<p>Are CLEP tests still around? I haven't heard them mentioned in years. Don't even know who administered them.</p>
<p>I took CLEP tests but found their acceptance greatly different from the advertisements.</p>
<p>I had several high school teachers who did not want their courses to be AP, at least when I was there. It severely limits their ability to teach (esp. in English and French), as there are things that need to be covered for AP. Also, the requirements change every year, so it would cost the school a lot of money. Anyway, I got a great education, but we didn't have "AP" courses outside of sciences and calc. </p>
<p>One big AP problem is designating any "honours" class as "AP." So students will take "AP" courses that aren't really college-level, which is bad for the top kids (who could do the work) and bad for kids at other schools, who cannot compete. Realistically, a student cannot handle more than one or two truly college-level courses at a time. I wonder if the AP test admins will realize this and curtail the numbers of tests that can be taken every year - i.e. do true college-level work, not glorified high school work. I also wonder if schools will ever be required to report the AP scores of people who take the tests, to give an idea of the quality of the course.</p>
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Realistically, a student cannot handle more than one or two truly college-level courses at a time.
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<p>As in so many matters like this, that depends on the student. I have a ninth grader taking AP U.S. history (taught by a college professor through distance learning, with LOTS of supplemental readings and discussion and papers beyond the main textbook), AP physics B (with plenty of problem-solving), and a university honors calculus II course covering the "C" topics of the AP calculus BC course this semester (following up on an AB-like course last year). He will take all three of those AP tests this school year, and even if he didn't take the tests, I think the courses would be quite credible, given that their providers are known nationwide for the alumni they produce. </p>
<p>Referring to something JHS said, I heartily approve of pluralism. If a school consciously declines to apply the AP designation to its courses, more power to it. If another school consciously, HONESTLY decides to deliver up a top-quality course consistent with the AP syllabus, more power to it too. And if a student takes the initiative to self-study the content of an AP course (as many bright students do), more power to them as well. I do hope that people shopping for schools do so with their eyes open, and know what tradeoffs they are making by accepting differing school programs.</p>
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Realistically, a student cannot handle more than one or two truly college-level courses at a time.
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<p>Why not? When they're a year or two older and actually in college, they will take four or five such courses at a time.</p>
<p>There is a big difference, though, between AP courses taught at the college pace (e.g., AP BC Calculus or AP U.S. History taught in one year) and those taught at a slower pace (e.g., year-long AP courses that are equivalent to one-semester college couses; AP Psychology, AP Statistics, and AP AB Calculus are often taught in this way).</p>
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I also wonder if schools will ever be required to report the AP scores of people who take the tests, to give an idea of the quality of the course.
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<p>In NJ, the State Department of Education reports all the standardized test data for every school district. This shows numbers of kids taking each AP course, # who take the test, and # who pass. I can't remember if a breakdown of 3 -4 -5 scores is provided. Only the successful districts advertise the numbers on their own. All the good privates & parochials here do the same, as well as providing a comparison between their grades & the national passing rates. My d's school was very upfront about the numbers because the girls achieved both passing rates and scores of 5 that were triple the national average. Our town h.s. likes to pretend that the tests and results don't exist. They just brag about the number of courses offered. Surprisingly, that fools a great deal of townsfolk.</p>
<p>An AP or an IB course is a way for a school/district which has neither the means nor the desire to come up with their own curricular content for more academically talented kids to have access to a framework to do so. The content is, it seems to me, more highly prescribed in IB- as is the process. Why re-invent the wheel? I think is the, justified, thinking of many...</p>
<p>Schools/districts which are highly 'resource-ful' (like those mentioned in the OP) are more likely to have faculty and the means to develop programming that is equally rigorous, but not restricted by either of the program options.</p>
<p>A lesser known school is also likely more 'at risk' if they abolish AP because it does not give the colleges a framework for understanding their student body. </p>
