<p>Cellardweller,
I agree generally with your well-articulated points, but I still see a differentiation between Asian kids who are here already, going to US high schools and usually citizens, and the kids who are coming directly into college from China, where there appears to be a well-oiled machinery in place to falsify essays, test scores, language proficiecies, and other selection factors. If someone has cheated so thoroughly to get into college, do we really want them there? As I have mentioned in earlier posts, my kids go to a STEM magnet and hang mostly with Asian kids, so this is not an anti-Asian or anti-Chinese rant. But there are credible stories about rampant cheating inside China to get into US schools.</p>
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<p>I am well aware of these stories. I am also aware of that many colleges have taken steps to limit problems in the future by refusing to work with agents who take large fees and commissions from applicants. Not all schools have perfected the admission of Chinese applicants, but the situation is improving. It never was a real issue at the top schools anyway which always were very selective. I know that my own alma-mater, MIT, will independently verify transcripts, international math and science awards, and personally interview each applicant. It would be virtually impossible to cheat in that process. </p>
<p>It would be a completely disproportionate response to prevent many highly qualified students from applying and attending because a minority have been found cheating on essays and recommendations. If one were to deny admission to all applicants who had somebody else write the essay, many US applicants would also be denied. There is no evidence of large scale cheating on the SAT for instance, where many Chinese will score extremely high. Same thing with transcripts which typically show grades in the 70s and 80s, because of the very severe grading in Chinese high schools. There is probably more cheating on the SAT in the US than in China as recent scandals in Long Island, NY have shown. Grade inflation is also rampant across US high schools. </p>
<p>There is no doubt that plenty of highly qualified Chinese students are applying to US colleges and merit to be admitted. They are rapidly becoming the most visible segment of the international student community. Their financial contribution is a major shot in the arm to the severely stressed US higher education system. Asians in general and Chinese in particular were always highly present in US graduate schools, it is just a more recent phenomenon that are now applying for undergraduate studies as well. This will certainly have very positive implications in the long run, especially considering the geopolitical issues and global rivalries between the US and China. People who study, work and live together are much more likely to understand each others point of view and resolve their differences peacefully.</p>
<p>Well said, cellardweller; thanks for the additional insights.</p>
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<p>I think that what may have been a small minority of cheaters has escalated into a big funnel of families who can pay for someone to get their kid into a top US college. If your ethic in your home state means something different than here in the US, “cheating” on entrance exams, essays, etc is what is expected. You do what the advisors say to do. Your kid gets in to a good US college, your family can probably benefit later.</p>
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<p>There is no evidence that there is a big funnel of cheaters getting their way into “top colleges”. Most of the known abuses have centered around second and third tier colleges without the resources for proper verification. I certainly have not seen any evidence, even anecdotal, of “top” colleges admitting undeserving Chinese students. While embarrassing cases of forged applications resulting in improper admission have been reported even at Harvard, so far all the cases involve US applicants, not internationals. </p>
<p>There is on the other hand, plenty of evidence of unscrupulous intermediaries charging uninformed Chinese families huge fees to get their kids into third tier colleges which already admit nearly all applicants.</p>
<p>fncdad,</p>
<p>I was thinking about the same thing. Thanks!</p>
<p>It is not the Asian issue. It is not the African American issue. It is not truly an issue of ethnic diversity. There are many accomplished and qualified U.S. citizens of Asian ancestry to select. It is the issue of should a U.S. university consider foreign students who bring revenue over students in the United States.
Also, let us not assume that every Chinese child who is applying is hard working. Many are not. My child is attending school with many students from mainland China who have been sent here for school. Many of them brag about how their transcripts were “doctored”. One girl told my son that many of the Chinese students come because their parents can afford to send them and they are not doing too well in Chinese schools.<br>
currently,there is an article on line in the Washington Post Social that addresses this issue.</p>
<p>IceQube,where did you get this formula? Wow! I didn’t know that it was that easy. As a minority graduate of Yale and Princeton,if I had realized all that was needed was a 2.5 , a 1500 and no criminal record,I wouldn’t have worked so hard. Neither would I have put so much effort,time and money preparing my children for higher education. I think I will go upstairs and tell my kids they can slack off. IceQube has stumbled upon the truth.</p>
<p>Seriously, I wish people like you would stop perpetuating the belief that there under-achieving Black,Hispanic students who beat out over-qualified white kids. While we are at it, let’s eliminate the myth that every Asian kid is high-achieving.
