NYT article: New York is the place to be

Parent Cafe
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<p>During the last several years, SUNY has done quite a lot to increase brand name recognition of both the SUNY system and the four major research university centers and a few of its smaller colleges namely, Purchase and FIT. These campaigns emphasize the over-arching common SUNY mission, and draw on the distinctive characteristic of each SUNY campus. In terms of brand name recognition, SUNY's focus is to carve out a distinctive niche within New York's higher education options in terms of the system's impact on the local economy, dedication to provide quality higher education to a broad group of students, as well as its role as a major contributor to high-tech research and development. Even without a single flagship U or a reknowned nation-wide sports program, the SUNY image is being revamped. Pretty soon we shouldn't be surprised not only if more and more people in and out of New York actually know the names of the different SUNY campuses but also know how to spell them.</p>

<p>Just take a look at the SUNY viewbook web-site.</p>

<p>"SUNY: The place to go, to go places in Life"</p>

<p><a href="http://www.suny.edu/Student/undergraduate.cfm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.suny.edu/Student/undergraduate.cfm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Mission statements, branding and advertising do not change the product.</p>

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<p>No, of course they don't and I don't believe that, in this case, anyone claimed that branding and advertising did anything beyond revamping the SUNY image and yes, boost name recognition. After all, that is part of the game these days among selective, competitive colleges. Mission statements are certainly not enough to change a college's image but the memorandum of understanding (MOU) that is behind the mission statement does represent real people who want to achieve real goals. In the case of SUNY, New Yorkers certainly want access, accountability, affordability, and action - and as the demand for even more selective, higher quality public education increases we will no doubt see real action and even real changes where it is needed. New York has the "bricks and mortar" and it certainly has the human capital necessary to pull it off. The SUNY system needs to attract a wider applicant pool to infuse passion and energy into the system that many educators describe in terms of dedication to academic excellence. Whether or not this means a shift in the internal missions of some of the individual units of the SUNY similar to that which has taken place in the CUNY system remains to be seen. The SUNY system is not a "one size fits all" outfit which has already been repeated in several posts made by different posters. It is also a higher ed. system that boasts institutions recognized to be best buys - and these institutions compare extremely well with other public flagship U's. The SUNY system schools continue to be fundamental engines of New York's economy.</p>

<p><a href="http://publications.budget.state.ny.us/fy0607littlebook/HigherEd/index.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://publications.budget.state.ny.us/fy0607littlebook/HigherEd/index.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>asteriskea, you seem to have more interest than the typical parent or alumnus/alumna. Do you have some special connection to the SUNY system?</p>

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<p>edad, That is a good question. I was wondering about this too.</p>

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<p>I don't know about asteriskea's connection to SUNY, but whatever it is, maybe she is frustrated with all the SUNY-bashing going on here.</p>

<p>Keep in mind that SUNY is the ONLY option for thousands of NY residents, who are probably very grateful that there is a halfway affordable option for them to get a college education. The vast majority of college bound kids simply do not have the funds to attend private colleges, and they do not have the stats or academic prowess to qualify for large merit or athletic scholarships. </p>

<p>As a California parent of an exceptionally bright and able kid who is completing his college education at Humboldt State U, I know how I would feel if there was a thread somewhere bashing the CSU system. It's unfair to hold a public education system geared to average-level college students to an elite private college; and it is simply naive to think that the states with prestigious flagship universities offer a particularly high quality of instruction to undergrads. </p>

<p>Of course everyone, everywhere would like to see public education improved, but it doesn't help when people in the state decide that the system is not good enough for them, and opt to go elsewhere. If anything, that is reinforcing the message that the state system is best relegated to providing career-oriented education to the types of students who are likely to remain in-state. No point investing a lot of money on high-level programs and faculty if there isn't a critical mass of students coming through the gates who are going to utilize those programs.</p>

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<p>asteriskea, on almost every post you mention Purchase College as something that SUNY is doing right but the reviews I've read in sites like studentsreview are none too favorable. Perhaps you are overrating it...</p>

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<p>Calmom, you appear to have done a pretty good job of bashing the SUNYs. Yes the SUNYs are affordable and they are geared to the average student, do not compare well with private schools in NY, and many acadmically motivated students want to go elsewhere and are unhappy if they can only afford to go to a SUNY.</p>

