<p>I have not read this entire thread so forgive me if this has already been stated but from personal experience I know that international fees for graduate work at Oxford are substantially higher than for those from the UK so I assume that they are higher for non-UK/EU undergrads as well. You could possibly argue lack of choice regarding study abroad programs at Columbia but ascertaining the "real" cost and how much Columbia actually makes from the programs is a bit more difficult.</p>
<p>Another point - and I almost responded to the Times article regarding this - is that Columbia makes it clear from day one that they don't just take credits from anywhere overseas - even if a particular educational program happens to be ranked highly. You have to do it in their well established way at a college where they have a relationship. The Columbia student in the NYTimes article must have known that and blithely thought that they would make an exception for him. I am glad that he was able to finish his degree at Oxford but his credit issues were not Columbia's problem. Let the buyer beware.</p>
<p>My daughter attended Columbia's program in Paris. She studied through their center at Reid Hall, taking some classes there and at the Sorbonne. Columbia students can attend other schools in Paris through the program - I have been told the most selective is Sciences Po, which is a year long program. The people at Reid Hall would oversee her Sorbonne work as well as reinterpret her Sorbonne semester end report into Columbia-ese so it could be added to her transcript. It was not just a case of her going to the Sorbonne, having everything done by them and then paying Columbia fees. </p>
<p>FWIW, she was disappointed in the academics at the Sorbonne but thought that the Reid Hall classes were very challenging. She stayed for the summer session taking classes exclusively at Reid Hall that were geared to graduate level students. She particularly enjoyed those. She became very close with her Reid Hall advisor and her host family. Overall she thought that the experience was very worthwhile...and not one that could be replicated by taking courses in the US.</p>
<p>Marite, to be clear, I wasn't looking for quid pro quo. Just looking for the same slowness to judgment when facts are incomplete that I think we all seek.</p>
<p>Yes, I was too quick to jump to conclusions. Mea culpa.</p>
<p>Elleneast:
I've looked up the fees for Oxford for international students. Unless I read wrong, the fees total about 9,000 pounds sterling or $18,000. A great deal less than tuition at a top American college.</p>
<p>Columbia is right to want to exercise quality control and not to accept credits from just about any university in the world. But we're not talking about a third-tier university in a third world country. We're talking about Oxford. Besides wanting to see the world, there is a very legitimate reason for American students to want to go to Oxford: in some areas, it is simply better. So thanks to Columbia's intransigence, the young man got a degree as good as Columbia's and at a lower cost.</p>
<p>Marite - Columbia College's tuition for 2007-2008 is $17,758.</p>
<p>All I am saying is that these students are not necessarily being taken to the cleaners (at least relatively). Ten years ago parents bragged of how much $$ they were saving when their children did a year abroad - the fees for international students to attend the major players overseas have been raised to make up for that....and not necessarily by their home schools.</p>
<p>Columbia College's tuition is (with room and board) more than $46,000 a year; pure tuition is $37,000+. I think you're very confused and/or looking at the wrong Columbia College.</p>
<p>ses - you are right according to the Columbia College web pages. My original link must have it broken down by semester but does not state that - quite deceiving....or at least confusing. My apologies to both you and Marite.</p>
<p>It is clear that at least one area of our household accounting for the past four years has been handled by my dear husband. :o</p>
<p>I'm no math whizz, either. No apologies needed.
I just looked up the tuition at S1's LAC ($36k for one year) and at the university he spent a semester abroad ($20k for one year). The tuition differential for one semester would thus be about $8k.</p>
<p>I'll be the first one to note that we are in the catbird seat on this one. The financial aid my d. receives is so generous that the amount her JYA program cost us (it cost the school significantly more than had she stayed behind) is, for lots of folks, laughable. For that, she came home totally fluent - writing, reading, and speaking - in her language of choice, got to do original research in libraries around the country there and set herself up for graduate school, had trips all around the country paid for, they gave her a stipend for lunch that was so generous she saved enough for a trip to Greece and Crete, visited neighboring countries and went to the opera, played in a local orchestra, and can make conversation about the kind of absolute minutia that is dear to my heart. (We both worship at the altar of the Goddess Minutia). </p>
<p>We are so grateful, and in a million years I never would have imagined we could have afforded anything like this. </p>
<p>But would we have ever have sprung for it full-freight? Well, I'll never have the opportunity to know. More likely, I would have told her to get a good knapsack and a sleeping bag. Worked for my wife!</p>
<p>It's too bad American colleges have found this way to make money, but I can't say I blame them. A generation ago, one of the benefits of students spending a year abroad was that they saved a great deal of money. They did set off with a backpack and found their own way, for the most part. Communication with parents wasn't anywhere near the daily exercise it is today. An older friend of mine with 4 bright children sent the oldest two to England because they couldn't afford to educate them here. Apparently they didn't have much to eat that year either, not so much a reflection on English cuisine as the family's stretched budget. </p>
<p>I don't think today's parents or students would accept this state of affairs. They expect everything to go smoothly, from housing arrangements to transfer of credits, and in the end have to pay for that. When we lived in another country, one of our neighbors (also American) was the resident advisor for his state university system's program at the local university and it was his full time job to keep students happy and on track. There were a few hold out colleges in this country that charged their students the rate at whatever foreign college they attended, but they all eventually fell in line and charged the home school tuition. Many justify it by having financial aid carry over to outside programs, but then you realize that at many top schools, the majority of students are not receiving financial aid. For every daughter mini has, there must be 4 or 5 paying full home tuition for the experience. If people don't like it, they can delay the experience until after graduation.</p>
