<p>Any view of “merit” that depends on SAT tests is sadly crabbed.</p>
<p>I think that Harvard, Yale, et al. ARE meritocracies. For the most part, and not perfectly – how could one be perfect when evaluating 17-year-olds? – but 95%+ of the students selected are selected based on superior merit in one or another dimension (which, yes, includes squash and crew), and often in more than one dimension.</p>
<p>If admission to Yale had been based solely on test scores 40 years ago, I would have been fine, but my wife would never have made the cut. We had virtually the same grades in college (which were very good – both summa cum laude, and both junior Phi Beta Kappa as juniors), and she has had by far the more distinguished career. She was a bigger person on campus, too – a do-er and leader. What logical meritocracy system would have ignored all the signs she showed in high school of being the kind of focused, achieving person she is in favor of a three-hour intelligence test?</p>
<p>I have to laugh a little at gibby’s claims for Stuyvesant football. It won a championship last night! . . . in the least competitive conference of the New York City public school athletic system. Stuyvesant’s high school enrollment is about 3,300 kids, and the school it beat has about 300. It’s a little grotesque they even let Stuyvesant play at that level. However, before, last night’s game, the 300-student school had a better record than Stuy. Columbia and Cornell could win championships, too, if they played against Bard, Hobart, Bennington, and Vassar.</p>
<p>I read an account (on CC I believe) from someone working Harvard’s admissions office saying that they actually kept track of Yale and Princeton legacy admits to Harvard vs. Harvard legacies and they said they ran just a few percentage points below Harvard’s. While environmental, cultural, etc factors probably account for a good portion of this, I have to believe that there is a fair amount of subconscious selection bias toward “prestige” schools going on. Most graduates of a top between 5 to 20 school could provide all the things you listed to their offspring and yet the admit rate for their kids at Harvard don’t begin to mirror Yale or Princeton’s success. In other words,“if your parents were good enough to get into Yale or Princeton…”.</p>
<p>Admissions in the same manner as Jury selection? There is definitely is a flip side to “attempt” to secure complete objectivity in the admissions process. I am surprised there has been no discussion about the Academic Index in this conversation, which of course has subjective factors/considerations that can be attributed to every element of.
As I had mentioned previously I believe Harvard does a remarkable job in the building of their classes. </p>
<p>As a Chinese male myself, I do not mind the strict quota for Asians. Think about it this way: do you want college to be 85% male and 15% female like MIT was a few decades ago (by pigeonhole principle there would either be a bunch of reverse harems or a bunch of lonely single guys)? What about a college that looks just like China + a few white people? Ehh… Most of us came here to escape from China, its pollution, and its communism (and for the most part, only the smartest could, hence the inflated academics of Chinese here and the apparent over-representation). Let’s not return to that.</p>
<p>However, it would be nice to hear an official word about schools like Harvard admitting that they have a stricter quota for Asian Americans and whatnot. Honestly, there is a noticeable difference between how your application is viewed if you’re an ORM versus if you’re a URM. I don’t mind it, but it would be nice if the difference in quota was acknowledged.</p>
<p>(btw I may be being kinda racist/sexist here - please note that I did not mean to be discriminatory, but simply just to make a point - please do not be offended)</p>
<p>@kirito69. I don’t know what your academic credentials/extracurricular achievements are and at what level…but, even as Chinese East Asian (as you claim)…it is rather presumptuous and very naive in thinking the way you do…and as to why these lawsuits exists…one does not need to be Asian to understand and empathize with what is going on…here and at the other institutions…</p>
<p>…you will only understand when you get shut out of H or S or Y or P or any combination thereof in this admissions cycle…</p>
<p>…you don’t sound racist/sexist…but, you sure do sound ignorant and really uninformed!</p>
<p>@Tiberium - I agree. I thought @kirito69 presented a very reasonable point of view. I’m interested in learning why @gravitas2 thinks kirito is “presumptuous”, “naive”, and “ignorant”.</p>
<p>Holding a different opinion isn’t a sign of ignorance.</p>
<p>kirito69’s post comes across as ignorant to me, too. First because it treats as established fact something that is virtually impossible, i.e., a “strict quota for Asians.” Second, it seems to ignore a long history of Harvard (and other universities) explaining why its goals include increasing the representation in its student body of certain historically “under-represented” minorities. Third, it takes for granted that everyone is subject to racial quotas of one type or another.</p>
It’s been pointed out several times on this thread that Asian-Americans are over-represented by roughly 300%, compared to their representation in the general population. I don’t think that’s true of any other group.</p>
<p>I am not saying that makes it right, or that quotas even exist. But if they do . . .</p>
<p>Sorry about my post earlier - it was rather… unfounded lol - I was kinda high when I wrote that post… oops</p>
<p>As for treating the “strict quota” as an established fact, I know that it is definitely not a fact, but in response to the article which treats it as such, I assumed basically what the article presented. Please do not take offense and note that I do understand that this is just a hypothesis and in no way something that is fact.</p>
<p>And yes, I will probably get shut out, and I do understand that if this “strict quota” does indeed exist, it makes getting into college very difficult for those who are subjected to that “strict quota.” Also, sorry about the extreme oversimplification and exaggeration - please don’t be offended - it was not meant to be a serious post, but more of a jesting one.</p>
<p>But I guess the gist if what I wrote is that if schools like HYPS based their admissions solely on standardized tests or whatnot, or even just merit, the outcome might not be as desirable as the status quo.</p>
<p>Anyways, why don’t we all go watch some anime 46 hours and 9 minutes until the next SAO episode lol (imo it’s getting kinda ehh but w/e)</p>
<p>@wasatch, Overrepresentation based on what standard? Who gets to set it? There is no such thing. All races should get in based on their own merit, not quotas. We won’t be able to compete as a country if we rely on inefficient quotas. Guess what we are doing now to get the STEM work done, get immigrants from Asia. We could develop all the talent we need right here, if we give preference to merit, not some arcane quotas.</p>
<p>I don’t like to get involved in these kinds of discussions because there seems to be good arguments for both sides. I will say that I heard from a friend a few years ago (after they just left their position as a very senior admissions officer at one of the acronym schools) that there are “target” percentages for various ethnic groups including Asians. The regional officers do not pay any attention to the target Asian percentage when they’re reading apps and making decisions but just try to admit the best candidates they can. After everything is said and done the class is then “shaped” to reflect what the original target ranges are. They said that, remarkably, very little shaping usually needs to be done because year after year the unshaped class is pretty close to what they’re looking for. </p>
<ol>
<li> Harvard is a private U and like Augusta National they can admit anyone they want for any reason they desire.</li>
<li> When a subset of the population is over-represented by 400%, and every other race is under-represented, it takes a lot of balls to complain they are not fairly represented in the university population.<br></li>
<li> Test scores are only “one” marker used by ADCOM’s in the selection process. Most top U’s seem to take pride in rejecting high test scores students who offer nothing else to the college community.</li>
<li> You need to take the student reported ethnic mix with a large grain of salt. Many students leave this blank, select two or more races, select the race that helps them, or lie. It excludes international students. You can safely add 50-100% to the reported Asian percentage at most top universities. </li>
</ol>
46 hours and 9 minutes until the next SAO episode lol (imo it’s getting kinda ehh but w/e)</p>