<p>None of that will change because if we speak highly of the SUNYs and do more branding and advertising. The schools need to be improved to attract good students. There is little reason for additional advertising and image building. There are already plenty of good students who attend because they have to. In addition to falling short in meeting the needs of academically oriented NY kids, I am not sure the SUNYs do a great job of meeting the needs of "average-level" or "career-oriented" kids. In my area of the State, the community colleges seem to do a much better job. At least the class sizes are more reasonable.</p>

<p>If you are not very happy with the flagship State U's in California, you would be a lot less happy with the SUNY choices.</p>

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<p>Geez- Boy am I glad that most SUNY students and SUNY grads have the maturity, strength and self confidence to have learned to make the best of their SUNY experience and have been able to come out of their tortured SUNY experience with an ounce of dignity. I guess no one told them that they are not worthy!
I am just tired of the assumption of some- who just constantly label the kids of NY who attend our State University as unmotivated, or only attend because the can't afford anything else.<br>
Based on the thoughts of some, I guess it's just an amazing feat in itself that any SUNY grad can feel good about themselves and become a productive member of society.<br>
This is when I am glad my daughter has the sense not to come to these boards. Not only have I constantly seen the bashing of SUNY and its students but generally I have seen a general disrespect towards the average student- and the programs and activities that "regular" folk like to partake in be it HS sports or other non-academic activities.<br>
The Power-elite wannabees live on College Confidential. I guess graduates of public education in NYS better accept their fate in life as obviously they will never be able to compete with those who went to private institutions in New York.<br>
Edad are you really saying good students do not go to SUNY or they do so as an absolute last resort?? If so we must have a lot of unhappy, lazy NY's including those who never forgave their parents for sending them to SUNY. I hope you do not have the authority to hire workers because it seems you would not even consider a SUNY graduate for employment based on your disdain towards the education they received. </p>

<p>I actually like the fact that there is not one flagship institution in NY. Not all kids want the same thing out of their college education. Maybe it is good that Binghamton is a bit more liberal arts, Buffalo and Stony Brook more big U with a solid science emphasis (one upstate and one downstate) and Albany with a slant towards public policy and law. And the SUNY colleges with all its different "specializations" and a good solid teaching program.
Thank goodness our kids embrace their individuality and enjoy the luxury of having a choice. I think we have too many people here who think the "one size fits all" university system is a good thing. And if you do not fit into the flagship school- then go elsewhere.</p>

<p>Silly me- I think it is a GOOD thing to offer a solid education to as many NY kids as we can. It benefits society as a whole and the people of New York. That is the role of public education. And if it does not meet YOUR needs, then you as an individual have to look elsewhere.</p>

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<p>First of all, let's get one thing clear - I do not have any special connection to SUNY. I also don't think I am showing undue interest in the condition of public higher ed. in my state. FWIW, I also started a thread and have posted quite a lot about higher ed. choices in New Jersey. Basically, Calmom got it right. I am frustrated at the SUNY bashing - I have heard it all too often, mostly from people who assume a great deal about the SUNY system or who are working on a type of "gag reflex" when it comes to SUNY. Frankly, I am not at all sure, edad, what you want the SUNY school system to be. I think, for the most part, your criticisms are worth responding to and open the door to debate - which is why I take the trouble to respond. As I have posted before, I like to shop at discount outlets and as a savvy New Yorker I like good quality deals. On the whole, the SUNY schools are a good deal - far from perfect (which I am getting tired of repeating) - but they fill a need that it does appear New Yorkers want. I also have extraordinarily bright kids and want nothing more than a quality public option for them. </p>

<p>I mention Purchase College a great deal because that is the branch of SUNY I know most about - over the years, I have had the pleasure to meet and get to know quite a few graduates, students and faculty - basically you have to live under a rock not to. Let me point out a few things about Purchase once again that tells a great deal about the changing scene in the higher ed. situation in New York. The college was created in the late 1960s to be one of the jewels in the SUNY system that provided unique access to its highly regarded and competitive liberal and fine arts program. (Remember, that at this time CUNY was strong and basically that was the idea for SUNY Purchase in terms of niche.) The college offered programs that were innovative and dynamic with a faculty to match. The burning question here ought to be why didn't this college attract the stellar students it was designed to atrract? This is not meant to be a loaded question, just an important one since the liberal arts program in particular is still highly regard today (and no, I am not overrating it). </p>

<p>Purchase College also houses a highly regarded and important cultural center in Westchester - one among many. Well, from what all of you are saying, it appears that New York and New Yorkers either do not want or do not need a stellar SUNY liberal arts college just because the college has not attracted the highest caliber students you all claim it should. Yet, the college has stayed faithful to a mission that includes a committment to broad access to education particularly to those students who simply can't afford high tuition and who most likely would never qualify for lavish financial aid at private institutions. These days, a college education is deemed to be a right and not a priviilege and to a large extent, this is a key to what is going on - and a lot of ths does have to do with the SUNY brand name and prestige. Many of the posters have repeated the same thing over and over again on this thread - there are just too many other stellar 4 year private (and even elite) colleges in New York with more resources than SUNY that can and do attract the type of stellar students you all want to see at SUNY's. I was particularly struck by the situation in Wisconsin. I have always held the UW at Madison in the highest regard. Well, it weathered a serious crisis, refurbished its admissions policy and image and people in Wisconsin are applauding - not booing. But then again, I forgot - we are dealing with New Yorkers and we are a tough crowd. Not too long ago, NYU was considered to be a last ditch, ultimate private safety and many Westchester locals talked about SUNY Purchase and Sarah Lawrence in the same breath. I don't think I have my head in the sand or have any illusions about public or private education. The SUNY schools cater primarily to local New Yorkers' needs and wants and respond to them. Today, things are changing and quickly. The SUNY schools are considered to be separate and basically autonomous from each other which means there is a defacto privatization going on. (Btw, do you SUNY alums give any money every year to your alma mater to make things any better?) Since I also started and posted a great deal on the "Admissions Revolution" thread, I realize full well that marketing hype is the last thing that SUNY needs or New Yorkers want. Yet, name brand recognition and advertising is needed in this instance because it will do a great deal to focus attention on the changes being made in each of the SUNY's, as well as to what direction they each envision for their niche in New York's higher ed. and what kind of students they want to attract. </p>

<p>The following article that appeared a June edition of the Chronicle of Higher Education on Stony Brook makes explicit reference to the problems related to the SUNY brand name and image problems - image problems that do not accurately reflect the current condition of many of the "units" that make up the SUNY system. Basically, all I want to point out is that New York does indeed have a good thing going on - and if it gets even better then we all win.</p>

<p><a href="http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?id=rfpj38sjlyht52f4qcsc2mc4w5jh7j0z%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?id=rfpj38sjlyht52f4qcsc2mc4w5jh7j0z&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>asteriskea --my comment, from the start, was that the very stellar students I went to high school with, who went to SUNY in the 1970s, are precisely the students you no longer find there. </p>

<p>I do not think the problem started with SUNY but with the world changing around it. My own kids are examples. I do not have the money to send them to private schools, but they have need-based aid to Brown and Vassar, respectively, such that it costs me LESS for them to attend those schools than to attend SUNY. In my generation need-based aid to these private schools was unavailable (or if available not known to my friends at the Bronx High School of Science, perhaps we were clueless?) --so de facto we all wound up at SUNY and CUNY. </p>

<p>SUNY has lost these top students to privates who, essentially, have bought them. Would anyone really pay more to attend Binghamton when they can pay less to attend Brown? Even with a scholarship and acceptance to Bing's honor college, Brown had a significantly lower pricetag for us. </p>

<p>I do not know if there is anything SUNY can do or should do to change this. Perhaps it is not worth it because, after all, these kids are being served quite well by privates and it costs NYS nothing at all. But the fact remains that the drain of these students has created a less competitive less qualified pool at SUNY than in the past. I think it is SUNY's loss, and I find that sad.</p>

<p>Why does this bother me? I like the idea of public education. I like the idea of having this option for all students in the state, including the top ones. I think these students should still have a place at SUNY's table --just because I still would like them to empower SUNY-- but for the most part they have left for reasons above.</p>

<p>This is my observation.</p>

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<p>marny1: I don't think I have seen anyone comment that kids who go to a SUNY are not worthy. In fact I and others have commented that they are worth more than what they get.</p>

<p>asteriskea: Let me explain some of what I would like to see from the SUNY system. First, I think one of the biggest problems has been the cutbacks on funding for faculty positions. The student faculty ratios are over 20 to 1 at most SUNYs with the result of large class sizes and limited personal attention. If the State cannot increase SUNY budgets, maybe it is time for some substantial increases in tuition. When room and board is $8-10k, maybe tuition should be more than half of that amount. Second, I think many of the SUNYs suffer due to extremely undesirable locations. It seems clear that this has occurred for political reasons and to help out the economies of some depressed upstate towns. We can't undo the past, but in the future there needs to be more thought on locations when new facilities and expansions are needed. I don't think there is any doubt that urban locations or access to cities is becoming more important. Witness the increased popularity of NYU and BU. Third, I think the academic standards of the SUNYs need to be increased. SUNYs have a reputation for being pretty easy even for average or below-average students. There seems to be a lot of concern about making education easy and retaining as many students as possible. I suspect the relatively low standards explains why many students view the SUNY experience as being in the next grade of high school.</p>

<p>After reading your comments on Purchase, I have a better understanding of your perspective. I guess I really do not understand why Purchase has been unable to attract more highly capable students. Certainly, the location should not be a problem. My D did tour Purchase looking at the music department. I missed that tour, but about all I heard was that it was not close to being a good choice even for a safety. Maybe the past reputation is self-fullfilling. Purchase appears too far down the food chain and few conservatory-level students would consider it. Again, I doubt that branding and advertising are going to make a difference. I would suspect that funding for faculty and increased standards might make a difference. Then again I have not seen Purchase and have heard mixed opinions about the facilities. </p>

<p>There is one other goal I think is important for the SUNY system. There really needs to be at least a couple of SUNYs which standout as being exceptional; i.e., flagship U's or LAC's. This would provide a suitable opportunity for the best students in the State, would help the reputation of the system overall and would help raise the standards of excellence that seems to be missing from the SUNY system. Several of us alums know that this was close to happening at Binghamton, but Bing seemed to have more interest in expansion and growth. Bing did get bigger, but the quality seemed to flounder along with the reputation and appeal.</p>

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<p>


No, edad, if you would actually take the time to READ my posts, you would have noticed that I mentioned that there are more kids from my d's California high school going to Purchase next year than any other single 4-year Ocollege or university anwhere, with the single exception of UC Santa Cruz. That's because Calif. has nothing like Purchase in terms of quality of program related to overall cost. </p>

<p>Also, did you notice the few dozen times that I mentioned that my son attends Humboldt State? And that both my kids turned down Berkeley after being accepted? </p>

<p>One thing that the SUNY system offers that California doesn't is a lot of medium/small residential colleges. Basically, a student in California who wants a LAC or mid-size college is out of luck as far as the UC system is concerned (except for UC Merced, which is small at the moment because they haven't really finished building it yet). </p>

<p>Our flagships -- Berkeley and UCLA -- are not friendly places for undergrads. Their most popular majors are extremely difficult to access due to the demand, and have insanely large classes at the introductory levels. In fact, for many it really is a better option to attend community college for 2 years and then transfer -- at least they can get smaller classes and more personal attention while fulfilling their gen ed requirements.</p>

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<p>Purchase does have some spectacular programs but with space for just a few ie 24 a year for dramatic writing, just a few for film majors, a few for creative writing etc. These are wonderful programs but I believe that in aggregate they serve no more than 400 students in the populous State of New York --and according to Calmom, even less, because so many students from her daughter's high school and elsewhere in California (and undoubtedly other states) are taking these few precious spots in the tiny Purchase arts programs as well. </p>

<p>Purchase also suffers because it's mission has been diluted by a dual mandate to serve a general population, too. Maybe I'm nuts but I'm betting there are enough students in NYS, the country and the world to fuel Purchase as a true 100% arts school, where it could truly be special. Instead, SUNY has left those programs tiny while serving every other major at Purchase so that along with the writers and filmmakers (all 100 of them) the school accommodates the 2.9 gpa/1000-SAT crowd that could not make it into Binghamton.</p>

<p>Finally by diluting Purchase SUNY has allowed it to become what is anathema to a college arts community --a de facto commuter school. There are so MANY commuters at Purchase it is almost empty on the weekends.</p>

<p>If Purchase has a mission it should stick to it --it is just like SUNY to take such a great idea and make it so narrow on one end and so broad on the other that they arrive at ..almost nothing.</p>

<p>The germ is still there and it can be fixed, but will it?</p>

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<p>Calmom- I absolutely agree with you. It took me a while to fully appreciate that SUNY had numerous "medium/small residential colleges". Though I gave my kid the opportunity to consider other OOS schools, she was never overwhelmed with any school she saw. That included GMU,Temple and Towson. I do believe she found more comfort in the closer knit community that many of the SUNY colleges have- be it New Paltz, Oneonta or Cortland. She also had the opportunity to go to SUNY Buffalo and Albany--but for her the smaller community and the sports management major at Cortland won her over.<br>
It's funny that alot of parents who might abhor the large class size and sterile feel of a large U are prefering to have a prestigious flagship school for the entire state even though that environment may not meet the needs of many of our students . Maybe we should recognize that we have a lot of kids with different preferences and interests. Maybe by having so many school choices, SUNY can appeal to all New Yorkers.
Cloverdale- shouldn't it be the mission of the State U to educate those 2.9 1000 SAT students. Isn't 2.9 about a B - student or 82 average?? I think those kids- "the real average student" have the right to expect that from their State U. And in my area, most of the kids had a bit higher stats to get into the 4 year college be it Purchase or New Paltz. A Solid B/ 1050 or more on the SAT was needed . But I know the 2.9/ 1000 SAT can be accommodated by the local community college in NYS.</p>

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<p>"SUNY can appeal to all New Yorkers." How about we say SUNY can appeal to many New Yorkers. Certainly there are opportunities for the 2.9 gpa, 1000 SAT students. Maybe there are also sports management, musical theater and forestry programs which are also very good and appealing to special students. How about the many thousands of kids with the 3.5-4.0 gpa's and 1300, 1400 or higher SAT's. Where are the SUNYs for the kids who are interested in academics, who want to be challenged, who want to be around other highly motivated kids and teachers, and who might even consider going on to graduate school. At one time, I thought college was for academics. Now, at least in the SUNY system, it seems to be more trade schools and mediocre academics that are supposed to appeal to all New Yorkers. Yuck.</p>

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<p>Actually, Delhi offers a lot of the "trade school" programs. I am told that they are quite good, btw. I know someone who took 2 of the one year certificate programs. It was extremely reasonably priced and both were very worthwhile programs. This person was very satisfied with what was offered.</p>

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<p>edad- I get the same response--YUCK!!</p>

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<p>Marny --I believe my point is that there should be a place at the table for everyone. That is not currently the case because students in the top 10 percent of GPA and SATs do not have a true place at SUNY --as they did in the past-- and do not form a significant community there. Also: I wish Purchase had lived up to its original mission. It could have been a contender and truly special instead of falling to a certain level of mediocrity outside of a few special programs. What happened there? </p>

<p>Because I am a SUNY alum I feel disappointed in what has become of these schools.</p>

<p>Even New Jersey now has The College of New Jersey and Rutgers Honors. UCONN has UCONN Honors for the excellent students in their respective states. Not everyone is going to get a scholarship to a private --there must be something in NYS for these kids that is REAL.</p>

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<p>The vast majority of kids at SUNY Bing, Stony Brook, Geneseo, and UB too are those "A" students with 1250-1400 SAT's. They are hard working kids with hopes and dreams and deserve our respect. And I am just really tired of this bashing that is going on. If you put all those like minded individuals together in a college community I am sure they will maintain the academic environment that some feel is sorely lacking on the SUNY campus.<br>
I am sorry if SUNY is not living up to your expectation and maybe it might not be the most appropriate choice for the top 8 % of our students, but it seems to meet the needs of the other 92% quite well.</p>