<p>Our school publishes a profile which is sent with every application-- it delineates how well the previous classes have done on AP and IB exams- so not only do the receiving schools know what the options are for a given student, they also know how the student has done (on junior year exams) referenced to school norms.</p>
<p>There is no magic to the AP exams. Many kids taking the time to do so after a more 'eclectic' approach to advance preparation could probably study for them, take and do well on them for college credit if that is what they want. However, with many kids I know at the most elite schools, very little credit was in fact given for very high scores...</p>
<p>As a HS senior, my S & many of his friends took 5+ APs + music (for him marching band). They had very thorough coverage of all subjects in their AP classes & many of their instructors are on national committees which sets up the AP curriculum. Many of them took the APs because the instructors are awesome & the classes are very small--only 4 to 20 students (often a dozen or fewer). Quite a few on the HS faculty have PhDs & all are very involved in helping the kids have a deep understanding of the material covered & are readily available for extra help. The kids head off for college with a very solid background, whether or not their Us give them credit or just note that they did take a rigorous courseload in HS. Most of them find the adjustment to college academics very comfortable.</p>
<p>Oh yeah, 5s are the most common score for APs at the HS, followed by 4s & a few 3s. A few kids do self-study & take APs, "for fun," as desired, but most take the course & are required by the HS to take the AP exam as a condition of taking the course.</p>
<p>I think this is a natural outgrowth of taking a good idea and stretching it into an absurdity. Early decision programs made sense for a few kids who knew exactly where they wanted to go to school and gave colleges a small pool of near 100% yield. The current situation has 3/4 of the hs class agonizing over which college to choose as their ED school. AP courses also started as a nice idea, but now students feel they must take only AP classes, and worst of all the nation's high schools are ranked (ie, The Nation's BEST high schools!!) bases soley on the AP exams taken. Perhaps both programs have gotten to the point where it is best just to start over.</p>
<p>Our large urban midwestern public only offers a few APs - Calc and languages I think. There are no science, English or history AP classes but there are advanced classes in all those areas. The school doesn't offer them because they don't want to be tied into the AP curriculum. There are other books they want to teach or they want to spend more time on a specific area, etc. All 3 of mine took the English AP exams without studying and got 4s and 5s. The 2 who are pursuing science had no difficulty with their entry level science classes. </p>
<p>AP classes are not the be all to end all and it is ridiculous to evaluate high schools strictly on how many kids take AP exams. I am grateful that our school has taken the time to evaluate curriculum and to develop something that meets the values of our community, challenges students and prepares them well for higher education.</p>
<p>TokenAdult - that's a rare kid.</p>
<p>In my high school, the top 20% would take AP courses, in addition to their other courses. Don't forget that, in college, you're both older and taking only four courses at a time, with all but 12 hours a week are free. Kids these days do a lot more ECs and don't have time for well-done college courses. Six courses + gym + ECs v. four courses, most of which are honestly geared towards freshmen. Most college students don't take calc and chem and physics all at once - even for college freshmen, that's considered a very tough load.</p>
<p>Rare are the kids who take 5 APs all at once and get 5s in all of them. Don't forget - a 3 is equal to a "C" in college. The theory of APs is that students can place out of courses. If you take AP Chem, AP Physics, and AP Calc, you should be able to place into physical chemistry as a freshman. Very few students are really prepared for that after those AP courses.</p>
<p>The independent prep school my kids attend limits the amount of AP courses to 3 per year. They offer courses without the AP designation which are understood by colleges to be, at the minimum, equivalent to the difficulty of AP courses and are sometimes more difficult in content.</p>
<p>Just to establish some context here, where are students going to college from the high schools each of you know best? I'm sure, to answer my own question, that the plurality of students from my town's high school (not where my son is attending), go to our state's flagship university. The high school here does not get an Ivy admission even once a year, but does get an Ivy admission (or several) in any given five-year span. MIT is also a rare destination for young people from my town's high school (or from any of the five best prep day schools in town), but is a common destination for alumni of the university-based math program my son is in. Most local high schools here have a few AP courses, and my town's high school has AP distinguished scholars every year, but amazingly few National Merit semifinalists for such a high-SES school district.</p>
<p>My youngest son's high school is high competitive where many students takes tons of AP classes. The school considered it a high priority to reduce the stress level of the students by discouraging the practice. The school imposes very strict prerequisites for classes and students are not allowed to test out classes. However, it was not very successful because most students are still accelerated, many are double accelerated. The trick is that you beef up your student academically it in elementary school, and push the 5th grade teacher to give a recommendation for double acceleration to middle school, then make sure they don't get a B in the accelerated class in middle school (on the other hand B in high school is OK), then when you are in high school prerequisites are not a roadblock to taking as many AP classes as you want.</p>
<p>I was not that knowledgeable back then, and it really was not in my mind that you need to plan for college in elementary school. He did got a single acceleration in math, but he did not like the math teachers and was not paying attention. He got a B in 7th grade math. Now he is in the minority that is not accelerated. The irony is that he took the SAT in 8th grade for CTY and his score is higher than most of seniors in his high school. Anyway he is now in 10th grade, but because of the prerequisites requirements, he will not be able to take Calculus AP at all in his high school. Most science AP classes is out of reach until senior year, His weighted GPA will be lower than his classmates with the similar ability when he applies to college.</p>
<p>It is sour grape, I don't care much about the AP system.</p>
<p>About 10% of the kids from my kids' HS go to the flagship U. Our HS has about 40% of the NMFs for the state each year. Every year, there is at least 1 student who goes to MIT, a few to Stanford, few to Harvard & some to other ivies & 1st tiers. Like many other HS, several kids turn down bigger name schools (including ivies) for more merit $$$, so the school the kids matriculate at is not necessarily the most "prestigous one" they were accepted at. For example, one of the 2006 validictorians was accepted at pretty much all the schools she applied to, including top tier LACs like Middleberry & others but matriculated at in-state flagship, where she will receive a full-ride + outside scholarships of about $10,000. She plans to attend med school & doesn't want to incur debt as an undergrad.</p>
<p>Here's an exerpt from the school profile for 2004-2005:</p>
<p>"In 2004, 762 AP Examinations were written, with 79% earning socres of 4 or 5 and 96% receiving scores of 3, 4, or 5. In the class of 2005, 189 (84%) seniors are participants in the AP Program."</p>
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Our HS has about 40% of the NMFs for the state each year.
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<p>Iolani, I presume? </p>
<p>Few places can match it, either in terms of AP success or NMF numbers, and those that can are usually highly selective magnet schools, such as Virginia's Thomas Jefferson.</p>
<p>"It is sour grape, I don't care much about the AP system."</p>
<p>Several kids in our high school took precalc over the summer. According to our son, at least at our high school, precalc is very slow paced and a good one to do in the summer. However, it may well be that your kid has better things to do in the summer. And that's fine!</p>
<p>Our high school offers 22 APs, but I don't have any idea what the average number taken is. I know how many took each test but not what scores they got. It's no 40% though. I was a little shocked that there were only 6 NMSF in a class of 750 or so. I'm guessing there are a dozen or so kids who take 3 or 4 APs junior and senior year, and maybe 1 or 2 as sophomores. My kid will have 8, I think. He hasn't been overworked yet, but his ECs aren't that time intensive.</p>
<p>tokenadult:</p>
<p>Our high school is bimodal both in terms of SES, educational levels of parents, and educational achievements and plans of students. The school has an average SAT score that does not crack 1000 but it also sends students to Harvard, MIT, Yale , Brown, Wesleyan, every year. It also has its share of students who do not pass the high stakes 10th grade exist exam, at least at first try.<br>
But the important thing for an advanced student is that it is possible to accelerate through the curriculum and to take courses at the Harvard Extension School (it serves as the community college for high schoolers from the Boston area and is free or nearly free for most of them--a real bargain!). The situation that Bomgeedad describes does not apply here.</p>
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I was a little shocked that there were only 6 NMSF in a class of 750 or so.
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<p>That does seem low for such a large and obviously academic school (22 APs!). Are kids who could have attended that school going to magnet programs or private schools instead?</p>