NU vs. BERKELEY!

hawkette · June 3, 2007, 6:43pm

UC Berkeley’s reputation among academic circles is unquestioned although much of this is likely due to the efforts of their graduate programs. However, when measured in nearly all of these categories, Northwestern gets the better of the comparisons. The undergraduate experience at Northwestern is likely to be more intimate while still taking place in a world-class university.

On the issue that the OP asks about business and marketing, I suggest that postgraduate business opportunities should be a major consideration. Both schools can place students effectively on a national basis, but employers in their home regions will be more familiar with the school in their local area. Clearly UC Berkeley has a terrific network on the West Coast while Northwestern’s strength will be in the Midwest.

Here are the broad comparisons for the two schools:
O B J E C T I V E D A T A

UNDERGRADUATE ENROLLMENT 
Northwestern 8153 UC Berkeley 23863

% AND # OF STUDENTS WHO ARE IN-STATE 
Northwestern 23%, 1875 UC Berkeley 93%, 22193

% OF FEMALE STUDENTS 
Northwestern 53% UC Berkeley 54%

% OF WHITE/NON-HISPANIC STUDENTS 
Northwestern 59% UC Berkeley 29%

% FROM PUBLIC HIGH SCHOOLS 
Northwestern 73% UC Berkeley 85%

% OF STUDENTS IN GREEK LIFE (Male & Female)
Northwestern 32%/38% UC Berkeley 10%/10%

TOP MAJORS AT EACH SCHOOL (acc to collegeboard.com)
Northwestern 20% Social Sciences, 18% Journalism & Communications, 14% Engineering, 10% Performing Arts, 9% Psychology, 6% History, 5% Biology
UC Berkeley 20% Social Sciences, 13% Engineering, 10% Biology, 6% English, 5% Bus & Mktg, 5% Psychology, 5% Interdisciplinary Studies

IS & OOS COST (Tuition & Fees) 
Northwestern $35,429 UC Berkeley $6,654
Northwestern $35,529 UC Berkeley $25,338

TOTAL COLLEGE ENDOWMENT AND PER CAPITA (undergrad and grad)
Northwestern $5.14bn, $302,322 UC Berkeley $5.7bn, $170,857

AVERAGE HIGH/LOW IN FEBRUARY 
Northwestern 35-18 UC Berkeley 59-46

GRADUATION RATES 
-% OF STUDENTS EXPECTED TO GRADUATE IN 6 YEARS:
Northwestern 91% UC Berkeley 90%
-% OF STUDENTS WHO DO GRADUATE IN 6 YEARS:
Northwestern 93% UC Berkeley 87%
-% OF STUDENTS WHO GRADUATE IN 4 YEARS:
Northwestern 85% UC Berkeley na

FACULTY RESOURCES 
-% OF CLASSES WITH <20 STUDENTS
Northwestern 72% UC Berkeley 59%
-% OF CLASSES WITH 50+ STUDENTS
Northwestern 9% UC Berkeley 15%
-FACULTY/STUDENT RATIO 
Northwestern 1-Jul UC Berkeley 15/1

STUDENT SELECTIVITY 
-% ACCEPTANCE RATE 
Northwestern 30% UC Berkeley 24%
-SAT/ACT RANGE (Middle 50%) 
Northwestern 1320-1500 UC Berkeley 1200-1450
-% OF STUDENTS RANKING IN TOP 10% IN HS CLASS
Northwestern 83% UC Berkeley 99%
% OF STUDENTS WITH HS GPA > 3.75 (Unweighted)
Northwestern na UC Berkeley na

<h1>OF NMS FINALISTS IN 2005 (% of student body)</h1>

<pre><code>Northwestern 178 (8.87%) UC Berkeley 53 (.90%)
</code></pre>

<h1>OF 1500 STUDENTS ENROLLED (% of student body)</h1>

<pre><code>Northwestern 1998 (25%) UC Berkeley 3668 (16%)
</code></pre>

ALUMNI GIVING % 
Northwestern 29% UC Berkeley 14%

S U B J E C T I V E D A T A

PEER ASSESSMENT 
Northwestern 4.4 UC Berkeley 4.7

kyledavid80 · June 3, 2007, 6:58pm

^^ a lottttt of useless data. How about we count the # trees on each campus and compare them that way too? >.>

hawkette · June 3, 2007, 8:13pm

kyledavid,
There are a lot of important comparisons that are made and provide some insight into these different institutions and the undergraduate experience that you might face. Both of these are very good schools and the ultimate choice should go based on fit, but there are measurable differences that may have value for some students. Sure, some data has more relevance than others, but I think your characterization is more than a bit off and perhaps a little defensive. If you have other data to present, then do so and make a counter argument. If measuring the number of trees is important to you, then go ahead (and as I've previously mentioned to you I love the Tilden Park area near UC Berkeley which is filled with wonderful trees).

