NYT: High Anxiety of Getting into College

Parents Forum
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<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/08/nyregion/nyregionspecial2/08wecol.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/08/nyregion/nyregionspecial2/08wecol.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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Ms. Jones laughed, but she was serious about her message to the counselors (and, at a later meeting, to parents at Byram Hills High School): she is worried about the toll the application madness takes on today's children, whom she describes as the most anxious, sleep-deprived, steeped-in-stress, judged, tested, poorly nourished generation.</p>

<p>These teenagers, she said, are being raised to please adults and held to impossible standards. They are loaded down with A.P. classes and expected to participate in multiple extracurricular activities, demonstrate leadership, garner high SAT scores and, on top of that, have a passion, a buzzword in college admissions. It is ridiculous to expect that of them, Ms. Jones said. Most teenagers have no passions at all, except sex.

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<p>(Above quote is from Marilee Jones, MIT admissions director.)</p>

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Most teenagers have no passions at all, except sex.

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<p>This is not correct. Some of them are also passionate about computer games. Or House, M.D. In addition to sex.</p>

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<p>She can't really be talking about MIT nerds, can she?</p>

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She can't really be talking about MIT nerds, can she?

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"Most teenagers" aren't MIT nerds. ;)</p>

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<p>But MIT is one of the most selective schools in the country - what are they doing to reduce stress? Don't they want the "stellar" applicants more than the "average" ones? The qualifications of applicants seems to have changed drastically from when I was applying. I'd never even heard of APs when I was applying to college 20 years ago (OK - 21 - sheesh I'm getting old). My school didn't offer any. I doubt I'd get a second look from my alma mater today. Are colleges going to start telling kids that more than 2-3 APs/year will look bad on their applications? That more than 3 ECs are overkill? </p>

<p>"Her call to arms: reel in the pressure and start changing the culture. Parents need to back off. Children need downtime. High schools need to lower the pressure. Colleges need to be straight with teenagers."</p>

<p>Nothing really helpful here. Let the kids get enough sleep. Let them relax. They'll be great kids who just won't be attending MIT. At least that's what it sounds like to me.</p>

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<p>Oh, she is <em>so</em> talking about MIT nerds. And don't even <em>ask</em> how I know this. (Says the parent of the senior geek boy.....)</p>

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<p>Ms. Jones should get out in the world a bit. 70% of students get into their first choice college. 95% are satisfied with where they end up attending. Hundreds of colleges, including some pretty good ones, are begging for warm bodies who will pay the rent. More students are going to college, and to four-year colleges, than ever before. The average age of a U.S. undergraduate is 24.5. Most surveys indicate that the biggest block to a college education is not admissions, but the ability to pay for it. </p>

<p>Maybe the New York Times, being the New York City paper of record, should go interview students at Baruch, especially since it is likely that a large percentage of the folks in their fiscal section are Baruch graduates.</p>

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<p>The school I work at worries every year whether we'll get enough somewhat prepared bodies to cover the bills. They continue accepting all summer. It's rare for any student in my classes to have taken an AP. They have a billion things to be stressed about, but getting into college is low on the list for most of them. (Crime, poverty, stressed parents, sick relatives, unemployment, lack of insurance, etc etc). I'm not downplaying the stresses of kids trying to get into very selective schools, but I do agree that they are a minority of kids today, and there's a tendency to extrapolate them into something far more ubiquitous than they are.</p>

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<p>mini,</p>

<p>I used to feel reassured that the high-stress craziness only applied to the top-most level of schools, but it seems that even schools that were historically less selective are getting tougher to get in to. And when finances are a concern, a lot of the need-blind schools seem to be the most selective ones. It makes me worry that my kids will be at a definite disadvantage if their qualifications aren't what I would consider "over the top." And since I don't want them loading up on AP classes and burning out, where does that leave us? I guess we'll find out in a few years....</p>

