<p>sue, honey, you best get to the abbreviations thread or you are going to be lost in CC translation!</p>
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The parents were stunned, since the stats of these kids just weren't that impressive
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<p>I smell hooooooook.</p>
<p>The only hook (with the exception of the one who was a legacy) was the private school in NYC they were attending--which is a feeder school to the Ivy's, and I doubt Trinity is unusual in that regard in NYC-- at all. So, yeah, definitely a hook-- but then for those attending one of the fine private schools in NYC, getting into HYP would not be difficult (to answer the original question).</p>
<p>That's one reason I grow weary of reading posts on here from kids who live in NYC and attend one of these schools, whining about how very difficult it is for them to get into HYP. You'll never convince me of that. If they can't get in from one of these private schools, then they must be really lacking.</p>
<p>You don't understand the private school system.</p>
<p>Elite private high schools admit students with 95% scores and above. 50% + of their students get some sort of NM recognition. The top 10%, those with 99.9% scores and GPAs, have a shot at Ivies. The majority of the others, the whingers as you call them, would have the scores and the grades to get into Ivies--if they attended a non-elite school.</p>
<p>Just as a hook will lower the points needed to get into a top uni, an elite private school--one of the ones on Papa Chicken's Top 100 List--literally adds 100 SAT points and .50 GPA to the standards. It is much harder to get into an Ivy from those schools--unless the student has a great hook. They are hardly lacking.</p>
<p>However, tuition for K-6 has gotten so out of hand that some of the pressure for super academics is evaporating out of the private independent schools. There was a recent study which showed that a majority of the working moms with children in private schools were working physicians. You would think that thiswould correspond with a trend to super academics, but this study suggested that super busy parents don't have time for the agony of super-intense academics.</p>
<p>Like the super wealthy parents in these schools, the new parents care about education but.... really? They just want happy.</p>
<p>The next decades could get interesting for those high schools.</p>
<p>Cheers:</p>
<p>I don't really think so. The school is known, the GC is known. These are great help in admissions.</p>
<p>?? ^^^ Didn't understand that m.</p>
<p>Cheers:</p>
<p>I was responding to your post #43 before it got edited. I don't think private schools students from NYC are at a disadvantage. Anyone from the Mid-Atlantic region is at some disadvantage compared to someone from, say, the Mountain States or Hawaii. The majority of students at Harvard (and I'm pretty sure at Yale and Princeton )come from three areas: Mid-Atlantic (25.2%); New England, (17%); Pacific (15.5%). But within this context, someone from a feeder school with a GC with clout in admission offices will have a better chance than someone from Public School xyz somewhere in New York or New Jersey, all things being equal.</p>
<p>There's also an element that is missing. Private school parents have been competing since the kids were in daycare. By the time the kids hit 11th grade, they've been groomed to a fare thee well to compete for spots at HYP.</p>
<p>In HS we had about 15% of my graduating class of 633 students go to ivies and this was Lehman HS in the bronx. I have a good number of friends who went to them and I can say almost none of there parents graduated from College, if only a few even from HS.</p>
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At my kid's NYC public magnet, a lot of kids who tried out for orchestra were taking lessons at "pre-Julliard." The kids who ended up being "second chair"--don't know if folks actually use that term, but they weren't first chair--went to Harvard..and were first chair there. I am not exaggerating (sp?) The first chair went to Julliard. So here is this kid who wasn't first chair in high school...but was at Harvard.
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<p>This is a fairly common profile for Ivy League students (esp. Asians and esp. at Harvard) from NYC and environs, Westchester county, northern NJ. The academically oriented students in the high school program at Juilliard rarely have enough time to focus on music to the extent needed for "first chair", but the combination of second-tier at Juilliard plus first-tier academics at competitive high school is a good one for the admissions game. </p>
<p>I don't know how many of the Juilliard second-tiers continue performing once at college. It seems to be more of a college admissions formula than anything else.</p>
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You don't understand the private school system.
