NYT Editorial: "To All the Girls I've Rejected" by Dean of Admissions at Kenyon

Parents Forum
81

<p>NSM, again the average figures cited are misleading in the context of the schools that are getting the most attention on College Confidential. The causes for the lower number of attendance and graduation among blacks and hispanics are multiple, but attempting to advance differences in acceptances or open discrimination is fartfetched. Socio-economic and cultural differences account for a MUCH larger portion of the decisions not to attend or drop out of college. </p>

<p>To illustrate this, let's compare the numbers for black students against the average of all groups in the upper-income brackets:</p>

<p>Blacks Upper Income 41 48 48
White Upper Income 52 48 49
Hispanics Upper Income 50 52 49
Asians Upper Income 52 54 51<br>
All Groups Upper Income 51 48 49</p>

<p>As you can see the GREATEST success is found in the BLACK group where the numbers have jumped from 41% to 48%, and accordingly almost reached the average of the gender distribution of other groups.</p>

<p>The obvious conclusion is that income distribution seems to provide more causation that ethnic differences.</p>

<p>PS This is a table showing the evolution of the percentage of male students in US colleges for three dates: 1995-96, 1999-00, and finally 2003-04 </p>

<p>White
Low-income (Less than $30,000) 46 42 42
Middle-income ($30,000 to $69,999) 50 46 43
Upper Income ($70,000 or more) 52 48 49 </p>

<p>Black
Low-income (Less than $30,000) 32 36 36
Middle-income ($30,000 to $69,999) 48 42 42
Upper Income ($70,000 or more) 41 48 48 </p>

<p>Hispanic
Low-income (Less than $30,000) 43 43 39
Middle-income ($30,000 to $69,999) 46 51 42
Upper Income ($70,000 or more) 50 52 49 </p>

<p>Asian
Low-income (Less than $30,000) 53 51 47
Middle-income ($30,000 to $69,999) 57 48 50
Upper Income ($70,000 or more) 52 54 51 </p>

<p>All Groups<br>
Low-income (Less than $30,000) 44 42 40
Middle-income ($30,000 to $69,999) 50 47 44
Upper Income ($70,000 or more) 51 48 49</p>

82

<p>This is ridiculous. Sorry. I applied to MIT, where I got rejected, while women with significantly worse grades and scores got accepted. Top techinical programs admit women at a clip 2-3 times higher than they admit men. Their dean should write an article entitled: "To all the boys I've rejected."</p>

83

<p>Xiggi, thanks for bringing some hard numbers to the discussion. However...</p>

<p>You said "The obvious conclusion is that income distribution seems to provide more causation that ethnic differences."</p>

<p>Hopefully you recall from my past rants on statistics and data analysis that one CANNOT draw such a conclusion. First, correlation does not equal causation. (repeat after me, three times...[smile]) Second, one MUST consider minority recruiting, athletics and so forth, especially when it comes to higher income students. We should all realize by now that there is a high correlation between income and academic achievement, which means black students in the upper income bracket (doesn't matter where one cuts the bracket, BTW) will be the top performers, which means THEY will be the ones most likely to be recruited by the HYPs etc.</p>

<p>Frankly, given the underlying demographics, just looking at the upper income bracket, a drop from 52% to 49% for whites, or 51 to 49 overall, especially given the increase in black males, is a HUGE difference. I hardly need a stat chart to tell you it is statistically significant. </p>

<p>So, it raises the curious question in my mind of what is going on? </p>

<p>And where?</p>

<p>So much of the valuable data to really understand the situation is not available, even for elite schools. For instance, take the top ones who release the common data set. That data is just to limited to have any understanding of gender impact. It will, unfortunately, take a study like that for the early admissions game to really tease out what's going on. I suspect those authors are already reanalyzing their data!</p>

84

<p>Sam;</p>

<p>That is the flip side. At many colleges that are famous for their Technical degrees, they are begging for girls. Many of the colleges that my son is looking at are any where from 60/40 to 75/25 tilted towards boys.</p>

<p>It seems that the colleges that are more "liberal arts" oriented are heavier girl.</p>

85

<p>Xiggi,
Thanks for posting the charts showing race, scores and income. I'd love to see the original chart because I'd like to use it in some research that I'm doing. If you don't want to post the link here, please PM me.</p>