FWIW, I see the use of such data as useful in making some initial judgments about a school. I suggest that you look at the data, think about what it means for your individual circumstance and use it as a source from which to draw more questions in the discovery process.

kyledavid80 · June 3, 2007, 10:36pm

^^ no, my characterization isn't a bit off or defensive -- I would say that about any two schools being compared. For example:

-% ACCEPTANCE RATE
Northwestern 30% UC Berkeley 24%

How does that matter? It's not very indicative of anything, is it? Or:

<h1>OF NMS FINALISTS IN 2005 (% of student body)</h1>

Northwestern 178 (8.87%) UC Berkeley 53 (.90%)

And this is important because ...?

I've looked at this sort of data and more quite a bit. There is absolutely no way that many of the metrics have any sort of impact on a student. And any judgment drawn based on many of those metrics would be rash. Half this data is believe to be important or indicative of the quality of the school and/or the student body, but I hardly think so (and many others would agree). Numerous other measures exist that are much more useful, such as the average financial aid package.

gd016 · June 4, 2007, 4:15am

kyledavid:

i agree, some of the data seems a bit useless but there are certain figures that are in fact very important for those who are comparing the quality of student life and student body at the undergraduate level.

-UNDERGRADUATE ENROLLMENT
Northwestern 8153 UC Berkeley 23863

UCB's student body is almost three times the size of NU's student body. like someone mentioned above, it is undeniable that each student at NU will be getting more one-on-one time with their professors compared to students at UCB. it's an advantage of attending a private school, but i'm sure there are merits to attending a large public school like UCB such as atmosphere and school spirit, so that's up to the OP to decide.

i'd also like to address why Sam said it's harder to get into the Kellogg certificate program at NU. i don't think any of the NU students here are undermining the quality and intensity of Haas; the heart of the matter is that the Kellogg certificate program for undergrads at NU is "extremely exclusive." of an undergrad population of 8153, only 50 students will be selected, and this will be based on academic performance at first and second year at NU.
referring to hawkette's figures:

-SAT/ACT RANGE (Middle 50%)
Northwestern 1320-1500 UC Berkeley 1200-1450

NU has an SAT range that is almost a 100 points higher than UCB. but for the Kellogg program only 50 students will be selected from applicants who have already made it through an enormous amount of competition to be economics major, MMSS majors, IEMS majors at NU. it is bound to be selective. as opposed to Haas, the Kellogg certificate is not a separate school for undergrad business; it's an exclusive program. and like elsijfdl stated, the quality of education at Kellogg is word-class, as ranked in the business week as #1.

so, kyledavid,

"Wait, you're saying the NU will be more competitive than Berkeley? You're kidding, right?"

no. nobody here is kidding.

gd016 · June 4, 2007, 4:33am

oops,

i never got to put in my two cents for the OP. to answer the OP's question, i personally think both schools are excellent academically but i agree with aquamarinee in that you'll definitely find the professors more approachable and personal in your classes at NU. the student-to-faculty ratio at NU is 7:1 while more than 75% of the classes have less than 20 students in the classroom.

both schools have an equal amount of prestige and access to business opportunities in the city, it's a matter of preference from here on out: SF or Chicago?

my vote is for NU, but if you are a californian resident and financial aid is a concern for you i also urge you to take that into consideration. i'm a californian resident but i turned down UCB for NU because financial aid wasn't a big concern for me. an education at NU will be worth the tuition, but UCB offers an excellent education as well, so if financial aid is a concern take that into consideration when making your decision.

gd016 · June 4, 2007, 7:41am

joshua:

i don't mean for this thread to become a fight between UCB and NU students. like i've mentioned in previous posts time and time again, UCB offers an "excellent" education to its student. it's undoubtedly the best public university in the US, and when comparing schools at this caliber there is hardly a distinction in academic prestige.

when i stated that Kellogg offers a world-class education in business, i had absolutely no intentions of undermining the quality of education at Berkeley. it was part of my response to kyledavid's statement: "Wait, you're saying the NU will be more competitive than Berkeley? You're kidding, right?" there is no reason it should be seen as a joke when we state NU is more competitive than Berkeley. NU has a very competitive student body, and this is factually justified by its SAT scores, NMS finalists, etc.

