Notre Dame vs. UPenn

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Notre Dame
1

<p>After what has been a grueling college application experience, I have my options for next year narrowed down to Notre Dame and the University of Pennsylvania. My plan is to go into the Humanities.</p>

<p>I feel quite pressured to go to Penn. I know that, as an Ivy League school, a degree from Penn would open doors for me that few could even imagine. I don't really feel pressured by my family, but a number of people whom I've spoken to—teachers who've gone to Oxbridge, and even one of my interviewers for another Ivy to which I was rejected—have pointed out that so many more opportunities are available with an Ivy degree, even from one of the so-called "lesser Ivies." Penn is no Harvard or Yale, certainly, but it is an exceptionally good school.</p>

<p>But I will be brutally honest: My heart tells me to go to Notre Dame. I am so drawn by its incredible sense of community and, really, the overall sense of purpose. I was accepted, in this admissions cycle, to twelve different institutions in both the U.S. and Canada. But I know quite honestly that if I denied ND, I would always be asking myself, "What if?", in a way that I know would not happen if I denied any other institution. I will ask "What if?" if I deny Penn as well, but the question would assume a much different character.</p>

<p>I have my sights set on grad school already, and I'm particularly interested in applying, when the time comes however many years from now, to Oxford and Cambridge. Penn, I know, would make it easier for me to get into superior grad school programs.</p>

<p>Still, I know that I would be personally happier at Notre Dame. It's not that I would be unhappy attending UPenn; to be totally honest I know if I attended I'd in all likelihood spend four perfectly happy years there, and end up with a very valuable degree. But I cannot shake the feeling that I would get more than mere happiness from Notre Dame; a greater sense of purpose, perhaps. I think ND would enable me to change fundamentally as a person for the better.</p>

<p>So will someone tell me whether or not I'm crazy to even think about turning down an Ivy? And does anyone know of people who have been in a situation like this before? This may very well end up being one of the most important decisions I'll ever make.</p>

<p>Thank you so much for your help.</p>

2

<p>I was faced with a similar choice four years ago. Notre Dame or Caltech? It was a terribly hard decision. Now that I’ve graduated and entered life outside the Emerald Isle, I can tell you that a Notre Dame degree is every bit the equal of any ivy, and in many cases, the superior. If I were to compare it to a school in this set, Dartmouth would come to mind. Small classes and a focus on the undergraduate define Notre Dame. Research is available to you but the professors don’t focus on their research over their students. One definitely grows at Notre Dame in ways one couldn’t at an Ivy. </p>

<p>That’s my plug for ND. Anyone can tell you that the University of Pennsylvania is an awesome school, but I’d be willing to bet that if you asked a random person to name the Ivies they might miss it. The Ivy name carries with it great prestige, especially abroad and in academia. It’s a hard choice, one that you definitely have to think carefully about. However, I can tell you that in my four years there, my classmates and I grew to love our school in a way that left us in tears to leave Her. </p>

<p>Too often, high schoolers think very narrowly when they’re applying to colleges. I myself completely excluded the academies on the simple basis that they don’t have very many Ph.D.s teaching classes, and that seemed like an inferior education. However, as I have grown I have learned that I would trust a Navy engineer with more than any Harvard grad, whose degrees are associated with arrogance and the ivory tower as much as they are with superior education. I have heard many engineering recruiters say they shy away from the ivy league for this very reason, that the arrogance created from going to these schools makes ivy engineers difficult to work with. I understand you’re not an engineer, but as an engineer, it’s what I have to contribute to this conversation. </p>

<p>The alumni network at ND alone will open more doors than an Ivy League name. You sound like someone who belongs there. </p>

<p>PS I’m at the #3 grad school program in the country for my field. There isn’t anyone from UPenn here, while we have two ND grads in the department, an ND grad as a professor, and another ND grad coming in next year. Notre Dame doesn’t hurt your grad school chances, my friend.</p>

3

<p>I would like to emphasize that I mean no disrespect to the University of Pennsylvania, but as a Ph.D. student who loves my alma mater, I am quite enthusiastic about my support!</p>

4

<p>I’m sort of happy I didn’t have to make this decision – I got into Notre Dame, but UPenn and Cornell both rejected me. I can say, however, that your sentiment is not unique – I felt very similar to you during the admissions process. My heart always was partial to Notre Dame and a day didn’t go by when I wondered what would happen if I got into Notre Dame and one of the two Ivies I applied to.</p>

<p>As you know, you have a very, very difficult decision ahead of you. But you also must keep in mind that choosing between Notre Dame and the University of Pennsylvania is a good problem to have. Let me just tell you that you won’t find many people on the Notre Dame forum tell you that you are crazy for thinking of turning down UPenn. Notre Dame has a very special aura to it and grads swear by their experiences there.</p>

<p>Good luck.</p>

5

<p>

Seems pretty clear-cut to me.</p>

6

<p>Agreed with the others. Go with your heart, have a great time and enjoy Notre Dame and never look back.</p>

7

<p>Absolutely. Definitely pick ND over UPenn. That is easy! UPenn is way too big for undergraduate school. Instead, you could go to UPenn for graduate school (where the classes are small). You ought to read Loren Pope’s books. He went to Harvard and said it was a scam. He explains why and strongly recommends smaller schools so you can get attention and learn for the sake of learning vs just getting the grade to survive. ND is bigger than he recommends but it is at least smaller than UPenn (holy cow!). You will become a number at UPenn which is terrible experience. I went to SMC and loved it. Notre Dame is so unique and it was a wonderful place to call home. If you can get in, that is saying a lot. Good luck! :)</p>

8

<p>

To be fair, Penn only has ~2,000 more undergrads than Notre Dame…</p>

9

<p>“So will someone tell me whether or not I’m crazy to even think about turning down an Ivy?”</p>