<p>I think it's not just US colleges that use this as a way to make money - I suspect that most Oxford colleges, particularly the poorer ones (one of which I attend) use their JYA students as a source of income. It's not a coincidence that the poorer colleges have more JYA students than the richer ones. For example, the year I entered my college, there were around a 110 'regular' undergrad degree seeking students, and 30 JYA students. I couldn't believe what those guys paid for tuition. It was even double what International students pay, which in itself is at least 3 times more than what UK/EU students pay.</p>
<p>The point Mini makes about his D is a good one: students on financial aid do get to go on JYA without losing the financial aid. At least I hope that is the case at most colleges. At Harvard, students on finaid who want to participate in a summer program (including summer abroad programs) do not have to work as part of their finaid obligations.</p>
<p>D1 spent a semester in Africa, where her room and board costs were probably extremely low -she lived in a hut and ate only food that could be cooked w/out electricity, etc.<br>
We understood that by paying her full LAC cost directly to the college that someone was profitting greatly. I questioned the LAC on this...I was told that she was paying for her colleges cost of the credits earned. When I pushed about the huge descrepancy in the cost of the JYA program (where the total cost of attendance was published, and was to cost her college less than 1/2 of what we had to pay!) I was told the rest of the money left over provided for other kids to go who could not otherwise afford it. We get 0 financial aid, but I was told that FA students awards cover the costs of the semester exactly as they would in the US. Hmmmm. This has brought back up some rather harsh feelings I have had toward the LAC regarding the 22k we paid, and the 12k the program cost. Ugh.</p>
<p>
[quote]
When I pushed about the huge descrepancy in the cost of the JYA program (where the total cost of attendance was published, and was to cost her college less than 1/2 of what we had to pay!) I was told the rest of the money left over provided for other kids to go who could not otherwise afford it.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't see the logic of the explanation given by the college. If the students on finaid could not afford to go abroad, they would stay at their home college where they would continue to receive finaid. Sending them to study abroad would be cheaper for the college; so sending All students abroad benefits a college, regardless of how the monies saved from sending full fare students abroad are used.</p>
<p>"For every daughter mini has, there must be 4 or 5 paying full home tuition for the experience."</p>
<p>I doubt it. At least at my d's school, the majority of students going on these programs (which cost MORE than the home tuition per student to run) are receiving need-based aid. And I have no reason to believe that, at any college, the number of those going abroad who receive need-based aid is different than those on the home campus.</p>
<p>I am so glad that the study abroad "profit center" used by many colleges has been exposed. Specific costs and programs may vary, but in general, profit is being made at the expense of students' families.</p>
<p>Kudos to nikrod's LAC for at least making full disclosure that, "the total cost of attendance was published, and was to cost her college less than 1/2 of what we had to pay."</p>
<p>We were aware of the discrepancy between what colleges collect and what it actually costs to study abroad, and as a result declined to play into the game. Our D instead used her AP credits to take a leave of absence from her school for fall of her junior year and combined that with the previous summer to get herself a six-month paid teaching experience in China, where she taught management employees business English. Her exposure to the culture and the professional experience were far greater, we feel, than anything she would have gotten in a classroom, and she saved us lots of bucks. It is amazing to me that so many buy into the heavily pushed abroad programs without considering other options.</p>
<p>I really do believe that some of any given college's profits go to those in need of financial aid and/or to pay fees associated with maintaining their relationship with specific programs/institutions overseas AND to paying for the Study Abroad office's operating costs. Could all of this be paid for with LESS money? Sure.</p>
<p>But you really are paying for a college to ACCEPT THE CREDITS. You are paying for the privilege of going abroad. You are also paying so that others have the same privilege.</p>
<p>marite - I find it rather desipcable that you would deny fin aid kids the right to go abroad. According to your logic, because it is cheaper for the college to have 100% of the students pay full cost, no needy kids should be admitted.</p>
<p>The ability to pay should not be a determinent in whether or not one is able to have an oppurtunity. Some families are lucky enough to pay to go abroad, others are not. That is just how it is.</p>
<p>To give credit where it is due--my daughter back in 2002 attended a seven sisters college. She spent a junior year in South Africa, similar to nikrud's child. She went thru a third-party organization in England. The college (Mt. Holyoke) let her leave school for a year, pay only the fees to the South Africa University ( Durban and Fort Hare), and be readmitted the following year with full credits for time in Africa.
Even with my trip over to visit her, and her own transportation, we saved over 17k.</p>
<p>I did not realize how lucky our situation was.</p>
<p>It is to the benefit of a college if most students, whether on finaid or not, go abroad. </p>
<p>If tuition at the American college is $18k per semester, and the tuition at a foreign university is $10k, the LAC gains nearly $8k minus costs associated with running the study abroad program. These savings can be less if the American college runs the program abroad, as in the case of Reid Hall for Columbia, but many do not. </p>
<p>These savings hold whether the student is on full ride or pays full fare. In the case of the full fare student, the family pays the same amount even if the foreign university is cheaper; in the case of the full ride student, the college saves the difference between its own tuition and what the foreign institution charges.</p>
<p>So, if a student on finaid decides not to go abroad, the college has to cover the $18k and forgoes the savings. This is why I said that the explanation given by the college (that the full fare students are paying for the finaid students to study abroad) does not make sense. Unless it costs more for a college to send its students abroad (and I don't believe this is the case), it pays for the college to send as many of its students abroad regardless of their financial status.</p>
<p>And that's before we consider housing. At Dartmouth, it was made clear to us that one of the benefits of the study abroad program was precisely relieving the housing crunch. In other words, colleges are able to admit more students than they otherwise could since at any one time, there are some who are not in residence.</p>
<p>Finally, as a matter of principle: if indeed full fare students are helping cover the costs of those on finaid, it should be made clear at the outset. I am sure that many families would like to get some tax benefits from such a sizable, if, involuntary, charitable contribution.</p>