"You're assuming that all the 8,153 students at NU are interested to get that certificate."
and no, i am not assuming that the whole school is applying for the certificate. quoting my previous post, i stated "but for the Kellogg program only 50 students will be selected from applicants who have already made it through an enormous amount of competition to be economics major, MMSS majors, IEMS majors at NU. it is bound to be selective." The applicants for the certificate will mainly be from those majors and programs which are extremely difficult to get into in the first place.

"If we will remove these 5,965 students at Berkeley, then people here will conclude that NU is a better school than Berkeley." i'm sorry, i'm just having a hard time understanding what you mean. Are you saying that if we remove 5,965 students at UCB who scored below a 1,200 on the SATs, then UCB would be a better school than NU? of course, it would raise your SAT scores, but those 5,965 students are a part of your school, and constitute a good portion of your student body. they are a part of what your student body represents.

you would remove over a fourth of your student body to match the SAT standard of NU?

gd016 · June 4, 2007, 9:05am

and i just noted your statement:

"For grad school level, NU would look a pity to be compared to Berkeley's powerful grad program. For grad business (MBA), both are pretty equal and are on the same level as Chicago, Stern, Ross, MIT-Sloan, Columbia and the like."

how in the world do you say, NU "would look a pity" in grad school compared to UCB while saying they are on the same level for MBA? NU ranks #1 in business week; UCB ranks #13. that's far from "equal." we're all trying our best to get our points across without coming across as offensive; so please try to refrain yourself from making such unsubstantiated inflammatory statements.

hawkette · June 4, 2007, 9:25am

At the risk of inciting a riot, let me say that for undergraduate education, the folks at U Virginia and William & Mary have as much a claim on top public school in America as does UC Berkeley. If you compare the three schools, the Virginia schools stack up quite nicely.

joshua007,
One big gap in your analysis is transfer students. Last year, UC Berkeley accepted 3096 transfer students (equal to 74% of its entering class). While we will never know for sure, it is quite likely that many (most?) of these were not Top 10% high schools students and/or their SAT scores were below the UC Berkeley average. Yet their statistics are not included in the profile for UC Berkeley, thus potentially inflating the Top 10% and SAT levels for the school.

By contrast, Northwestern accepted 238 transfers or about 12% as many as are in their entering class.

Sam_Lee · June 4, 2007, 11:36am

<ol>
<li>I am very sure Kellogg certificate will be HARDER to get in. Why? I've seen people with 3.8 GPA applying for MMSS (sophomore entry) and being rejected. Kellogg certificate, will be at least as competitive, if not more. Note that this is actually a negative for the OP. So I don't know why people even want to fight this to claim the "honor".</li>
<li>Kellogg certificates aren't open to just IEMS or MMSS students. It's open to all. But IEMS and MMSS curriculum automatically fulfills most (IEMS) or all (MMSS) of the pre-requisites for the Kellogg certificate.</li>
<li>Kellogg certificate is different and far from a full-blown undergrad business major. It has a very specific focus; there's no marketing, leadership, organization behavior.... Although there are only 4 classes, they are more advanced than typical ug business courses. The prerequisites suggest parts of the curriculum will be fairly math-oriented.</li>
<li>As for Berkeley being tougher than Stanford, I have done some research on this and I found that it's mostly based on heresay. Maybe that's the case for highly impacted and competitive majors like electrical engineering, but in general, data suggest it's likely easier to get higher GPA at Berkeley. The data I saw are basically prelaw/premed placement data showing GPA/LSAT or GPA/MCAT for applicants from both schools and I have found more often than not, Stanford students with the same GPA as those in Berkeley have scored higher on the LSAT/MCAT. This has to do with the fact Stanford's students are of higher caliber. That Berkeley is tougher applies more to total slackers as Stanford doesn't like to fail people much. So if all you want is just a passing grade, then Stanford may be easier.</li>
</ol>

kyledavid80 · June 4, 2007, 6:57pm

gd016:

"of an undergrad population of 8153, only 50 students will be selected, and this will be based on academic performance at first and second year at NU."

