<p>Again, one must distinguish among various levels of admission selectivity when discussing the so-called "advantage" that "a rich kid" has in the ED round. Depends on the quality of applicants the school tends to receive. For HYP, being rich is not enough, unless we're talking extraordinarily rich (for example, possibly a history of being a donor alum). If you're well-off but not a donor (or look like one), you're no guarantee-admit unless your stats are quite high or you're a special category such as a needed major, under-represented region, etc. For certain other colleges/U's (for example, NYU, some of the LAC's -- not necessarily all of them), affordability may be "enough," combined with at least respectable stats.</p>
<p>Let me just point out that there are plenty of CC'ers (parents & students) who have discussed applying ED to various U's, while needing a great deal of fin. aid. Most of those posting here have been granted the aid needed. Some have not, & have discussed on CC attempts to leave the contract and/or negotiate further. (Haven't followed all the results on those.) It is true that ED does tend to discourage those who need aid (it did us), but it also turns out that the well-endowed schools invariably come through with aid for ED admits anyway.</p>
<p>Xiggi, I know I overstated it a little, about the legal thing. I just think they like to avoid contract controversies whenever possible. I'll take your word for it on the poaching thing. D was only an EA & RD admit, so we wouldn't have personal experience on that end. The competing colleges did express keen interest (& discomfort) with her potential choices during April hosting days, & pried for information about that. It became sticky politically, but to our knowledge nobody did anything unethical. Later, one of the colleges did discuss her rejection of them with our GC, but that's as far as it went.</p>
<p>Along the lines of remarks made by StickerShock (love that screen name), if anything I think that eliminating ED levels the playing field more for the <em>middle class,</em> not the poor, for H,Y, and P. Unless that middle class student had something remarkable in the e.c., ethnic, or academic area, that student was mostly shut out during the ED round, it seems to me -- versus very-high and very-low income students. JMO.</p>
<p>LFk--you ask, if everything is fair the way it is, why apply ED? Well, saying I think it is fair, doesn't mean there are not advantages; it means that I think those advantages are more open to everyone than is generally granted.</p>
<p>The most obvious advantage is the being done-ness of it. Another one is to be able to signal in a tangible way to the college that this school is absolutely, really, one's first choice. That many people don't use it that way is troubling, but I can't control how others operate, obviously. Applying early also helps a well-qualified student with no obvious hooks stand out. I think you are more likely to get a close reading if you are one of 2000 than one of 20,000. </p>
<p>The trade-off, then, is the ability to compare offers, seek merit aid, etc, of course. Where I disagree is the assertion that middle income families can't make that choice. I know many who have. It is a choice, as long as we're talking about colleges who pledge to meet full need. You may not get your best deal, but you should get a reasonable one. Deciding to forego the quest for the "best" deal is, again, a choice. Again, I'm talking about meets full need schools only. </p>
<p>And I still maintain that finances are more difficult for a lower income student than a middle income one.</p>
<p>"The trade-off, then, is the ability to compare offers, seek merit aid, etc, of course. Where I disagree is the assertion that middle income families can't make that choice. I know many who have. It is a choice, as long as we're talking about colleges who pledge to meet full need. You may not get your best deal, but you should get a reasonable one. Deciding to forego the quest for the "best" deal is, again, a choice. Again, I'm talking about meets full need schools only."</p>
<p>Very true. Our income when my older d. was applying was a little over $60k, which is WAY over the middle. (actually puts us in the top third.) She only applied to 100%-of-need schools, most of them belonging to the Coalition on the Financing of Higher Education (COHFE) and hence claiming to use the same financial aid methodology. Our FASFA was not at all complex - no big house, no medical expenses, no outside businesses, no other kids in school. The differences in offers, top to bottom, amounted to $47k over four years (more than a full year of college expenses); loan amounts varied from $0 to $17.9k. Could we have "afforded" the additional $47k? Well, yes, but it would have been a stretch (and I have another kid coming down the pike.) Knowing what I do now, there is no way I would EVER consider ED for my kids - and, quite frankly, none of the schools that we are talking about is (for her) $47k better than the one she attends (I doubt that, for her, any of them are better straight up, but that's another conversation.) </p>
<p>Which scattergram is this? Showing what schools? # students? what years? etc. etc. Perhaps you can post a link.</p>
<p>In sorting the data from our own PHS (where 40-50% have gone ED/EA/SCEA) in recent years, I find only three cases where students accepted ED/SCEA had weaker stats than those accepted (or denied) in the regular round. All three of these I happen to know are recruited athletes (Division III).</p>
<p>lkf725 said,
[quote]
Even if you can afford full fare, would you not have taken scholarship money if offered it in the RD round?