I would also recommend that you read The Price of Admission by Daniel Golden. Perhaps, that will give you greater insight into some variables that influence admissions decision-making at universities. Until then,I wish you would stop spreading poison. You are really uninformed.</p>
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<p>Well, these students that bring revenue are the ones that fund many of the scholarships for US students. Without the billions of dollars brought in by international students, many colleges would be strapped paying for basic educational services, let alone improvements in facilities. </p>
<p>International students have been coming to the US for decades and now represent the majority of students pursuing advanced degrees in the sciences and engineering. Without the constant influx of talent from overseas there would be no Silicon Valley. </p>
<p>The US has always been a nation of immigrants drawing the best and brightest from all over the world. </p>
<p>Frankly, the average level of US high school students has reached such a low point that without an influx of internationals there will soon not be enough qualified US students to fill American universities. The number of high school graduates has already peaked and enrollment is declining. Not every Chinese student coming to the US is a genius, far from it, but the average level of college preparedness in Chinese high schools is far higher than in the US. The students coming over are not the ones dropping out.</p>
<p>^…and I have been accused of being a racist. Your post is dripping with an air of superiority. I would like to say more but it might border on inappropriate.</p>
<p>Listen, I am just stating facts even if they are not pleasant to hear. I am not Chinese but my own kids, born and raised in the US, have indirectly benefited from the influx of full-pay students from China. We should stop presenting this issue as “us versus them”. Everybody benefits from the bargain; they get access to a great education difficult to find in their own country and we get badly needed funds to keep up the facilities, pay the professors and give scholarships to needy students.</p>
<p>There are no scholarships at Ivy league schools. You are either speaking of the state schools that are actively pursuing Chinese nationals which I already addressed or you are failing to realize that the Ivy League schools and the like could fill their seats with enough Americans who are just as qualified as Chinese students. By the way I have a son who graduated MIT and two who graduated Cornell and I beg to differ with you that American education falls short. The only problem I see with the American education system which other countries don’t understand is that we educate all of our young people. Go to China and tell me if they educate all.</p>
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They don’t offer merit based scholarships but they offer plenty of need-based aid in part funded from tuition revenues. BTW, I also have a kid who graduated from MIT and her need-based aid is officially designated as a “scholarship”. I am an EC for the school so I am quite familiar with MIT’s financial aid policies. </p>
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<p>I was not speaking of American universities. I was referring to the US K-12 education system which is widely acknowledged to be among the worst among developed countries. The US can’t even break into the top 20 countries in math and science competency in the PISA rankings, while China comes in at #1. </p>
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You are seriously misinformed if you believe other countries, even much poorer than the US, don’t educate all their children. China certainly does and considering the size of the population perform an amazing job. All citizens must attend school for at least nine years. The government provides primary education for six years, starting at age six or seven, followed by six years of secondary education for ages 12 to 18. They also have 11 million students in university. </p>
<p>The difference in average competency in reading, math and science is embarrassing (for the US) at the end of high school. </p>
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<p>I don’t know about that. It is certainly false at the graduate level where there has been a shortage of US students for decades. Even at the undergraduate level, there is a shortage of STEM students in the US. In mathematics, foreign students especially from China have dominated all the international competitions for years. Since you have a kid who went to MIT, you may want to check where all the most recent Putnam Fellows have come from. Nearly all were recruited from China. Same thing at Harvard, Princeton and Caltech. Top math talent on a global level is now overwhelmingly Chinese.</p>
<p>Oh boy, I’m going to be busy this hour replying to momma-three.</p>