That's a false statistic. Though there are only 50 students, how many are actually vying for the spots? I don't think all 8153 undergrads are going into the Kellogg program. =)

"NU has an SAT range that is almost a 100 points higher than UCB."

As an added note, NU superscores; Berkeley does not (nor does it place a large emphasis on scores, either -- more on GPA).

"no. nobody here is kidding."

'Twas a rhetorical question. And I simply find it a bit contradictory that one at NU can a) get more one-on-one interaction because it's smaller than Berkeley, yet b) still be more competitive -- in terms of grading curves and grades ("therefore the curves in the classes are steeper and getting good grades is even harder") -- than Berkeley, which is frequently cited as being one of the most difficult universities to get an A at, and is notorious for being competitive. The grading curves, I'd say, are harsher at a large public school than at a small-medium private.

elsijfdl · June 4, 2007, 7:18pm

[quote]
grading curves, I'd say, are harsher at a large public school than at a small-medium private.

[/quote]

once again, you attack people who are posting numbers with unsubstantiated assertions. no one cares what "you'd say"

to attack your unsubstantiated remarks with some of my own (except i will use SAT scores and actual grading practices):

coming from someone who has been an undergraduate student at both "a large public school" and a "small-medium private" i can assure you it is much more difficult to secure an A at the "small medium private"

in both instances the schools will arbitrarily "cap" the amount of As given out, usually to around 15% of the class. The only difference is, at the large public school you are dealing with, say, 100 students with an average SAT score of around a 1280, and at the smaller private school you are dealing with, say, 80 students with an average SAT score of 1400. The students at the private school are inherently more capable of high quality work by virtue of their academic "aptitude" (that is what the SAT measures).

on a generalized note, i found, and i doubt many will disagree, many more students at a large public school who simply do not care about their class work, are there because it's basically a state-funded extension of their high school, and do not try in the class. You can count yourself out of the bottom 10% right there if you simply do work, already 10% closer to getting an A.

At my private school, again on a generalized note, there are less students like that. there are hardly ANY slackers.

not that, again, i can understand why this discussion has degenerated into something like this. for the fifth or sixth time: they are not comparable programs.

Sam_Lee · June 4, 2007, 9:22pm

elsijfdl,

Actually, privates tend to give larger % of As than publics. Even within NU, there's a significant gap among diffferent schools. The music school is way more generous than McCormick.

kyledavid80,

<ol>
<li>regardless whether schools superscore or not, the difference is fairly insignificant. I have done a hypothetical analysis on this to find that's likely the case. It's also confirmed by the fact that the difference in ACT score (which schools can't superscore) between Michigan and Northwestern mirrors their difference in SAT.</li>
<li>Kellogg certificate is open to all majors. You are right that not everyone will be vying for the spot. The pre-reqs will screen out many that aren't comfortable with math. Of course, we have many that aren't gonna be interested in it anyway. Still, Kellogg certificate isn't gonna have 60% admit rate like Hass program. Why? Because the Kellogg certificate goes with any major whereas the Hass program is a major itself. You don't need to change your major/school for Kellogg cert. Keep in mind there are already 200-250 econ and 100 IEMS majors per class at NU. There are also 30 MMSS sophomores with a SAT average of 1470 in any given year and they don't have to do anything extra to be eligible to apply (their curriculum fulfills all the prereqs). I'd be surprised many of them aren't thinking about it. Not to mention other engineering, math, sciences, or social sciences majors that may be interested in it also.</li>
</ol>

elsijfdl · June 4, 2007, 9:52pm

[quote]
Actually, privates tend to give larger % of As than publics.

[/quote]

it seems, sam lee, as if you are wrong in this case

average gpa at berkeley: "approximately 3.25"
"almost 50% [of grades] were A's [at UC Berkeley]"
"Data from the Ivy League schools indicated that 44% to 55% of their students received "A" grades"
<a href="http://ls.berkeley.edu/undergrad/colloquia/04-11.html%5B/url%5D">http://ls.berkeley.edu/undergrad/colloquia/04-11.html</a>

purely for the sake of comparison:
average gpa at northwestern: 3.32
<a href="http://www.northwestern.edu/univ-relations/observer/stories/harrie.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.northwestern.edu/univ-relations/observer/stories/harrie.html</a>

Sam_Lee · June 4, 2007, 10:05pm

elsifdl,

Techinically, I wasn't wrong cos I said publics in general, not specificly Berkeley. ;)

But thanks for the link. Looks like Berkeley's grade "deflation" is more a myth. This is the case for Cornell also.