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<p>Sorry, cheers. You don't know me. I understand the private school system quite well. Been there; done that; lived it. You may be the one who doesn't understand how that "system" works-- at least in NYC. </p>
<p>Agree completely with marite's post #46 above, most especially,
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There's also an element that is missing. Private school parents have been competing since the kids were in daycare. By the time the kids hit 11th grade, they've been groomed to a fare thee well to compete for spots at HYP.
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<p>By the way, I'm sure PapaChicken probably has the stats (may have even posted them at some point) on how many kids go on to HYP out of many of the private schools in Manhattan.</p>
<p><a href="jack:">quote</a>
That's one reason I grow weary of reading posts on here from kids who live in NYC and attend one of these schools, whining about how very difficult it is for them to get into HYP. You'll never convince me of that. If they can't get in from one of these private schools, then they must be really lacking.
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<p>"Data on more than 45000 applications to three elite universities show that a high school's academic environment has a negative effect on college admission, controlling for individual students' scholastic ability. A given applicant's chances of being accepted are reduced if he or she comes from a high school with relatively more highly talented students ..."</p>
<p>That analysis does not necessarily refute the idea that the best NYC schools endow their students with big advantages; those schools are outliers in many ways, and the general pattern of the 45000 applications does not necessarily extend to the extremes.</p>
<p>siserune: My earlier comments were about private schools in Manhattan, and I stand by my statement that the students from private high schools there--on the level of Trinity, Dalton, Chapin, Brearley, Collegiate, and others send a large number of their graduates on to HYP. The students have a built-in advantage of coming from these schools--for many reasons-- which outweighs any disadvantage of competing with equally talented/smart peers.</p>
<p>I went to the trouble to look up only one-- Brearley-- and they happen to have a page that lists where their graduates went (or were accepted) from 2002-2006. The highest figures--easily-- are for Harvard, Yale, and Princeton.<br>
<a href="http://www.brearley.org/college.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.brearley.org/college.htm</a></p>
<p>That possibility was specifically mentioned in my posting, but it is not self-evident that the numbers support it. The study was not limited to public schools. Your argument is in effect that the uber-elite privates are a different category not well represented by the study. Maybe. It is a tug of war between the selectivity and internal competitiveness of the school, and its special resources. What convinces you that the latter factor wins out?</p>
<p>"I think the best "Hook" to HYP for a Metro NY kid is to get 1500 + SAT's (or today's equivalent ) and then just be yourself. Have the confidence to do what you want to do- be it working in a Day Camp, or a supermarket."</p>
<p>I couldn't agree more with the above quote from Post #22 by Marny1 !! It describes my DS & DD, both of whom are currently attending Yale, and they are not URM, legacy, developmental case, or recruited athletes, just BWRKs who are confident to BE themselves. Neither child had gone out of their way to do things JUST to impress the colleges. They did not participate in a gazillion activities just so that they could have a long resume, but the few interests they pursued, they did extremely well. They believed in presenting themselves exactly as they are on their college applications, with a somewhat "take-it-or-leave-it" attitude because they would have happily taken a full ride to our state's flagship university as well.</p>
<p>RODS1990: In connection to the topic of Manhattan private schools being a "hook," though, did they attend one? (Or did they attend any private school that typically sends kids to HYP?) You don't have to answer that, obviously. </p>
<p>I might also add that at least one of your kids (unless they were twins) might have received an added boost (read: "hook") by having a sibling already attending. I also suspect that both Yale and Princeton are somewhat easier (in relative terms, of course!) admits than Harvard.</p>
<p>You can never compare regular "unhooked" NYC HS kids to those attending private schools. As Jack said- these kids have a "built in advantage".</p>
<p>A good friend, whose d was a scholarship student at one of the 5 schools (post # 52) mentioned above by Jack (only at these schools could a kid with family income of only around $100,00 be given a "scholarship") definitely got a boost by her guidance counselor in getting into WUSTL. She was on the waitlist (big surprise). As one of her classmates was going to turn down the WUSTL offer, her guidance counselor called WUSTL and was able to secure the spot for her. Now of course my friends d was definitely deserving of the spot as she was waitlisted based on her own background and stats-- but most of us are not lucky enough to have guidance counselors with "so much pull" with the Admissions Office of WUSTL. For my friend- a simple phone call turned her waitlist status from WUSTL into an acceptance.</p>
<p>Rods- I am seeing the same thing on Long Island- from my fairly "unhooked" school district. (some districts- like Jericho or Manhasset- definitely seem to have a bit more clout with Admissions Office than others). The kid who tries to overreach and just does TOO much seems to be less successful in Ivy admissions than the kid who has the confidence and portrays the "take-it-or-leave it attitude". (Of course an SAT of 1500 for HYP or 1400 + for the other Ivies doesn't hurt either)</p>
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You can never compare regular "unhooked" NYC HS kids to those attending private schools. As Jack said- these kids have a "built in advantage".
