMich is much more diverse than ND in regards to the student body. However, the deciding factor would be how expensive each school would cost.</p>
<p>Does one degree carry more weight than the other?</p>
<p>Uncle at JP Morgan told me he hires ND grads over UMich. ND is a top 20 school, Umich is 25 or something (not that that matters much). ND is way better for undergrad: smaller classes, more accessible professors, better study abroad, more diverse (geographically at least, although ND is a little over 25% minority too), etc. Btw, ND's alumni network is better than those mentioned above. It is rated in the top 3 in terms of alumni network, the other 2 being Harvard and Yale. If you are not instate and liked the campus/atmosphere, this is a no-brainer.</p>
<p>Your uncle is not in the majority at JP Morgan Joker. JP Morgan recruits more heavily at Michigan than at Notre Dame. </p>
<p>JP Morgan FULL TIME HIRES (2007)
Ross: 9
Mendoza: 6</p>
<p>JP Morgan SUMMER INTERNS:
Ross: 13
Mendoza: 8</p>
<p>[url=<a href="http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/rankings/undergraduate_mba_profiles/michigan.html%5DUniversity">http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/rankings/undergraduate_mba_profiles/michigan.html]University</a> of Michigan: Undergraduate Profile </p>
<p>
[quote]
Which one do you consider to be at the heart of a small city and one to be rural? Ann Arbor is 117,000 and South Bend is 107,000. Not that much of a difference.
[/quote]
Have you been to Southbend? There is absolutely nothing to do there. And once you get outside Southbend...</p>
<p>
[quote]
more diverse (geographically at least, although ND is a little over 25% minority too)
[/quote]
But most of them have similar backgrounds. ND's recruiting target is over 75% Catholic (enrolled class of 2006 is 84% Catholic).</p>
<p>Alexandre, you are twisting my words. What I said about JP Morgan is that they hire ND grads over Umich grads. The numbers you posted obviously are counterintuitive to what I said, but what I said could still be valid is less ND grads went for the jobs than Umich grads. And its not just my uncle who says this. Many employers go off of usnews and world report, which consistently ranks ND at least 5 spots higher than umich. Keep in mind this ranking is largely based off of prestige. </p>
<p>To say that neither schools are known for small class sizes is a complete farce. ND is known for a rigorous liberal arts education, i.e. small class sizes, discussion, professors forming deep relationships with students. According to US news and world report, the number of classes below 20 at ND is 55% compared with 45% at umich. At ND the student faculty ratio is 13/1 compared with 15/1 for umich. Furthermore, ND's graduation rate in 2006 was 96% compared with 87% for umich. I suspect the more accessible and helpful administration was a major part of this. ND, as a private school, gives personal attention that umich, as a state school cannot give. Consequently, ND's alumni giving rate is ranked 4th overall, while umich is ranked 83rd. Again all of this information is on usnews and world report. </p>
<p>ND is also more desired by many employers because the average ND student is much smarter than the average umich student. ND, as a school with 8,000 kids, is much smaller than umich, with 25,000 students. ND's acceptance rate in 2006 was 26% while umich's was 45%. ND's average ACT is 31-34 while umich is 27-31.</p>
<p>Another strong point about ND is its emphasis on ethics. This is part of the reason that the 2007 rankings of B-schools put ND at 3rd, moving the secular ethicless umich back to 6th. </p>
<p>In terms of diversity, ND draws many students from all over the country, while umich, being a state school obviously does not. I must apologize that ND does not use affirmative action like umich does. Sorry that ND has not been to the supreme court twice like Umich has for reverse discrimination. </p>
<p>Obviously umich is a great school, but it is limited in so many ways by its status of a public university in a state, michigan, with serious problems. If you're not instate and you don't mind the catholic environment, you'll be singing, hail, hail to ole notre dame!</p>
<p>What programs are Notre Dame known for, besides football in the 1920s and '40s?</p>
<p>Let me see Joker. Fewer ND grads wanted to work at JP Morgan than Michigan grads. Since ND has a larger class and since they are so much smarter than Michigan grads, one might deduce that JP Morgan sucks as a place to work. I'm surprised your uncle works there. He must have a low self esteem. I suggest he should look for work where most of the ND graduates go. That way he can continue to give graduates of his alma mater an edge. I see it's not working where he is now. :-)</p>