<p>No. But you ARE crazy to even think about going to graduate school in the humanities, especially if your goal is a tenure-track position at a decent U.S. university. The disparity between the number of available positions and the number of newly-minted PhDs in nearly every humanities field is appalling. But if you are intent on this goal, keep in mind that it will be your graduate record, and not the name of your undergraduate institution, that will get you one of those coveted positions. No one will care very much where you got your undergraduate degree, and, if you are good enough, you can get into top-flight graduate programs coming out of Notre Dame.</p>

10

<p>Please note that we ARE on the ND board, and there’s likely to be some bias. I’d suggest revisiting both if possible and see if your opinions have changed.</p>

11

<p>Another point to consider – most Notre Dame students are attending their first choice college. A non-trivial number of Penn students are “settling” for their second or third choice, having been dinged by HYPS. That makes a very big difference in the campus atmosphere.</p>

12

<p>FWIW, I graduated from ND with degrees in French and English and received my MA in French from Washington University in StL and my Ph.D in French from Princeton. Going to ND will in no way hurt your chances for an Ivy League doctorate if you work hard and get top grades in your classes. Plus, you’ll have a wonderful four-year experience that will help you grow in many other ways besides intellectually.</p>

<p>(But my own son is trying to decide between ND and an Ivy now, so I understand your dilemma.)</p>

13

<p>Thank you all so much for your input. My decision has now been made a little easier, though I do plan to think this through very carefully until May 1.</p>

<p>To be honest, if I were to choose now I would go with my heart — in this sense I belong in the Romantic Era, haha. But Penn is an Ivy, and any number of factors — especially financial reasons, seeing as I have not yet received my FA packages from either school — could push me either way.</p>

<p>Honestly, ND conforms more to what I want out of life. I am, yes, Catholic, and so ND’s sense of purpose really does appeal to me personally. But education has also been for me personally enriching, so hopefully in a couple of years I’ll be able to say something like, “I went to ND, and now I’m headed to grad school at Oxford” or at an institution equally prestigious. Rest assured, I’ll work as hard as I can academically at whatever school I choose. I’d just be happier doing it at ND, and, to be honest, I don’t really care much for financial success or personal recognition of the type that a Penn education could potentially offer me.</p>

<p>Again, any factor could eventually lead me to either ND or Penn. But in the meantime, I have a few questions to ask. If I attended ND, my plan involves double majoring in History and in Film, Television and Theatre. But as a Canadian (or really, a U.S.-Canada dual citizen), it is important to my sense of patriotism to achieve fluency my country’s other official language, French. So how difficult would it be to double major and also take classes in the French department? Is a double major and a minor possible? Or would it be feasible to double major in History and French, and minor in FTT?</p>

<p>Thank you for all your help. While I still have a very difficult decision ahead of me, your input has made it in many ways easier.</p>

14

<p>My son had a similar choice to make a couple years ago. We visited several IVY’s, Wash U, U of Chicago, and Northwestern. On the long drive back home between Hanover,NH and Chicago I suggested we stop in South Bend to tour ND. </p>

<p>In the end the decision to stop at ND changed everything. The sense of community, school spirit, and focus on undergraduate education won him over. In his case it was Dartmouth vs Wash U vs Northwestern vs ND. </p>

<p>I am sure you would do well at Penn or ND, but I know my son’s heart led him down the path he is on and he loves it.</p>

15

<p>From my experience, as long as you have room in your schedule you will be able to take the additional classes. As a humanities major you will have a language requirement anyway, so that will be an opportunity for you to take those French classes.</p>

16

<p>Thank you guys so much.</p>

<p>I’ve done some more research, and I’m sold on Notre Dame. Provided my FA package is reasonable, I’ll attend in the fall.</p>

<p>Obviously I’m now quite worried that my FA package will not turn out very well (my FA from Boston College was very bad, not that I’d ever go there anyway), which would now be my only reason for denying ND. I found out, actually, that the College Board received my IDOC materials the day after it was technically due… so, yeah, I’m pretty scared right now.</p>

<p>Still, I hope and pray that it works out. Thank you all so much for your help. I have indicated my preference, so now I hope that the FA office makes this possible for me.</p>

17

<p>onimpulse–It’s great you have decided on ND. I really hope your FA comes through for you. I just sent in my deposit for ND and my rejection to Dartmouth. It really was not a difficult decision for me. I just have the feeling that after my time at ND I will come out a better person, both academically and spiritually. Some people could not believe I would turn down an Ivy but when it comes down to it …“Nowhere else but Notre Dame.”</p>

18

<p>i personally love UPenn, but if your heart tells you to go to Notre Dame you should. if you ignore what you truly want, you might end up regretting it later.</p>

19

<p>@loveneweng Yeah, I really, really hope the FA package works out for me, because I’ve been 100% sold on ND… Thankfully, according to a PDF available on the website, “Documents submitted after the priority deadline will not negatively impact the amount of aid you will receive,” so perhaps I can get my FA package soon.</p>

<p>After this process I am not surprised at all that you chose ND over Dartmouth. There’s just something so unique in the ND experience…</p>

<p>@quakerhopeful Thanks for your support haha. My heart is honestly telling me to Notre Dame, and I think that if I pass up this opportunity I’ll regret it in ways that would not happen with any other school.</p>

20

<p>I turned down Dartmouth to go to ND despite a lot of pressure from my friends and classmates to go to the Ivy League School. I think I can honestly say that it was the best decision I ever made. The education you will get at ND will not be inferior to the one you’d get at UPenn and the experience will be amazing. UPenn is a great school that would give you a lot of opportunities, but don’t underestimate the power of the name recognition and alumni network ND has.</p>