86

<p>I went to US News, and got the following statistics, comparing the acceptance rate of boys (M) to girls (F). </p>

<p>Girls acceptance rate lower
Vassar 36.8 M 25 F
Sarah Lawrence 51 M 42 F
Northwestern 34.5 M 26 F
BC 36.6 M 28.6 F
Swarthmore 29 M 23 F
Pomona 23.7 M 17 F
Tufts 30.2 M 25 F
Brown 19 M 14.8 F
Wesleyan 30.5 M 26 F
GWU 41 M 36 F
Wash U 24 M 20 F
Fordham 53 M 48.6 F
Columbia 15.3 M 11.3 F
Middlebury 27.6 M 24 F
Duke 25 M 22.8 F
Emory 40 M 37.6 F
Amherst 21.5 M 20 F
Yale 10.8 M 9.1 F</p>

<p>Almost equal acceptance rate
Princeton 12.5 M 12.8 F
Harvard 10.45 M 10.92 F
Georgetown 22 M 22 F
Williams 19 M 19 F
Brandeis 39.9 M 40. 7 F
Rice 22 M 22.6 F
Stanford 13 M 12.6 F
Syracuse 58.4 M 59 F
Oberlin 36 M 37 F
Cornell 29 M 30 F</p>

<p>Girls acceptance rate higher
Case Western 69.7 M 71.7 F
Univ of Penn. 20 M 22 F
NYU 33.5 M 35.7 F
Univ. of Chic 38.8 M 41 F
Haverford 27.5 M 30 F
Dartmouth 16.9 M 20.4 F
Johns Hop 28.4 M 31.6 F
BU 53 M 57 F
Macalester 35.7 M 41 F
Lehigh 36 M 41 F
Bucknell 33.6 M 39 F
Goucher 61 M 71 F
American 46 M 57 F
MIT 11.7 M 27 F</p>

<p>Obviously there are schools where girls do better and schools where boys do better. When our kids are considering where to apply, knowing these statistics might be helpful. Some of the differences are quite remarkable.</p>

<p>For example: one of my daughter’s friends likes both Swarthmore and MIT, but feels that MIT is “too hard” for her to get into. But while 23 percent of girls were accepted to Swarthmore, 27 percent got into MIT. She might want to reconsider.</p>

<p>Some of these colleges have different “schools,” – Cornell, Georgetown, Univ. of Pennsylvania, Northwestern, for example – that kids apply to. I’m sure the rates change within a college. </p>

<p>(I hope I did the math right – when dealing with this many numbers, good chance there’s at least one incorrect calculation.)</p>

87

<p>"Xiggi,
Thanks for posting the charts showing race, scores and income. I'd love to see the original chart because I'd like to use it in some research that I'm doing. If you don't want to post the link here, please PM me."</p>

<p>NSM, I posted the link to the chart in my earlier post. Please see my post of yesterday at 1103. In my answer to you, I simply reproduced the chart in a different format for CC. </p>

<p>NMD, I believe that I start to understand the differences between correlation and causation, but I appreciate the comments nonetheless. However, I am a bit confused by your analysis -amnd my apparent failure to analyze the numbers proerly- as the numbers I discussed represent the distribution of gender among the same ethnic groups. Was I wrong to offer the suggestion that the difference almost vanishes in the higher income brackets?</p>

<p>Edited to add the link to chart:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2005-10-19-male-college-cover_x.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2005-10-19-male-college-cover_x.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

88

<p>Xiggi, </p>

<p>You are correct to say "difference almost vanishes in the higher income brackets" as an observation. However, to generalize beyond that straightforward statement is unjustified. We just don't know whether the balanced admissions is a result of a balanced applicant pool, or whether different standards were used for admission. It is even more complicated when one considers potential yield differences between genders.</p>

<p>Part of the challenge is that the USNWR table represents enrollment. The original article, and the topic of biggest concern to us parents, is admission. So, to some degree separate discussions have been going on here. Also, I commented on the CHANGE in male enrollment, another issue to consider. </p>

<p>So, the most we can conclude from the USNWR data is:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>Within each racial groups reported, the percentage of male enrollment rises with income.</p></li>
<li><p>For whites, in each income group, there has been a steady drop in male enrollment percent from 95-6 to 03-4. For all other groups, the trend is complex.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>We really cannot conclude anything more, without knowing something about the applicant pool.</p>

89

<p>
[quote]
What the department should be doing is figuring out how to help boys reach college. The gender gap has been getting worse for two decades, but the Education Department still isn't focusing on it. Instead, it has an "educational equity" program aimed at helping girls and women.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I think there's something very important here. What do you expect to happen at the college level if there exist so many discrepencies in attention, encouragment, programming, money, expectations, ect, long before?</p>

90

<p>Wow sly_vt, those are interesting statistics. As a girl that just got rejected from Northwestern journalism school and Vassar..it makes me feel better about my rejections, knowing how much harder it is for girls, but these stats would definitely help girls/boys that are in the college search process. Although it does seem a bit arbitrary that some schools have such varying percentages, at the same time I understand why a college would want a 50/50 male to female ratio. </p>

<p>Is there any way we can find out these male/female differences for other schools as well?</p>

91

<p>chicgeek: I got all the stats from the USNews web site, but I paid for the premium online service. Plus, those are 2004 numbers -- I wouldn't be surprised if the gap has widened at some schools. If there are any particular schools you want to know about, I can look them up for you.</p>

<p>And I'm so sorry about Vassar and NU. I hope you have some acceptances to consider.</p>

92

<p>American speaking students in the math and science arena better be ready for the pashtun, mandorin among other non-english professors, teaching assistants that will not give one iota about the quality of english being spoken in lecture or labs.</p>

93

<p>newyorkcitydwell:</p>

<p>Boy.... this has been a complaint for years.... I wonder why colleges still allow this. All it would take is requiring anyone who speaks with a 'strong accent" to attend some speech lessons to learn how to pronounce English words (if they want to teach in the college). </p>

<p>There is too much money being spent these days for college (either by the attendees or the taxpayers) to continue to have profs/TAs that are not easily understandable. The students should revolt!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</p>

94

<p>There is the legend of a UCLA Physics prof with a strong accent who would speak as he scribbled equations across the board and punctuate every paragraph by turning around and asking, "Everybody understand now. Yes? No? Maybe?" </p>

<p>One day the whole class by pre-arrangement shouted "No!"</p>

95

<p>The acceptance rate at Smith is higher for females. ;)</p>

96

<p>As a mother of three daughters, the youngest of whom is currently a high school senior, I can tell you that women are at a disadvantage at liberal arts colleges that strive to balance the male/female ratio. It is unfair to women and I had an admission director tell me that the reason my oldest D was waitlisted was because she was female and "quite honestly had she been male with the same stats, she'd have been admitted." </p>

<p>Many of the liberal arts colleges are striving to attract more males, thus are less selective because they "can" be. I've seen it played out over and over in the seven years between D#1 and D#3 entering the application process as we live in a small town in MA with one of the best public schools systems in the state. I see who gets in where and I know basically where they stand academically. Our HS publishes "outcomes" and being a small town it doesn't take much to figure out who went where and what their stats (and gender) are.</p>

<p>Two of my D's excel at math and one has gone in that direction in her choice of majors in college. The youngest has no interest in science or engineering, despite excellent grades in math throughout h.s. and SAT's that place her in the top 3%. Now if she was interested in math/engineering she would have an advantage due to gender. C'est la vie!</p>

<p>Many other issues play into who gets in. My D's (and in this case gender isn't the issue) are at a severe disadvantage, in terms of geography, in applying to the competitive schools in MA and surrounding states. Yet are at an advantage if they apply out of our region.</p>

<p>It's the way it is. Is it fair? No, of course not but I don't see it changing any time soon.</p>

97

<p>Aren't raw percentage/rejection numbers of limited usefulness without other corresponding stats for each sex?</p>

98

<p>Kenyon parent here with first D a junior. Second D a HS senior in the throes of the admissions game. I just read the posting on the Kenyon website about this year's incoming class and they boast a nearly a 50:50 F:M split, though the school overall has a ratio of 53:47 (a result of admissions imbalance in the upper classes or higher male attrition after matriculation?). FWIW, I think if they have more qualified female applicants then they should accept more females.</p>