NYT: Demoting Advanced Placement

Parents Forum
1

<p>Article focuses on Scarsdale's and Fieldston's decision to eliminate APs.

[quote]
After scuttling AP, Fieldston found that its students were still admitted to top colleges. Scarsdale probably faces little risk as well. Admission officers know the school well and know that the "accelerated" classes that would replace AP under the faculty proposal, which would need the informal blessings of the Scarsdale school board, will be as demanding, said Scarsdale's principal, John Klemme.</p>

<p>Just to be safe, 100 colleges were informed of what Scarsdale is proposing and 98 said there would be no problem.</p>

<p>Schools without Scarsdale's reputation may find it harder to convince admissions officers that they offer challenging courses unless those courses carry the AP seal of approval.</p>

<p>Perhaps an experimental interlude may be needed so that colleges get accustomed to more painstakingly scrutinizing tough courses that do not carry the AP label. And perhaps, most schools, even Scarsdale, should offer some AP courses to allow those students who want to start taking electives in history or science as soon as they reach campus to do so. What shouldn't happen is a blking up on AP courses merely to impress admissions officers.

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<p>I wonder how many students in those places take, or will take, AP tests on their own? Some kids who are going to be admitted anyway, AP or no AP, still like to take AP tests for placement or for advanced standing. </p>

<p>Oh, yeah, and it's not like a lot of colleges are going to willy-nilly reject kids who are likely to be from high-asset families who can pay a significant chunk of full tuition. The same reasoning as to admission probabilities might not apply elsewhere.</p>

3

<p>I was under the impression that Scarsdale already had in place accelerated AP alternative courses and that the majority of students who took those also took AP tests. I know that BU Academy does not offer APs as juniors and seniors are encouraged to take classes at BU, but many of them take AP tests.</p>

<p>Still, for seniors, the AP tests will not be helpful. However the accelerated designation of their transcript will matter to admission committees. And Scarsdale and Fieldston being well know to adcoms at top colleges, it won't hurt. Podunk High might not fare so well.</p>

<p>Another interesting tidbit from the article, which reinforces my reservations about the AP program: math & science teachers are much happier with APs than teachers of English and history.</p>

4

<p>The prestigious Quaker schools here have never had AP classes, and it has never hurt them (that anyone can tell), either. The faculty and school committees were never willing to cede curriculum authority to anyone.</p>

<p>I am really of two minds about this. Obviously, it's not that much of a risk for Scarsdale, or Andover, or Germantown Friends, or Stuyvesant to go their own way, since they are well known and they replenish their reputations continuously. But the have-nots -- or, more precisely, the arrivistes -- are the ones who need some national standard to compete. The spanking new suburban school districts with no history and 1,000 ambitious students of middle-class parents, the charter schools in bombed-out urban districts, and the Catholic schools that suddenly got ambition: they use AP courses or IB to signal their seriousness, to their communities and to college admissions committees. If they had to compete with the traditional feeders by getting admissions officers to respect their idiosyncratic curricula, they would be waiting 20 years.</p>

5

<p>Taking AP test give you more than a good position in the admission process, for many students, it’s also a way to earn college credits before the freshman year at a lower cost than regular college classes. My S took advantage of that since the engineering school he’s attending, gave him credits for all the 5 scores, earning that way 40 credits toward his major.</p>

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<p>Historically, Andover was actually one of the reasons for the origin of the AP program, as that school notes in its materials for prospective students. Back in the 1950s, as Andover students began attending schools other than Yale, they discovered their high school courses in chemistry or French (those were the first two AP subjects) well prepared them for "college-level" work at a lot of colleges.</p>

7

<p>JHS
I can't agree more. My S's school is not well-known to colleges. He was first accepted into his college, but they and similar college accepted 3 kids the following year. If it wasn't for APs, national contests, etc., it would be even harder to be admitted. Actually, S studied on his own for several AP exams. On the other hand, AP classes raise GPA while the college classes do not. When a student takes advanced math & science classes, Latin, etc., at local college, I don't think his class rank whould fall way below the HS student taking AP pscych</p>

8

<p>I want to make clear, though, as I have in the past, that I generally dislike the AP curriculum, at least in the humanities. The AP system serves a useful social purpose, but I wish it did a better job. It makes me quite sad that what seem to me to be unimaginative (if content-rich) high school courses are considered "college-level". And while I respect the economic value to kids of getting college degrees without paying four years of tuition, I am happy that I don't have to ask my children to forgo first-rate college courses because they took a third-rate high-school class.</p>

9

<p>I wasn't aware of the Scarsdale situation until this thread but I can infer what it was about. </p>