Northwestern's GPA is 3.32 but for Weinberg and McCormick, it's more like 3.21-3.26.

kyledavid80 · June 4, 2007, 11:53pm

elsijfdl:

"once again, you attack people who are posting numbers with unsubstantiated assertions."

Do tell me how that's an "attack."

"no one cares what 'you'd say'"

It was a parenthetical element* -- surely you could see that? Take it out if you want; the substance of the sentence remains unchanged.

<ul>
<li>They add nothing to the sentence. =)</li>
</ul>

"to attack your unsubstantiated remarks with some of my own (except i will use SAT scores and actual grading practices):"

Again with this "attack." Nobody here is attacking anyone else, but if you want to affect that manner, go ahead. We can end this discussion here.

"coming from someone who has been an undergraduate student at both 'a large public school' and a 'small-medium private' i can assure you it is much more difficult to secure an A at the 'small medium private'"

Appeal to the authority argument.

"The students at the private school are inherently more capable of high quality work by virtue of their academic "aptitude" (that is what the SAT measures)."

I find it (parenthetical element again!) sad that you place such emphasis on the SAT. Do you honestly believe that because NU's (superscored, emphasized) SAT scores are a bit higher than Berkeley's, Berkeley students are "weaker" and thus it's more difficult to get good grades at NU? Really, this is utter nonsense.

"... are there because it's basically a state-funded extension of their high school, and do not try in the class."

Agreed. You'll find apathetic people at every school, even Harvard. I could just as easily generalize and say that those apathetic people at private schools are there because they are just wasting their rich parents' money and do not try in class. Doesn't work, does it?

"At my private school, again on a generalized note, there are less students like that. there are hardly ANY slackers."

It's as though you realize the fallacy of your argument. If you haven't had experience with all 8-thousand or so undergrads, then you can't say how many slackers there are. (Though, of course, I don't doubt that there are fewer "slackers" at an elite private school than at a public school, even though the latter is an elite too.)

"for the fifth or sixth time: they are not comparable programs."

I beg to differ, still. You have so far provided little evidence to the contrary, and that which you have is weak. Think of it like this:

You get a 2120 on the SAT.
Your friend gets a 2020 on the SAT.

Do you honestly believe that you're substantially smarter than he is? Come on. Or let's try this:

% students in the top 10% of their class
NU: 83%
Berkeley: 99%

Therefore, Berkeley students are stronger and thus it's more competitive and difficult to maintain good grades. Doesn't work, does it?

Really, Berkeley students are set to the same standards as NU students, except they aren't in the "nurturing environment" that characterizes private schools. The curves are just as steep, too.

Let me give you a little insight, for your knowledge, into Berkeley's student body and its SAT scores. For one, Berkeley is a UC and thus emphasizes GPA and other factors much more than SAT; as you may know, it was UC that threatened to drop the SAT from the admission requirements, causing the writing section to be added. For another, Berkeley doesn't superscore like many of the top privates. Additionally Berkeley admits two kinds of students: the really awesome students (the ones who get into NU and such) and some not-so-good students. Now, you ask, what makes Berkeley any different from, say, CSU Sacramento, which admits many mediocre students and above? It's that Berkeley manages to attract the awesome students to matriculate. That is the key. I believe there are more 1500+ scorers at Berkeley than there are at even Harvard -- because it, Berkeley, attracts them, though CSU Sacramento won't. But Berkeley also has some not-so-high-scoring students, yet it allows them in. Why? Because, after all, Berkeley is a public school; it is meant to serve the people of California, and so it attempts to give an excellent education to as many students as possible -- though of course within the limits of selectivity. Many of the not-so-high-scoring students get in for other reasons: essays, uniqueness, accomplishments, ECs, etc. just as at any other selective school. So, in essence, Berkeley is like Northwestern, Harvard, etc. in that it can attract great students* but it also has this "tail" of students who are not quite up to that par (but of course still pretty good).

At any rate, the difference in supposed quality between the two student bodies is negligible. People, including you it seems, don't seem to realize that within the top schools, it's difficult to find quantitative (and qualitative) differences that matter.

<ul>
<li>in this context, we're going by SAT scores for demonstration, though obviously the students will have numerous other impressive attributes.</li>
</ul>

kyledavid80 · June 5, 2007, 12:00am

Sam Lee:

"regardless whether schools superscore or not, the difference is fairly insignificant."