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<p>They have built-in disadvantages as well, such as stronger competition within the school, and an openly stated discounting of their SAT scores by university admissions. Consider the 2002-2006 matriculation results linked above for Brearley. Despite academic selection for entrance, only half the graduates attend top 10 or Ivy schools, about a fourth reach HYP, and an eighth get into Harvard. This is not all that much of an advantage compared to the college results of the incoming top 10 percent of students at the public high schools in many wealthy communities (so about 30-50 students a year, of whom 20 or more might end up at that level of university, 4 or even 10+ at HYP).</p>
<p>If a student goes to a tony public high school and invests the same level of effort as needed to be in the top 25 percent at the top privates, they would have quite a chance of admission to top universities.</p>
<p>Whether private schools are advantageous is not a question whose answer is obvious without more information.</p>
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This is not all that much of an advantage compared to the college results of the incoming top 10 percent of students at the public high schools in many wealthy communities (so about 30-50 students a year, of whom 20 or more might end up at that level of university, 4 or even 10+ at HYP).
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<p>I tend to lump such schools and their students in the same category as Manhattan private schools. The GCs seem to know admission officers at various top colleges. In the Boston area, admission officers often send their kids to suburban public schools. Besides Marilee Jones at MIT, we met at least another MIT ad officer who had a child in Lexington High. An ad officer at another school knew the GC of one of my kids. I'd be surprised if the GCs at Scarsdale were not as savvy and connected as the GCs at Brearley.</p>
<p>Please give the rest of us the "disadvantage" that only 50 % of our graduating class gets accepted into a top 10 or Ivy or only a shocking 25 % get into HYP.
There is no sour grapes on my part. My kid is one of the very "lucky" unhooked LI kids who is attending an Ivy.
But from my very decent school district, we rarely have more than 5 % gaining admission to a "Top 10" school.<br>
Only 25 % admission to HYP?? Odds don't sound too bad to me!! </p>
<p>Maybe the expectations of those attending those private schools are a bit unrealistic. As the "joke" in my neighborhood used to be- If we lived in Nebraska, my kid coulda gotten into Harvard.</p>
<p>And I do agree with Marite that the GC's at Brearly- Scarsdale- and Great Neck are more familiar with the Admission staff of HYP than the GC's at Midwood- John Adams and Forest Hills!!</p>
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But from my very decent school district, we rarely have more than 5 % gaining admission to a "Top 10" school.
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<p>But that's 50 percent of the incoming students above the 90th percentile (never mind that who is 90th percentile changes from 9th to 12th grade, it is not so important for this point and if anything favors the public schools). </p>
<p>The top NYC privates get to select their students, and they do so carefully. Possibly it is bifurcated so that they have (let's say) a bottom 50 percent of purely wealthy students, while the top half of the school is highly academically selected and would easily be in the top 5 percent of any suburban public high school. Or maybe the entire class would be stellar by public high school standards. You have to ask how students of that caliber would do at a public school.</p>