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<p>Hey - I know the feeling. But I also know so many wonderful graduates of less selective schools in my state, including my hometown Evergreen, and Western Washington University, and know that, even with my limited income and wife's illness, we earn more than two-thirds of American families, can afford these options with just a little belt-tightening, and it will work out just fine. It actually leaves us (or at least my family) in fine fettle, and anything over that is gravy (how do ya like that for mixing metaphors?)</p>

<p>We are truly blessed. There are so many with less in the way of options.</p>

<p>(and the vast majority of college "freshman" are not 18-year-olds just out of high school.)</p>

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<p>I agree with her on one thing-- the hatred of kids showing a "PASSION" for the benefit of college admissions. Marian is right -- and on our son's behalf you can add food (any kind!) to the list.</p>

<p>The articles about super-competitive, stressed-out students and crapshoot admissions seem endless, but, do most people see this very much in real life? We live on Long Island, which is a supposed hotbed for this sort of thing, and it's been nothing like this. S's classmates have been very happy with their 'luck' in admissions this year, and haven’t had to bend over backwards to get there. Maybe they aimed reasonably, maybe it will be different for next year's class, but in general it's nothing like these articles portray. </p>

<p>That said, I DO think too much is expected of applicants – junior year testing a case in point-- SATs, SATIIs, APs, Regents. Ms. Jones wants to get the message out to guidance counselors and parents, but what about her colleagues in admissions? </p>

<p>These articles get our attention, and there's a new audience for them each year. I just wonder if these situations exist anywhere near as much as the author implies.</p>

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<p>Ms. Jones gave me a pip before they rejected my kid. More so now. My kid has a passion, it's not sex, it's actually something MIT is supposedly interested in, but it's their loss.</p>

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<p>This reporter is so lazy she spelled Marilee Jones's name wrong, twice. It is no wonder she couldn't be bothered to ask Jones about the apparent contradiction between what she preaches and what she practices.</p>

<p>from mathmom:

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Ms. Jones gave me a pip...more so now

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<p>I'm afraid I don't know the phrase "gave me a pip", but if it means a royal headache, a rise in blood pressure, and a nasty facial tic, I'm with you all the way.</p>

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<p>There are top schools that accept students whose stats are off the scattergram gridline. MIT is NOT one of them. Can you imagine a cruisy kid going to MIT? It's a laughable idea. MIT and Caltech have to have those super AP-Olympiad hardened students. No one else is up to their workload.</p>

<p>When MIT is known as the place "where fun goes to be crazy" instead of the place "where fun goes to die" ...then I'll buy what Ms. Jones is selling--or spinning as the case may be.</p>

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<p>There is no anxiety if your child chooses not to play the game.</p>

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<p>Uh, cheers, it's U of Chicago that the saying "where fun goes to die" refers to.</p>

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<p>Oh yes there is. My kid chose not to play the game, but still had the grades and GPA to make him viable. He had a passion which he exhibited both through work (and had stellar recommendations for it), and play. We were biting nails about how it would play out. The results were mixed, but ultimately he has two great choices, just not MIT. </p>

<p>I can say that I am glad he didn't make himself crazy in high school. He was not overextended. He didn't spend hundreds of hours doing things he didn't really want to do because they would look good on college applications.</p>

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<p>A lot of this is about where you live. I think some families who live in "big square states" just don't GET how much harder it is for kids from the DC to Boston corridor to get into top colleges. (Massachusetts public high school kids actually get a bit of a break from Harvard, which gives kids from its own backyard, especially public school kids, a bit of a preference. ) The emphasis on geographic diversity hurts ALL the kids who live in the DC to Boston corridor, especially the "hookless" kids. </p>

<pre><code> Years ago now, a colleague of mine visited UVa with his daughter. She went to a public high school in Westchester. The admissions officer admitted that the median SAT for Westchester Co. applicants accepted by UVa was 100 points higher than the median SAT for all OOS students! That's what you are up against.

If you look at the numbers, there are lots of kids from the Boston to DC corridor at top colleges. However, a lot of them are legacies, URMs (especially at colleges in NY which like getting HEOP kids, because of the extra funds involved) and recruited athletes, especially in the "prep" sports, e.g., field hockey, lacrosse, squash, etc. (A disproportionate % of those kids are boarding/independent school kids.)
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<p>Plus, while some of the public universities in this region are good, none of them are up there in reputation with UMichigan-AA, Berkeley, or UVa. </p>

<p>All of this just NATURALLY puts a lot more pressure on kids from this region. And it's going to get worse, as the % of internationals grows and top colleges increasingly reach out to Middle America (in the geographic sense) to try to get them to think about applying. It's not just harder for kids from the Boston to DC corridor to get into HYP, it's harder for them to get into schools much further down on USNews ranking list, especially Northeastern LACs. Heck, it's gotten to the point that schools like Carleton and Macalester are inundated with applications from "corridor kids" too. So, I think it's unfair to criticize kids for "playing a game." And, of course, the Boston Globe, NY Times, or Washington Post will write about this, since its kids and families in that region who are impacted most. </p>

<p>And I think Jones is FULL of it when she derides PASSION. I know one heck of a lot of teenagers--many of whom are NOT top students --who DO have genuine passions. Sometimes it's performing arts. Sometimes it's chess. Sometimes, it's sports. Sometimes it's community service--some of these kids have causes they really, really believe in. Sometimes it's scientific research. Sometimes it's robotics. There are an unlimited number of possible passions. </p>

<p>YES, there are kids who FAKE such passions. But most kids with passions really are passionate about what they do. And the ones that are keep right on doing them after they start college.</p>

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<p>It is amazing to look back on the process I went through and I wonder how I avoided all of the stress of this process. I took the classes I wanted to take in high school (and I lost the valedictorian spot because of), I did the ECs I wanted to do, which was basically only sports, nothing else. And then when I applied I did all of my applications in a week, sent them in the day before they were due, and never even considered them afterwards (I didn't know you could update your application after you sent it in). And then I got into the school I wanted to get into and decided that day which school I was going to without a second thought. AND I live in the DC to Boston corridor.</p>

<p>Man, I lucked out. And guess which school I ended up going to in the end. MIT, with Ms. Marilee Jones herself.</p>

<p>"Her call to arms: reel in the pressure and start changing the culture. Parents need to back off. Children need downtime. High schools need to lower the pressure. Colleges need to be straight with teenagers." This describes me perfectly. Maybe I'm a product of the Jones philosophy.</p>

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<p>I'm just wondering what "harder" means (regionally). Is that relative to the previous admissions numbers from NE students, to desired U's in the NE area? Or is it relative to some supposed favoritism toward students from all other regions than the NE? I don't know that we have actual comparative statistics on that. It may <em>appear</em> that students from other regions are getting some preferential treatment, whereas in reality it may be that (WOW!) they're actually now equally included in the national mix, for a change. For decades the NE students had, if anything, an advantage in admissions -- if for no other reason than the knowledge base that the colleges had regarding the high school preparation, and especially the long history of relations between the NE high schools & the NE colleges.</p>

<p>I think what some from that region may be concluding is somewhat misleading. That is, all metro regions with dense student populations are impacted by the shift toward geographical diversity. While (for example), the State of Texas has enjoyed a boost in admissions to Elites in the last couple of years, it also has a huge student population which has required doubled-up scheduling in some urban areas, such as was true in the Baby Boom years of the mid '60's. Typically, tiny fractions of students get admitted to Elites from the heavily populated centers, including the West Coast. A lot tinier than some may realize.</p>

<p>We are not from the NE. Yet less than 15 students from a well-educated, hugely populous metro region (a similar "corridor") were admitted in the early round to one illustrious Ivy a couple of years ago.</p>