I disagree.

"I have done a hypothetical analysis on this to find that's likely the case."

I'd like to see this, as there have been various (failed) attempts at simulating this.

"It's also confirmed by the fact that the difference in ACT score (which schools can't superscore) between Michigan and Northwestern mirrors their difference in SAT."

We're talking about Berkeley, by the way, not Michigan. I would find this statistic faulty, as there are much fewer students who take the ACT on the West Coast than elsewhere; the ACT is more common in the Midwest. (I can't seem to find Berkeley's ACT range, anyway.)

"Still, Kellogg certificate isn't gonna have 60% admit rate like Hass program."

Admit rate means little, as you should know. And it's Haas, not Hass.

"Because the Kellogg certificate goes with any major whereas the Hass program is a major itself. You don't need to change your major/school for Kellogg cert."

Yes, and here's where the difference really begins, which makes comparison of the two more difficult. But I can assure you this, and you can disagree as much as you want: the difference in quality between the programs is negligible; both will provide an awesome education that prepares business students well.

Sam_Lee · June 5, 2007, 1:50am

kyledavid80,

Pull out a spreadsheet and run a hypothetical scenario with 100 students or so. Use common sense for your inputs. Remember, most people improve in both sections upon retake. There are also many that don't retake.

Michigan is a good example for 2 reasons:
1. like Berkeley, it doesn't superscore SAT
2. it has large enough number of students with ACT scores

I am using Michigan as an example to illustrate how superscore doesn't change the overall SAT average much. That it's not Berkeley is a moot point. I know this may not be intuitive as superscore does make a big difference for certain people or even someone you know. But when you have large number of students (samples), it's a different story after all the averaging.

Also, Michigan just happens to have very similar SAT to Berkeley, so that makes the comparison rather easy. According to collegeboard, the mid-50 ranges are:

Berkeley
1200-1450 SAT; median ~ 1325

Michigan
1210 - 1440 SAT; median ~ 1325
27 - 31 ACT

Northwestern
1320 - 1500; median ~ 1410
29 - 33 ACT

So NU's median is about 85 points higher than Michigan's (and Berkeley's). A 2-pt difference in ACT is equivalent to 80-90 points difference in SAT! If there's really no difference in SAT average after you get rid of superscore, then there shouldn't be much difference in ACT between Michigan and Northwestern. But there is and the difference in ACT mirrors that in SAT almost perfectly.

[quote]
Admit rate means little, as you should know

[/quote]

Well, let's just look at Haas admission;
<a href="http://www.haas.berkeley.edu/Undergrad/statsucb.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.haas.berkeley.edu/Undergrad/statsucb.html</a>
60% admit rate and the average GPA is 3.63 (these are mostly not science GPA). Are you telling me that's really tough? I don't think so particularly when you can plan and pick classes that give easy A (and there are plenty of those at Berkeley as the link few posts up show).

<a href="http://www.haas.berkeley.edu/Undergrad/ucb_prereq.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.haas.berkeley.edu/Undergrad/ucb_prereq.html</a>
The prereqs are very basic. As far as math goes, only 1 semester of calculus is needed. Such prereqs also mean you can avoid sciences and bunch of math classes, for which people whine about the grading curves.

For Kellogg cert, the prereqs ask for significantly more. Since this is new, nobody knows what kind of GPA is needed to get in. But I bet it will be easily above 3.63, based on what I've seen for sophomore entry to MMSS program. And Kellogg cert is way more hyped and popular than MMSS.

Sam_Lee · June 5, 2007, 1:56am

joshua007,

Berkeley fans like you are trolling around CC with these grad school rankings and can't seem to standup on their own. It's the very reason why threads like XX vs Berkeley get tiresome and long because you guys keep being in denial and just don't get it. Show us stats that actually reflect the achievement of undergrads like med school placement rate, wsj feeder ranking, fraction of students winning Rhodes/Marshall scholarships...etc.

PennFan2012 · June 5, 2007, 2:05am

kyledavid, I am floored that you would put the NU certificate program on the same level as a degree from Haas. The certificate is brand spanking new, consists of 4 courses, and there are no placement stats. Now I'm not bashing NU, but this is an untried and untested program. I just find it absurd how one (a Berkeley student no less) could equate it with a Haas DEGREE, which has outstanding curriculum and placement.

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