<p>
[quote]
Alexandre, you are twisting my words. What I said about JP Morgan is that they hire ND grads over Umich grads. The numbers you posted obviously are counterintuitive to what I said, but what I said could still be valid is less ND grads went for the jobs than Umich grads. And its not just my uncle who says this. Many employers go off of usnews and world report, which consistently ranks ND at least 5 spots higher than umich. Keep in mind this ranking is largely based off of prestige.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>And, I wouldn't be surpised if some employers other than JP morgan would hire UMcih Ross grads over ND grads any day, which is close to reality, esp. in wall street. I've seen many reports, which showed that UMich Ross was one of the handful 'target' schools for wall street, while the name of ND isn't a usual guest on this list. Besides, I think that pretige wise, UMich and ND are about the same. If you are comparing Stanford to UMich or Stanford to ND, there will be noticeable differerences to the employers. This 3 or 4 spots up and down in us news rankings don't mean anything, really.</p>
<p>"What I said about JP Morgan is that they hire ND grads over Umich grads. The numbers you posted obviously are counterintuitive to what I said, but what I said could still be valid is less ND grads went for the jobs than Umich grads."</p>
<p>Thejoker, that does not make sense. Even if it were true, and somehow, more Ross students wanted to work for JP Morgan, I am pretty sure you will agree that Mendoza students are as likely to aim for Wall Street IBanking jobs as Ross students. Afterall, Finance is the most popular concentration at Mendoza. According to the Mendoza website, roughly 45% of Mendoza major specifically in finance. That's roughly 250 students per graduating class...almost the size of Ross' ENTIRE graduating class.</p>
<p>MCOB</a> : Facts at a Glance</p>
<p>Ross does not offer concentrations. Students major in General Business, but I can guarantee that Finance is not a more popular option than it is at Mendoza.</p>
<p>Despite the fact that Mendoza is much larger than Ross and that it students concentrate in Finance in great numbers, Ross still placed more of its students into top IBanks than Mendoza in 2006-2007:</p>
<p>Ross (full time placement):
Citigroup: 10
Goldman Sachs: 9
JP Morgan: 9
Credit Suisse: 8
Deutsche Bank: 7
Bank of America: 5
Lehman Brothers: 5
UBS: 4
Morgan Stanley: 2
TOTAL: 59</p>
<p>Mendoza (full time placement):
Citigroup: 8
Deutsche Bank: 8
Merrill Lynch: 7
Morgan Stanley: 7
Goldman Sachs: 6
JP Morgan: 6
Bank of America: 4
CIBC: 3
TOTAL: 49</p>
<p>Ross (summer interns):
JP Morgan: 13
Credit Suisse: 12
Deutsche Bank: 12
UBS: 11
Citigroup: 9
Lehman Brothers: 9
Goldman Sachs: 5
Morgan Stanley: 5
Merrill Lynch: 4
Royal Bank of Scotland: 4
TOTAL: 84</p>
<p>Mendoza (summer interns):
Morgan Stanley: 9
JP Morgan: 8
Merrill Lynch: 7
Goldman Sachs: 5
Lehman Brothers: 5
Citigroup: 4
Deutsche Bank: 4
UBS: 4
TOTAL: 46</p>
<p>I don't think the numbers lie. Mendoza is 40% larger than Ross and yet, places fewer of its students into top Wall Street IBanks. And where the difference is really striking is in the summer internship opportunities. I highly doubt you can attribute the difference to lack of interest on the part of Mendoza students.</p>
<p>Furthermore, Ross also seems to be more popular than Mendoza among Management Consulting firms. Bain hired 5 Ross students and McKinsey and BCG hired 2 each from Ross last year. They did not hire that many from Mendoza. Are you telling me that Mendoza students also don't like Management Consulting jobs? How about West Cost high tech jobs? Google, Intel and Microsoft all recruited heavily at Ross, hiring a combined 15 students for full time jobs last year. It does not appear to be the case at Mendoza. </p>
<p>"Many employers go off of usnews and world report, which consistently ranks ND at least 5 spots higher than umich."</p>
<p>Actually joker, as a recruiter for many major companies, I can assure you that most employers actually do not really focus that much on the USNWR rankings. And if they did, a 5 or 6 spot difference won't really make a difference. Do you really think Princeton is more respected than MIT or that Penn is more respected than Columbia or that WUSTL is more respected than Notre Dame just because they are ranked 5 or 6 spots higher on the USNWR? </p>
<p>"Keep in mind this ranking is largely based off of prestige."</p>