<p>Anyway, when my kids were in high school, here at our rural public school, hardly any courses had an AP designation. Pretty much only Calculus and Physics did, that's it. The most demanding courses were labeled Honors. By the way, since they both graduated, the school has labeled several classes they used to be in (in the Humanities) as AP now. My kids took the most rigorous curriculum available (and then some....some indep. studies, acceleration, and long distance), and so their GC was able to state that. Colleges look at a student in the context of his/her own school, and so they were not penalized for not taking any APs beyond Calculus and Physics. </p>

<p>However, as others are discussing, most of the elite colleges (where rigor of curriculum matters even more), have never heard of our rural public school. They would not know that my kids' Honors classes were indeed very challenging. In fact, after years of reading CC, and becoming aware of experiences of others around the country, I actually think my kids' Honors classes were in many ways, almost better prep for college courses. They did not do all the memorization that others refer to with regard to certain AP classes. The courses did not teach to the test. Rather, there was a lot of learning using secondary sources (not focused as much on a text book), and a LOT of analytical writing. Sciences were lab and process oriented. They had a LOT of homework. But the kinds of work was similar to what you really do DO in college classes. No, they didn't get college credit for these, but none of us cared about that. AP credit is handy for appropriate placement in a language or math, though. My D was able to use her AP with regard to math at her college. She took up through French 6 in HS but none was labeled AP, but was able to use both her SAT2 score and a placement test at college to be appropriately accelerated in French classes (which were only taken out of choice and interest, as she has an open curriculum at Brown). I suppose if D2 had AP credits, it could have helped eliminate some liberal arts distribution requirements for her at NYU/Tisch, but I'd rather her take the college classes anyway. </p>

<p>So, while I agree that those from Podunk HS, such as ours, have a harder time with adcoms truly knowing the rigor of their curriculum without the AP designation, I still think a lot of our Honors courses were almost a better learning situation than some AP oriented classes I have heard about. Still, colleges say they will evaluate students in terms of their own high schools and determine if they took the most demanding curriculum available. Kids from places like here still do get into top schools. I suppose the newly labeled AP classes might make kids from our HS look better on paper. Who knows. It seems like they had to do it because so many schools in the country offer AP this and that, and our school didn't, even though the rigor of the top classes at our HS is very challenging and demanding. My kids felt well prepared for college, which is what it is all about.</p>

10

<p>"the Catholic schools that suddenly got ambition: they use AP courses or IB to signal their seriousness, to their communities and to college admissions committees."</p>

<p>That may be true for some, but the opposite phenomenom also occurs at many catholic high schools and other schools. Many schools are opting to abandon the AP program in favor of a more integrated curriculum and harder honor classes, or a expanded system of dual-credit courses. One school in our area that dropped the AP in favor of the dual credit courses has seen a real explosion in its success at the Ivies in the past two years. </p>

<p>And for the record, while Andover was indeed one of a couple of high schools that helped design the AP programs, it is a fact that the explosion of APs courses, and the adoption of the new fad represented by the IB program mostly occurs at truly mediocre high schools. The image of schools that barely crack 900 on the old SAT but offer 30-35 AP classes should raise many eyebrows, and force the AP and IB administrators to review and reevaluate their minimum levels of quality controls.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Trevor Packer, executive director of the College Board’s A.P. program, said students need only answer only a quarter of questions right in the multiple-choice section to earn a 5 score.

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<p>I am quite surprised by this little gem. I wish my daughter's AP US teacher had known that. If it's true. I just find it hard to believe that the College Board would let someone get 75% of the multiple choice questions wrong and yet score a 5. If true, it makes me question the validity of the test.</p>

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<p>JHS' post #4 brings up a good point. (But note that even 8-13 AP course-loads for seniors in one of our regional high-rent, high-profile Publics provided no high-profile college admissions during this recent round. The fact that the applicants to selective colleges were one-dimensional was <em>the</em> factor in denial, according to Harvard admissions.)<br>
I've said elsewhere that I think it's important for high schools to include syllabi/reading lists/performance expectations for non-AP classes that are nevertheless quite demanding (sometimes more so). A one-page summary suffices, is provided to the student; student takes responsibility for including with app. For colleges that refuse addenda, description listed on student's app. & reinforced on that teacher's recommendation for any privates.</p>

<p>In my D's high school, the "average" student is given demanding curricula in all core courses. There are no secondary level textbooks in any of the core courses with the exception of non-AP foreign language. (There are no textbooks per se for Eng. classes; & any readers are college-level. History, math, science, art history, electives are all college-level only. After years of trying to fit in secondary texts, they have finally abanadoned even trying. It was told to me by the Dean of Studies that the least capable student there is beyond any secondary textbook.</p>

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<p>xiggi writes that the explosion of AP courses "mostly occurs at truly mediocre high schools." That is certainly true of my town. I used to attend BOE meetings ten years ago asking why we only offered six APs. Other parents joined in and before you knew it, over 20 were offered. Trouble is, passing rates stink! The school sacrificed quality for quantity to make us pesky parents shut up. When you have to be the mayor's cousin to get a teaching spot, the quality of instruction tends to suffer.</p>

<p>I do know what JHS means by Catholic schools that suddenly "got ambition." In our densely populated area of NJ, the range of quality among Catholic schools is enormous. Once the public begins to perceive a local Catholic school as mediocre & parents choose to save the $8000 and go public, the APs are introduced. Most of the top Catholics offer fewer APs but truly challenging high honors courses or dual enrollment options.</p>

<p>My d is only a sophomore, so I have limited personal experience with the AP set-up at her all-girl Catholic. Nobody can take APs prior to junior year. But it appears that the courses designated as AP are worthy of that label. To enroll in APUSH, for example, the girls must have completed a sophomore level high honors US history class or proved that she is capable with high grades in the lower level classes. Here's the course description:</p>

<p>United States History I - High Honors (2203) GRADE 10 YEAR
This is an advanced level course in United States History. It is designed to provide a college-level course in American History stressing primary source material and research skills necessary for analysis of the document-based questions that are taught at this level. Critical essays based on assigned outside readings and research papers are required regularly. Students in this course will be screened for enrollment in US History II - Advanced Placement through a qualifying test administered in the 3rd quarter.
Prerequisites: Students are selected on the basis of: </p>

<p>Minimum average of 90% in World History and English, High Honors
Minimum average of 94 % in World History and English, Honors
Minimum average of 95% in World History and English
Minimum of 90% National Percentile in NEDT Composite
Department Recommendation
Note: All students are required to complete a summer assignment which is due the 1st day of class in September. This assignment is in addition to the XXX Summer Reading Program</p>

<p>Essentially, APUSH is being stretched out over two years so the course isn't a mile wide and an inch thick. Perhaps this is the norm? (I really don't know.)I love the focus on document-based questions. I love that only strong students are admitted, but girls who started out in a lower track and suddenly "caught fire" can have a shot at the course, too.</p>

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<p>Epiphany, that is a good idea if the transcripts had some indication as to the rigor, content, and expectations of the course. I recall the rec that both my D's History teacher (they each had him for two years in very demanding courses, one which was integrated with English) and he actually really describes in the rec the kind of work and secondary sources and so on that was involved in the courses they had with him. For instance, the names of the courses would never do justice to how demanding these classes were. One class was called Democracies - Honors (older D had it in 9th, younger D had it in tenth as they had changed the sequence of Honors History courses starting in her year) and the other course they took with him was the Honors 11th grade integrated History/English course called American Studies. So, many adcoms would have no idea what these courses entailed or how rigorous they truly were. They were not text book oriented. Both involved numerous papers of an analytical nature.</p>

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<p>In post #9, I just realized that I used the wrong term...by accident, sorry. I meant my kids' courses used PRIMARY sources, not secondary ones like text books.</p>

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<p>I've read this thread with some interest. Here in Los Angeles the well regarded private school Crossroads has just dropped their entire AP curriculum. They too surveyed the colleges and universities their students have historically attended (a wide ranging list containing all of the ivies and top LAC's) and none of the school had a problem with it. Having one through a heavy AP curriculum with one of my kids, I was on the whole very disheartened by it, especially in the humanities. Even with a great teacher, there's only so much time to go into any one period of history, for example. I don't know what the benefit is to high schoolers taking survey classes that reward memorization over analysis. For what it's worth...</p>

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<p>Granted it's only a month into the school year, but my daughter's APUSH class has been wonderful for her. She's discovered the world of primary source materials and resulting class discussions which have taken them far beyond the textbook. I've never seen her enjoy history before and now I see passion. They do have people and events that have to be learned, but the emphasis has been analysis and writing, not multiple choice. I really like the way her podunk high school does AP. Small groups of only the most capable students, in about 8 subjects, with heavy expectation that they'll take and pass the exams.</p>

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<p>My daughter cyberschools due to a competing activity (ballet) and is taking 2 AP courses. I can't believe what is required in AP Bio in such short time. Granted, this is what an intro bio course in college looks like, but with continued expansion of bio knowledge, how much more can be crammed in? These kids are learning about things I didn't get to until a post- residency fellow.</p>

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<p>
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These kids are learning about things I didn't get to until a post- residency fellow.

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<p>Makes you feel old, doesn't it?</p>

<p>My d is definitely expected to handle much more, both quantity and depth, than I did in h.s. Just as an example, in her high honors soph English class, the girls are expected to check for any additional assignments each day on the school's website. English homework had already been assigned that day in class, so d just scrolled through her techers' sites to double check. Also due the very next day was an essay comparing the tone, content, literary devices, and structure of Benjamin Banneker's Letter to Jefferson with Patrick Henry's "Give me liberty or give me death" speech. A rather meaty assignment to be tossed of as an afterthought, I'd say. I don't think her workload would be possible without a laptop to make use of commuting time.</p>

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<p>The College Board must feel its franchise being threatened.</p>