NYT Frets About High School Grads Making a Good Living

[MirabileDictu]

<br>

<p>I think we need to unpack the bias here. What is deficient about some making $100K
working as an oil rigger? Thats a career. Are they some how “Less Than” [tm] because
they dont have a sociology degree? They know more about their field than the average
person, and less about some academic areas. That would be true of any field. </p>

<br>

<p>Whose bias are you referring to? I said nothing to imply that a $100k per annum job as an oil rigger is not a career, or that a Sociology degree improves the odds of having a career. I limited my argument to students who INTEND to go to college. I also pointed out that the article makes it clear that the majority of these students are NOT getting high paying jobs in the oil industry. They are getting (relatively) high paying jobs in industries that support the oil industry. I do not think that the $24 per hour convenience store clerk is positioning herself well for future employment. If she never intended to further her eduction, then that $24 per hour job is great. If, however, she intends to go to college and passed up an opportunity to attend college because of the lure of earning $24 per hour at the 7-11, I think she’s made a risky decision.</p>

[argbargy]

<p>I am talking about a general bias. </p>

<p>If someone foregoes a degree its seen as a shame. Why is that and are there good reasons or is it just an emotional reaction? Is it just status seeking? You can see the Times writer isnt happy about it.</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>

@argbagy

There is always room in any field for a great person who is hard working. And I love computer science. But I’d advise anyone getting a CS degree to mix it with something else. CS + finance, or + biology, or PMP. If you are just generic IT you are going to find a tough road.

</p>

<p>Actual IT jobs seem to be more about managing computers, rather than designing computers and their software. IT jobs appear to mainly go to those who studies MIS/IS/IT in business school (much to the detriment of service when a problem requiring greater technical CS understanding is encountered). The better jobs for CS majors are in designing computers and their software, not managing it. The job prospects are also likely much better in areas with lots of companies competing for software developers compared to areas with just one where you can take the job or leave it.</p>

<p>Adding biology as a second major for job prospects seems like a bad idea – it means a lot of time spent (labs), dealing with grade-grubbing pre-meds competing for the A grades, and poor biology-specific job prospects at graduation. A CS student interested in computational biology probably just needs a few courses in biology and statistics, not a full second major.</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>

@Beliavsky

What is the graduation rate of people who start college at 25? I assume colleges that require the SAT require them to have been taken in the last 2 or 3 years. How do SAT scores change from age 18 to 25?

</p>

<p>SAT scores may be less or not relevant for the older students, who seem to be more likely to get their start in community college and then transfer as juniors to four year schools.</p>

[BCEagle91]

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<p>Of course, and many do. There is, however, no getting around the fact
that doing so ratchets up the degree of difficulty</p>

<br>

<p>It can. But not necessarily so. Taking courses with a significant work
history can make the courses easier as the student has real world
experience. The availability of online courses can make things even
easier than attending in-person.</p>

<br>

<p>(and time to completion) significantly.</p>

<br>

<p>Time to completion shouldn’t be a big deal if you’re making good money.</p>

<br>

<p>That’s why I say that this is a risky path for a student who INTENDS
to go to college.</p>

<br>

<p>Is it riskier than taking out loans for college?</p>

<br>

<p>It’s not an impassible path, or even one without other benefits or
attractions, it is simply a more difficult one.</p>

<br>

<p>Only 25% of college students attend full-time.</p>

<p>I imagine that it’s easier for some and harder for others. But I’d
guess that it’s overall easier if you have a very nice income stream
while you are doing it.</p>

<br>

<p>There is no easier time to attend college than when you have no
significant responsibilities to others. If you know you want a four
year degree, it is probably best to get it before you take on those
responsibilities.</p>

<br>

<p>I went to school full-time for a year and wound up with a not-so-good
GPA. I finished many years later with a great GPA. I didn’t have the
maturity when I was young to do well in college courses. The working
world, and starting my own business resulted in me having a much
easier time with college courses when I was older.</p>

<p>What if you don’t have the money to attend college? What if you don’t
have the family support? 75% are doing it part-time. Do you not think
that those with great jobs aren’t going to do better than the entire
population?</p>

[BCEagle91]

<br>

<p>A CS student interested in computational biology probably just needs a few courses in
biology and statistics, not a full second major. </p>

<br>

<p>A CS student might be able to pick up the material from online courses.</p>

<p>Stanford (and I would guess many other schools) has certificate and Masters programs for those that want paper credentials.</p>

[OHMomof2]

<p>The article does address kids who postpone college:** A 2005 federal Department of Education report showed that students who delayed college were more likely to drop out. **</p>

<p>As for what jobs the kids are doing instead of college, the article specifically mentions:</p>