<p>Actually, the USNWR overall ranking is not a measure of prestige. It measures statistical differences and blows them up so as to turn tiny differences into major trends. The only part of the USNWR that can be construed as "prestige" is the Peer Assessment score, and that is debatable. According to the USNWR, Michigan's Peer Assessment score is 4.5/5.0, roughly equal to those of Brown (4.4), Chicago (4.6), Columbia (4.6), Cornell (4.6), Dartmouth (4.3), Duke (4.4), Northwestern (4.3) and Penn (4.5). Notre Dame's Peer Assessment score was lower, at about 3.9/5.0. I personally think that Michigan and Notre Dame are both very prestigious in their own way. Michigan probably has broader appeal because of its sheer size and the impact of its research. However, Notre Dame is not more prestigious than Michigan.</p>
<p>A lot of your reasoning in the second and third paragraphs of your post #14 is linear and assumes a common frame of reference. I am not going to go into the details, but sufice it to say, you are free to believe what you wish.</p>
<p>"Another strong point about ND is its emphasis on ethics. This is part of the reason that the 2007 rankings of B-schools put ND at 3rd, moving the secular ethicless umich back to 6th."</p>
<p>Wow, that's a pretty strong accusation. Again, not really worth commenting on your observation. However, although businessweek does rank Mendoza slightly higher than Ross, few will actually agree with it. According to that same ranking, Goizuetta and Mendoza are ranked higher than Haas, Ross, Sloan and Stern. To most recruiters, that ranking would not ring true. That's primarily because the Businessweek bases its rankings on highly volatile crietria. However, the USNWR (which you seem to really respect and trust) ranking of BBA programs, ranks Ross #3 in the nation and Mendoza #18 in the nation. If you think there is a significant difference between #19 and #25, I cannot imagine how significant a difference would exist between #3 and #18!</p>
<p>"In terms of diversity, ND draws many students from all over the country, while umich, being a state school obviously does not."</p>
<p>Joker, you do realize that Michigan has over 3,000 undergraduate students from the East Coast, over 1,000 undergraduate students from the West Coast and close to 1,000 undergraduate students from the South? Michigan also has 1,300 international undergraduate students. Altogether, there are 8,000 undergrads hailing from the remaining 49 states and 3 territories and another 1,300 undergraduate students coming from over 100 countries. In fact, Michigan has a higher percentage of international students than Notre Dame. Actually, Michigan has one of the most international and global environment among all US universities. </p>
<p>But I do agree with you that with 65% of its undergrads hailing from the State, Michigan cannot be viewed as mega-diverse. Then again, I am not sure how you can claim that Notre Dame is diverse when over 80% or its students are Catholic. Religion is at least as strong an identity and mindset as state residence, if not stronger. </p>
<p>"I must apologize that ND does not use affirmative action like umich does. Sorry that ND has not been to the supreme court twice like Umich has for reverse discrimination."</p>
<p>Again, I do not understand your basis for attack. What has Michigan done to you? Michigan's use of affirmative action for undergraduate admissions was indeed faulty and it has been rectified...5 years ago. </p>
<p>"If you're not instate and you don't mind the catholic environment, you'll be singing, hail, hail to ole notre dame!"</p>
<p>Joker, I am not from Michigan. I am not even American. And I happen to be devoutly Catholic. And yet, here I am, singing Hail to the Victors!</p>
<p>
[quote]
Many employers go off of usnews and world report, which consistently ranks ND at least 5 spots higher than umich. Keep in mind this ranking is largely based off of prestige.
[/quote]
This is news to me. The only employers I know who know anything about USNWR rankings are the ones with kids applying to college.</p>
<p>The only "prestige" factor in the USNWR ranking is "peer assessment" with ND at 3.9 compared to Michigan at 4.5.</p>
<p>Michigan probably gets better students in its business school because they can filter out the weak ones while ND takes them all. This accounts for Notre Dame's larger size I imagine. According to those businessweek links Michigan gets 935 internal applicants for the business school, if they accepted all of those then their school would probably be twice the size of Notre Dame's. So Michigan already does the work for the recruiters by only taking the best 38% of applicants into the school.</p>
<p>The downside to going to Michigan is that if you can't get into the business school, then what do you do?</p>