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<p>Huh, that’s funny. When I was in sixth grade, my middle school was planning to adopt new math textbooks. The school invited parents to examine the books and pick which one they thought was the best. Right before the deadline came up, I told my father about the invitation. He was the only parent in the entire school who offered an opinion.</p>
<p>You can take care of fundraising; we’ll take care of the education.</p>
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<p>Let me fix that for you: One of the biggest problems facing “enlightened liberals” in America is their belief that ethnic Chinese and other Asians have such a desire to stay separate from American culture.</p>
<p>Do you know what it’s like growing up and always being seen as a foreigner? Has anyone ever come up to you and said, “Do you speak English?” Has anyone ever remarked to you during a conversation, “Wow, your English is really good!” How about unintelligible utterances that “sound Chinese,” ever heard any of those said to your face? No? Then you have NO idea what you’re talking about.</p>
<p>And no, I did not make any of the above up. I’ve gone grocery shopping before and been asked if I speak English. I attended a church-related activity with my second-year roommate (from China) and was told, with no malicious intent, that I spoke excellent English. And of course, like just about every American of any Asian descent, I’ve heard my fair share of nonsensical noises that “sound Chinese.” I don’t think I’m speaking for myself when I say that most Americans of Asian descent go through a phase where they think they’re “white” because of these things, so don’t give me your “desire to stay separate” unless you know what you’re talking about. (Which you don’t.)</p>
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<p>I’m not sure if that’s your way of dealing with a “young’un’s sass,” but it’s quite condescending of you to praise an American’s use of Americanisms merely because said American is Asian and not white.</p>
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<p>Is it that we do not assimilate into American culture? Or do you not want us to?</p>
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<p>I wouldn’t want your friendship if I knew that you believed that we don’t want to assimilate and viewed us as “the other.”</p>
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<p>You posted no stats. Other people posted anecdotes, but did that change your belief? Nope!</p>
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<p>Oh, let’s not do this, please. If you didn’t want people to think that way, uh, then don’t go around authoritatively stating that Americans of Chinese ancestry don’t want to assimilate into American culture, mmmkay? You’re asking for it if you make that charge and then stand by it even as you admit that you have nothing to back it up.</p>
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<p>I don’t think you’re racist, but your posts pretty clearly show that you’re prejudiced against Americans of Chinese descent. If you disagree, how about we do a test? I’m going to list two passages, and you tell me what the difference is between the two:</p>
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<p>For bonus points, tell me where I paraphrased the first passage from, and think about why I picked that as the comparison!</p>
<p>As for not assimilating, the recent [seven</a> on one beating in Chicago](<a href=“http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/01/19/police-arrest-chicago-teens-involved-in-beating-that-went-viral/]seven”>Chicago Teens Charged in Brutal Beating That Went Viral | TIME.com) shows that some Americans of Chinese ancestry have assimilated the wrong way. Here we have seven kids, most of whom were ethnically Chinese, beating up an ethnic Chinese student and calling him the n-word.</p>
<p>There is also what is known as giving in kind to the universities by presenting the school’s point of view, ensuring that the school is not misrepresented and denigrated, and volunteering as an alum.</p>
<p>I notice that Sam Lee does that admirably for his almamater.</p>
<p>Since momma-three has yet to rescind any of her statements, I’m not beating a dead horse. Back when I was in high school and preparing for the SAT, I read a passage from The Joy Luck Club from the red book. One of the characters’ mothers told her daughter that here in the United States, she would always be viewed as a foreigner. But if she visited China, she didn’t need to open her mouth or even move a muscle; they would know instantly that she wasn’t one of them.</p>
<p>Here’s an [url=<a href=“http://www.cnngo.com/shanghai/life/american-in-disguise-rural-China-554992]example[/url”>http://www.cnngo.com/shanghai/life/american-in-disguise-rural-China-554992]example[/url</a>] of what I’m talking about. At the end of day, will there be people like momma-three who believe what they want to believe about whether these “others” want to assimilate? Sure. But who cares?</p>