<p>Tegan Sivertson, 19, who **monitors pipelines **for a gas company</p>

<p>Katorina Pippenger…makes $24 an hour as a **cashier **in nearby Williston, N.D., the epicenter of the boom</p>

<p>Some found work making deliveries to oil rigs, doing **construction **and repairing machinery. </p>

<p>Others decided to first seek training as welders or diesel mechanics, which pay more than entry-level jobs.</p>

<p>Dmetri Ross, 17, said he would join his father and uncle **working in a lab running tests on water samples **and cement related to drilling. </p>

<p>Shay Findlay…repair work on drilling pumps</p>

<p>and then</p>

<p>School officials said that **few teenagers were working directly for energy companies. Instead, they are working with the wide range of support companies that excavate, build and maintain the wells, or, in a race with the dizzying pace of growth, construct the hotels, apartments and camps for employees. **</p>

<p>So it appears some jobs are more directly in the oil/gas industry (monitoring pipelines, testing water, repairing machinery) and some are just support (drivers, cashiers, construction) that follow lots of people. </p>

<p>Obviously since the article is about kids not going to college, none are going to be engineers or anything that makes a ton of money in oil/gas unless they return to school.</p>

[BCEagle91]

<br>

<p>A 2005 federal Department of Education report showed that students who delayed
college were more likely to drop out. </p>

<br>

<p>Do they drop back in and finish their degrees? I finished my BA at 31. What would the stats be for me back then? Dropped out to work and never finished the degree?</p>

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<p>Obviously since the article is about kids not going to college, none are going to be
engineers or anything that makes a ton of money in oil/gas unless they return to
school. </p>

<br>

<p>You don’t need a degree to make a ton of money in oil/gas.</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>

@OHMomof2

Obviously since the article is about kids not going to college, none are going to be engineers or anything that makes a ton of money in oil/gas unless they return to school.

</p>

<p>Seems like those non-engineering oil and gas jobs earn a lot of money.</p>

<p>Of course, work conditions may be part of the reason they have to offer high pay, as many oil and gas jobs are in unpleasant or isolated places (and may involve dealing with messy oil and oily things). Petroleum engineers can earn huge pay compared to other engineers, but the same work conditions issues apply to them as well.</p>

[OHMomof2]

<p>The article quoted earlier refers only to careers that require higher ed as earning "a ton of money ", but I suppose “a ton of money” is relative and many will define that differently.</p>

<p>[Oil</a> rig workers make nearly $100,000 a year - May. 10, 2012](<a href=“http://money.cnn.com/2012/05/10/news/economy/oil_workers/index.htm]Oil”>Oil rig workers make nearly $100,000 a year - May. 10, 2012)</p>

<p>

In 2011 the average salary for rig workers and other industry personnel was $99,175.</p>

<p>That number includes fat paychecks for the highly skilled, like $235,586 for a “drilling consultant” and $139,868 for a “reservoir engineer”, according to Rigzone, an industry information provider that compiled the figures.</p>

<p>But even for someone with less than a year’s experience the average wage was $66,923.</p>

<p>A roustabout, one of the lowest workers on a rig who performs general maintenance and physical labor and requires little prior training, made $34,680 – the median wage for all American workers.

</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>Pretty sure that $34,680 would be considered a lot of money for someone in an entry level job with no or minimal education or training requirements. Actually, that is fairly close to the $36,108 that is the average pay level of MIT class of 2011 biology graduates, according to [Survey</a> Data | MIT Global Education & Career Development](<a href=“http://gecd.mit.edu/resources/data]Survey”>http://gecd.mit.edu/resources/data) .</p>

[OHMomof2]

<p>

would be considered a lot of money for someone in an entry level job with no or minimal education

</p>

<p>That was sort of my point :)</p>

[Beliavsky]

<p>This article documents in Texas the same trend of students not going to college to take high-paying jobs in the energy industry.</p>

<p>[Community</a> College Spotlight | 2-year enrollment dips by 2% in Texas](<a href=“http://communitycollegespotlight.org/content/2-year-enrollment-dips-by-2-in-texas_11792/]Community”>http://communitycollegespotlight.org/content/2-year-enrollment-dips-by-2-in-texas_11792/)</p>

<p>

Areas of the state undergoing an economic boom, such as with lucrative energy jobs near the Eagle Ford Shale natural gas and oil formation, are experiencing more substantial enrollment declines than other regions.</p>

<p>…</p>

<p>“It’s hard to keep a student in school to get their associate’s when they can go make $65,000 a year as a truck driver,” Chavez said.

</p>

[BCEagle91]

<p>That truck driver job is the rational choice. As with any job, it’s a good idea to sock cash away when you are young. I imagine these kids could sock away about 50% of their net pay.</p>