[/quote]
We are essentially paying full fare and only allowed our son to apply to several schools EA (many only offer merit aid to those who apply early). We declined two full-tuition merit scholarships. So, no, there are certainly families who choose to pay full fare, even though it's difficult. Maybe we're just crazy.</p>
<p>
[quote]
We declined two full-tuition merit scholarships.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm assuming you declined scholarships at schools other than the one your son attended. I think lkf is referring to people who decline scholarship money yet still attend the school, because they feel a needy kid could use the $$$ more than them.</p>
<p>I guess I wasn't very clear sjmom (online conversation is not my best thing). What I meant was "even if you can afford full fare, would you not have taken scholarship money FROM THE SAME PREFERRED SCHOOL if offered it in the RD round". I know many students turn down generous scholarships to attend different schools offering no financial incentive. It's a comparison of the relative value of two different schools and a personal decision. </p>
<p>But even if families know their kid might get money in the RD round, they apply to the same school ED because it is an admissions advantage. I think it is a little disingenuous for people to say that they only applied early because the college was their first choice. If they thought they could get admitted during the regular round, they would do so and take the money even if they didn't need it (did anybody actually give back scholarship money?). A large part of the reason people apply early is the improved chance of admission. I guess what I'm trying to say is that financially well-off families can afford to buy this ED admission edge. Does that make any sense?</p>
<p>Soozie and mini, my niece (Tufts jr) is in Bologna all year."</p>
<p>Me, too, two, too. I also have a stepnephew in the Duke/UMich/UWisc program outside of Florence. It is interesting how different the programs are. The Duke program requires no Italian to attend, and doesn't even require language programs while you are there, and all classes are conducted in English. And all the students live together in one place, a big (beautiful) villa, six kilometers outside of Florence. The Smith Florence program requires a minimum of two years of college Italian, a pledge that English not be used as part of the program, all classes are conducted in Italian, is located in the Piazza de Signoria, and all students stay with families (instructed not to use any English.) I see benefits to both approaches, for different students. But it means that if a student is looking for a school that supports JYA, it is worth kicking the tires to see which ones get you where you want to go. (And, no, you can't go to another school and just apply to get into that at another school - both of the two programs described are oversubscribed by students from the sponsoring schools.)</p>
<p>In fairness, Duke is also the current sponsoring school for the ICCS-Rome program which has been a top program in Italy for decades, with classes for virtually all of the programs in Italian.</p>
<p>Actually, I didn't think I was being unfair - I see merit in Duke's Florence program for the right student (one wanting a one-semester exposure to the art and architecture of Italy, and to the Renaissance, but with no need for language study or grad. school plans involving it.)</p>
<p>ICCS-Rome has NO language requirements (I think you are thinking of 30 years ago). Most of the (excellent!) program has been given over to the study of Latin and Greek antiquities. You can take elementary Italian, though there is no regular Italian faculty (there are no intermediate or advanced classes, and no classes taught in Italian.)</p>
<p>Your posts imply that you aren't able to apply for financial aid if you apply early action or decision. This is not true.</p>
<p>The reason people who feel a need for financial aid are encouraged to apply regular decision rather than early is that it (supposedly) gives them a chance to utilize their competing offers to get their first choice school to raise its offer. Other than Princeton, you can already do this at Harvard and Yale. </p>
<p>I think most people applied early as a signal to the admissions office that they would likely attend if admitted.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I think most people applied early as a signal to the admissions office that they would likely attend if admitted.
[/quote]
Well, if it's ED, they're committed except with very strict exceptions.
If it's SCEA, I agree it's probably a signal of highly likely to attend.<br>
If it's "plain old" EA, though, I think it's very often (maybe even most often) a safety/safe-match school, to provide some calm and reduce the number of apps to only preferred schools. My S was an exception, as he preferred his EA school.</p>