NYT: On Campus, Failure is on the Syllabus

Why has this thread devolved into a comparison of numbers? It doesn’t matter if an excellent score is 30 or 80 or 90. Only two things matter: did they learn the material required (pass or fail) and how did they compare to others taking the test (percentile). It doesn’t matter if the score is out of 10 or 100 or 1000.

The obsession with top colleges has terribly distorted the HS experience for the top kids in school. There are a few kids in D18’s school that are in the running for Val. They’re consumed with tricks. For example, they’ll take online AP classes throughout the year to bump up their GPA … and won’t tell anyone so that their competitors won’t bump up their AP count in response. Cheating is rampant (we wonder how many parents are taking these online classes).

There’s no “quality” in the learning, either. My first experience with this was back in a Spelling Bee when D was in ES. