<p>A lot of SUNY schools are really on their way up. I just hope that Elliot Spitzer does a better job supporting them than Pataki did, and that the legislature helps out as well. The only thing keeping NY from having amazing state schools is its government.</p>
<p>There are not many A students with 1400 Sats at any SUNY --a few, but not a lot. There really DOES need to be a place for them too. That is all I am saying. You have agreed in your post that there is no place for them at SUNY now --the top 8% you say vs. my top 10%?-- then you are saying what I am saying. And I'm giving you the 2%.</p>
<p>These students have been disenfranchised.</p>
<p>I am saying there needs to be a place for them at SUNY AS WELL, as there was in the past. I am NOT saying others are unworthy of respect. I am saying that these top students ALSO deserve a place at the table. If saying this is bashing SUNY then call me a SUNY-basher: But you seem to be taking extreme offense at my simple request for inclusion.</p>
<p>It is possible to discriminate against the gifted, too.</p>
<p>In the past these students were at SUNY. They are not there now. So we just lop off the top eight percent and supply nothing for them?</p>
<p>Cloverdale, the reason that the top eschelon of students isn't at SUNY is that they get better offers at private colleges. You said as much yourself a few posts back. If they are financially needy, they get generous need based aid from to schools -- of which there are plenty in New York & neighboring states. If they don't qualify for need based aid, they can get merit aid from colleges that are certainly competitive with the SUNY's. </p>
<p>Those students are choosing to go elsewhere, and obviously if they make that choice, then the facult at the SUNY are going to do what they are paid to do, and tailor their instruction to the students who are there.</p>
<p>Whether or not that is significantly different in overall quality, I don't know. I know many, many adults who felt that they got a better quality education at community colleges here in California than they would have gotten at the university simply because their instructors were more focused on teaching. My guess is that for most courses, content is the same for the equivalent course whether one is at SUNY or NYU -- that is, the same material is going to be covered in the same courses. So there is going to be plenty of opportunity for the smart kids who choose SUNY... if they want to avail themselves of it.</p>
<p>There are approximately 50,000 New York State undergrad students with SATs over 1300. We have discussed how little opportunity the SUNYs provide these kids. Now, the mediocre opportunities are somehow their fault because many of the brighter kids want something better and some go to the private or OOS schools. Maybe a very few exceptional kids receive great financial offers. Most do not. Significant merit aid is often given only to the very few. Need based aid is not all that generous. That is especially true for many of us who live in the more expensive parts of NY. The cost of living is high, salaries are high. Many of us struggle to get by but qualify for little or no aid. Many families make very significant sacrifices so their kids have better options. And, no, I am not saying that those who are left behind and attend the SUNYs are somehow less worthy. There is definitely a big need for strong academics at the SUNYs. And what about the other 90%? Don't they deserve something more than large classes, poor faculty ratios, penal-level architecture, and schools in isolated, depressed areas of the State?</p>
<p>I certainly don't buy the argument that the quality of education does not matter. Yes, the course descriptions and the textbooks maybe the same, but there are very real differences in the level of instruction, the intellectual environment and the challenges and stimulation. After your D spends a year at Barnard, ask her if she feels that she could get the same level of opportunity at Humboldt or Purchase.</p>
<p>Cloverdale, I wouldn't put your posts in the category of "SUNY bashing" at all. I agree with much of what you have posted, but Calmom's post reinforces and reiterates important issues that have been made in previous posts. Part of the problem that we are grappling with is trying to come to terms with a public state higher education system that, over the years, has grown into an unweildy behemoth. There is a certain price to be paid for this growth in terms of academic quality and selectivity - and as far as I can tell, that is the next stage and challenge outlined in Mission II. This is not going to happen overnight and, edad, I heartily doubt that restructuring not only the SUNY system (in tems of "bricks and mortar" locations) but the great State of New York is part of the equation. </p>
<p>Calmom made mention of this point and I don't want to repeat it all again but, I do think that over the years many of the SUNY faculty do tailor courses offerings, and introduce curricula changes just to be more effective at teaching and to respond to the basic requirements, needs, and even wants, of the current student body. These changes do take place quite often and also include hiring new professors with different areas of expertise etc. - so in part we are criticizing these institutions for doing what they are supposed to be doing - teaching and communicating ideas and creating an educated work force (after all, the basic meaning of education is "to draw out"). Remember, SUNY's mission is based on "broad access". Now I do believe there should be no compromise on academic quality and for the most part there are enough resources and faculty to provide stimulating and rigorous academics. Of course, we do want to see SUNY attract the best and brightest faculty as well as students. So what's the remedy? Obviously money and government support. But also there has to be a change in mentality - for goodness sakes, most of the faculty that are now working (and many also conducting research) at many of these colleges, Purchase included, are probably sitting around aching for bright students to walk into their classrooms to learn and study what they can teach. If applicant pools get larger and stronger then the student body at some of these institutions will benefit by a continuation of or, if the shoe fits, a return to a higher level of academics. I say some of these institutions because, I repeat, SUNY is not and cannot be a "one size fits all" outfit. It serves New York and New Yorkers and sorry, as other posters such as Calmom and Cloverdale and Marny (and where is Weenie?) and I have said before in many different ways, it covers a wide spectrum of needs both upstate and downstate (just a little nod here to the original OP topic). I don't think this is "disenfrachising" the best and brightest. On this topic, I found the following interesting article (I was thinking of posting it on the "Admissions Revolution" thread but will do so here because of a specific mention of public universities' mission, honors programs, and the broader concept of 'marketing" or targeting student applicants - however one wants to put it.)</p>
<p>
[quote]
After your D spends a year at Barnard, ask her if she feels that she could get the same level of opportunity at Humboldt or Purchase.
[/quote]
I will feel very happy if my daughter does as well in term of taking advantage of the opportunities before her as my son seems to be doing right now at Humboldt. From my son's course list, I am not worried that he will be under-challenged -- it sounds like he will be very busy and he is very enthused about some of his courses, already wanting to buy his books and get a head start.</p>
<p>Think back- think back to your own HS graduating class. The very few who had a bit more money than the rest of us didn't go to SUNY back in the 1970's so do not expect their kids to go to Suny now. The "nouveu<br>
"rich kids" went to Syracuse-Boston-Miami and a few other places. Kids from the rich part of Brooklyn--Houses on Bedford Avenue-Manhattan Beach etc. didn't exactly fill the halls of ivy at SUNY either. People who have or seek money-power and status tend to want to be around other people who are looking for the same thing. So in this generation- when so many more of us have a bit more money than our parents, do you really think they are going to send their kids to a public U??<br>
Snobbery and elitism is alive and well today. Some judge people by the car they drive, neighborhood they live in, and what summer camps their kids go to. I do not care how good you can make SUNY- even if it replicated Berkley there is always going to be a disdain for public education amongst a certain segment of the population and you will never convince them to go to a public U. Is it right? Is it fair? Of course not- but people can be petty, stupid and judgemental.<br>
Cloverdale- you're lucky. You kids rose to the top (1500 SAT top 3%) The top 3% will be recognized. I do not think your kid would have turned down Brown for even UVA. I want to be concerned about the vast majority of kids and give them an inclusive atmosphere to learn and grow. If we cannot meet the needs of the very top, so be it, I doubt that too many would have availed themselves to SUNY anyway. The very top and rich never went to SUNY. Just us smart poor working class shlubs did!!
And certain things never change- So the kid who got a 1300 SAT- Could have gone to Boston-Syracuse or Bing. I am not convinced that schools like Boston or Syracuse have anymore to offer academically than SUNY Bing except for certain programs like Communications and a few others. It's not the academics that drive the decision, it's the money and prestige that go along with it!! SUNY university centers are filled with "A" students with 1300 SAT's. Isn't it the caliber of the students that is going to drive the academics?? There are many smaller schools who will gladly take the 1300 SAT student and does not have the same resources or academic reputation as SUNY. I do not see the same scorn directed towards these kids or institutions (yeah I know its SUNY its our tax money) as I do towards SUNY kids. I do not see the same nasty comments made about a sports management program at Rice or U Mich (yes- they too have that major too) or the School of Forrestry/Environmental Science that they have at Duke. I have just seen stinging comments about the mediocre and trade school environment when it was directed towards SUNY its kids and its programs. Would you characterize trade school environment towards kids at Duke or Rice who may be studying sports management or forestry too?? I certainly hope not. But SUNY kids seem to be fodder around here.<br>
And just a bit of NY History. It seems some feel that the SUNY colleges were designated in smalltown remote places for political reasons. Well maybe if we go back to the politics of 1860, we may find that to be true- but it has little to do with the formation of SUNY in 1948. Most of the original SUNY colleges were well established Normal schools (teachers colleges) . Cortland was founded in 1868 (I got the brochure in front of me) I am sure Oswego, Oneonta, Albany were all founded about the same time. It seemed a logical and efficient way to launch a State University system if it incorporated existing colleges. You also have to remember CUNY was well established prior to SUNY. Therefore their was probably little need to have a SUNY outpost in NYC, though we do have FIT and Maritime. I will not defend Bing- I didn't like the campus either. From my district- U Buff and Albany are way more popular as the Bing campus might strike some as a bit depressing. But at least we give our kids the choice to choose. Would you really want to make SUNY Bing or Geneseo our flagship U?? I think even if we brought those schools up to the level of UVA or Mich, more kids would decide to go elsewhere. Alot of NY kids can't tolerate the small town atmosphere of Geneseo or Bing. This are big city kids used to subways-Yankee stadium and Roosevelt Field. Let them have a choice.
There are some who just have issues with SUNY and they will not be changing their mind. My attitude is if we can meet the needs of the vast majority of NY state kids, we done good. Maybe Elliott Spitzer can take us to the next level as Dima suggested.<br>
Remember to vote in November. (see the Oswego Poli Sci major lives on!!)</p>
<p>Marny, LOL! I happen to agree with a lot of your post. Many large privates (ie: SU/BU), IMO, are not any better than good state school (which probably would include Bing).</p>
<p>Just wanted to add that Boston, however, has a lot going for it. There is plenty to do in the city.</p>
<p>marny1: </p>
<p>You seem especially concerned about social status. You also seem to take personal offense when any comments are made about the value of improving the SUNYs. I have not intended to offend you or your kids. I also do not have anything against sports medicine, teacher education, trade schools or any of the other forms of practical, career-oriented education. I do believe that the SUNY system needs to improve academics.</p>
<p>You also seem to confuse wealthy and smart kids. I am sure there are wealthy families and kids who would prefer some higher status private schools. There are also plenty of very smart, motivated kids who are not snobs and are not wealthy. I am concerned about this latter group. There needs to be a place in the SUNY system for this group. In addition, I believe some strong academically oriented opportunities would help the entire system.</p>
<p>Thanks for your input on the SUNY locations. I am not a native New Yorker and assumed that politics was responsible. In any case, it seems clear that the SUNY locations are a problem.</p>
<p>I am not concerned about social status- but I am aware that it can affect one's choices in life including what school you go to.<br>
We may all be able to agree by now, that the best and brightest potential SUNY students, may be getting merit aid which allows them to attend top schools. Cloverdale's kids are case in point.
What has troubled me about this thread, is that some seem to think the decline in SUNY was based on the lowering of its standards and some posters treated today's SUNY students in a disrespectful way which seemed to blame them for SUNY's decline . This may have been unintentional- but it sure sounded meanspirited to me.
My point is that merit money talks and the best students walk away from SUNY. It's tough to compete with merit/scholarship money from Vassar or Brown.<br>
Those options did not exist for students in the 1970"s- therefore the top students from 30 years ago did go to SUNY as they had no other financial option. As our kids have other options, those who are offered the opportunity to attend a top U on scholarship, will take advantage of it- so please do not denigrate the current SUNY student or think less of their academic abilities. It is the availability of merit aid, and the increase in family income that has striped SUNY of its best and brightest.
And be realistic- is there really much SUNY could do to keep the very best kids away from the top 50 schools in the country?? Be it status, prestige or whatever, most are going to opt to go to a top 50 U when having the financial opportunity to do so.<br>
I have spent enough time on this thread- I am so outta here!!</p>
<p>"The flattening of the world is moving ahead apace, and nothing is going to stop it. What can happen is a decline in our standard of living if more Americans are not empowered and educated to participate in a world where all the knowledge centers are being connection. We have without our society all the ingredients for American individuals to thrive in such a world, but if we squander these ingredients, we will stagnate."(Thomas Friedman, 2005)</p>
<p>"We have entered an era in which educated people, the knowledge they produce, and the innovation and entrepreneurial skills they possess have become the keys to economic prosperity, public health, social well-being, and national security. Moreover education has also become a key determinant of ones personal standard of living and quality of life. In the knowledge economy, it has become the responsibility of democratic societies to provide all of their citizens with the educational and training opportunities they need, throughout their lives, whenever, wherever, and however they need it, at high quality and at affordable prices."</p>
<p><a href="http://milproj.ummu.umich.edu/publications/higher_ed_issues/index.html%5B/url%5D">http://milproj.ummu.umich.edu/publications/higher_ed_issues/index.html</a> </p>
<p>Marny, I certainly hope that you did not take my last post in the wrong way because I have the utmost respect for current and past SUNY students and especially for what the SUNY system stands for - what it has accomplished and does accomplish. The caliber of the student applicant pool does indeed drive academics. Part of the problem here is that we are talking about 64 units in a statewide public system in a very large state. The SUNY system serves the whole state. (Btw, I find it hard to believe that a SUNY alum doesn't know anything about the past history of SUNY and how most of the colleges were former teaching colleges. What happened to all of those earlier posts moaning over the "rise and fall" of Harpur?) It does occur to me that some folks are looking at SUNY as if it were some kind of parallel to the rise and fall of the Roman Empire - as if it is following a cycle from robust health to utter decay and decadence. Well, I don't buy that for a millisecond.</p>
<p>I don't believe in the concept of a "dream school" whether private or public either - whether large research universities or smaller LACs. I am constantly amazed just how much inconvenience and compromise in quality people will put up with just because they have bought into the idea of "prestige" - Vassar is a prime example and it, too, has had its ups and downs and has had to find a new niche for itself in the context of New York higher ed. options. No one is complaining about that or even thinks it is wrong. (Thinking about the late sixties and early seventies - Vasaar was thrown in a tizzy over what kind of curriculum to keep or jettison, how to maintain its presitge and attract students at a time when most of the Seven Sisters decided to go co-ed. Any one out there remember when the possibility of Vasaar merging with Yale was on the table?) I do believe that there is a social dynamic at work here and, as I said before, it has to lot do with mind set and attitude- as Marny wrote, most people equate prestige with the best. Nothing really wrong with that - it is there (like Mount Everest) and is a factor that cannot be ignored. </p>
<p>So, there is a prevailing attitude that SUNY simply does not attract the "best" and caters to a lower echelon of students. Well, just saying this is like walking in a mine field. "SUNY" can attract the best and already does attract great students, as Marny points out. But now, in 2006, it is just plain wrong to judge the SUNY system as a whole and condemn it as mediocre - because the units are autonomous - and each one has to be judged on its own merits, mission, and yes, even problems. We already do have exelcellent SUNY 4-year colleges at Geneseo, Plattsburgh, New Platz, Purchase, Cortland and other locations throughout the state. At the same time, the role of community colleges and "vocational" schools can't be minimized either - since a great majority of New York State high school graduates need and want those institutions. Oh, btw, these days vocational training school programs are known as centers for Career Development and most of these programs are noted for academic excellence - judged by new standards set by the New York State Regents Board.</p>
<p>Edad- I think it is quite obvious from your posts that you are not a native New Yorker. Often, your criticisms pose important questions but, and this is a big but, increasingly, you come across as if you are caught in a some kind of self-contained time warp loop. I don't detect any sensitivity about what public higher education in the United States is supposed to be and who the public education system is supposed to serve. The issues connected to academic quality and internal fiscal health of New York's public higher ed. system is not just political; it also has to do with demographics and the State fisc (money). Part of SUNY's mission these days is to "meet the needs of both traditional and non-traditional students, and to address local, regional and state needs and goals." This takes into account the entire State's high school population, shifts in the economy and, because the concept of education and public service has changed since the 1970s - it also takes into account the result on the workforce and projected shortages in key labor areas. These needs are diverse and have to mesh with all the other private higher education options available. These factors do have a direct impact on what the SUNY system is today and what it will be in the future. What it will be in ther future depends on mind set and a greater understanding of the higher ed. public system in New York so that, as the demand for quality public higher education increases more and more people recognize it as the viable option it is - both upstate and downstate. Bottom line is we are in 2006 and not only is the pace of change and expectations different - there is no room for looking back to a golden age of public and private higher ed. that never really existed.</p>
<p>Marny:
[quote]
My point is that merit money talks and the best students walk away from SUNY.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>How do you think UC Berkeley or LA or Univ Michigan fill their halls?</p>
<p>Asteriskea:
I think edad's comments as an out-of-stater and an alumnus are particularly pertinent -- and I am not saying this just because I agree with him (except about upstate stinking ;) ), but because part of the problem with SUNY is that it simply does not compete on a national scale.</p>
<p>Sorry if I have little understanding or concern about the history of Harpur College or the SUNY system. I do know that 70% of the population of NYS lives downstate and more than 70% of the university centers and 4-year colleges are located upstate. I think that most SUNY locations are very unattractive and negatively impact the popularity and image of the system. I am sure I tend to judge all of the upstate facilities by my experience at Binghamton. I attended Bing in the late 60's. I can't think of anything positive to say about the location or the climate. The area was even more depressed than today. One of the major employers had been Endicott-Johnson shoes and they had closed. Few students ever left campus. If you had a car you could drive to the bars, but you needed to be careful since relationships with the townies were not good. I am not sure I view Bing in the late 60's as some sort of golden age. It was indeed a warped place. The was very little diversity and a conspicuous absense of excitement and spirit. There were a lot of very bright and very determined students. I can still remember Saturday afternoons and evenings. The administration tried to liven up the atmosphere by rolling in kegs of free beer. They would be largely untouched; however, the library would be so full of students that you had to hunt for a good place to study.</p>
<p>In addition to undesirable locations, I do also think SUNY suffers from a lack of excellence. I have doubts about how well the SUNYs perform in meeting the needs of the majority, but I really believe that SUNY has not met the needs of the top 10%. I don't buy the idea that private schools are bribing the students with large amounts of aid. I see instead many families who get some aid but need to make large sacrifices and get second mortgages in order to pay for better options to the SUNYs. I also see problems with kids in the 70-90% range. Many of these kids are not going to be accepted at Bing or Geneseo. They are stuck considering choices which are a lot more average. In many regards, I think the SUNY system is like our public high schools. They are geared to the average students and in some cases the below average students; i.e., no child left behind. I agree education is more important than ever. Just going through the motions and getting a degree is not sufficient. It is time to raise the standards and create some true excellence in the SUNY system. The demand and needs are there.</p>
<p>I also think it is past time to improve the 20+ to 1 student to faculty ratio. That will make an improvement for all students at all levels. I suspect the only way to raise the funds is to increase tuition. SUNY tuition is too much of a good bargain. And, no, I would not want to see the SUNYs too expensive for lower income families. Some of the additional funds could go to improving need-based aid.</p>
<p>edad:
It is good to hear your description of Bing in the late 60's. I graduated in 1979 and your description fits it to a "tee." I thought I had a warped memory, but evidently I don't (well, not about that anyway).</p>
<p>I just can't help myself- Edad- I spent alot of week-ends at Harpur (yeah- that was what the NY kids called it) in the late 1960's. Lots of my Brooklyn friends went there and it was an easy trip from Oswego-
You know the reason why they didn't drink the beer?? Because alot of them were getting stoned in their rooms and dropping LSD and mescaline. Then they went to study.
Selective memory is a wonderful thing!!</p>
<pre><code> Now I am REALLY outta here--I mean it this time.
Marny
</code></pre>
<p>Sorry, I did not know anyone at Harpur who used LSD or mesc. Even pot smoking was very moderate by today's standards. I wasn't one of the dedicated students. Maybe my memory is selective but I remember that there was at least one international student at Bing. I spent all Saturday afternoon drinking free beer in one of the dorms with a student from Australia. He did not disappoint my image of the Aussies. I remember we had very little company until the library closed and even then I doubt more than 50 students dropped in. I remember when the snack bar started to sell beer and pizza. There was some minor interest for the first few days. I remember taking an embryology course that attracted a lot of premeds. Very competitive and cutthroat; I switched majors to chemistry. I remember my roommate and I trying to find something to do on a Saturday night. Maybe all the students were in their rooms doing LSD but I remember the campus being as dull and quiet as usual. My roommate had a box of cherry bombs and a slingshot. I remember shooting cherry bombs over the dorms and watching the campus cops. We stopped when several State police cars showed up. I remember one winter when the biggest excitement on campus was the fire that burned all winter in the coal pile for the heating plant. I remember having no place to go except for dormrooms for the college equivalent of dating. I remember sleeping under picnic tables with several other couples as a alternative to staying in the dorms. I believe there was some pot involved that night. I can only imagine what Oswego was like if you went to Binghamton for fun.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Sorry, I did not know anyone at Harpur who used LSD or mesc.
[/quote]
That's FOR SURE. </p>
<p>
[quote]
Very competitive and cutthroat...I remember my roommate and I trying to find something to do on a Saturday night.
[/quote]
We definitely went to the same school.</p>
<p>marny:
Could you be wrong about the school you spent so many wild weekends at? Binghamton is at least 2 hours from Oswego. Not an easy trip - especially in the winter.</p>
<p>Weenie- Oswego near Syracuse- Route 81 direct link from Syracuse to Bing. Not a bad trip at all.
I am not going to get into an upstate/downstate civil war but I think that may have been a factor in edad's and weenie's discomfort with Bing- (Weenie didn't you mention something about too many NY kids and lack of diversity??)and my going to Bing on week-ends as Oswego had mostly upstate kids and I missed my NYC people.<br>
BIG GENERALIZATION from the "60's- Upstate kids went to bars and drank. Downstate kids did drugs. Lots of culture clashes upstate/downstate. Whole 'nother topic- Not going there at all!!
But I must say, being an RA at Oswego, there was a fair amount of drugs from upstate kids too- but heaven forbid I compare the student population of Oswego to Bing in the 1960's. Outta here!!</p>
<p>Also- someone from upstate knows how well the roads are cleared in the snow. Route 81 was a breeze. The only thing that closed Oswego down was the wind. It was NEVER the snow.</p>
<p>At the time, I was an OOS transfer student. I didn't know anything about upstate versus downstate. I know I had friends from both areas and I don't remember any clashes. I do remember we all tried to avoid the townies, but that was easy since only a very few of us had cars. I don't think there was much of anything within a couple of miles of campus. There was a Holiday Inn across the street and I think a liquor store and small strip mall were just East of campus. Now that I think about it, lots of details are coming back. How could I forget the big Saturday night entertainment of ad libs while watching movies on TV with the sound turned down.</p>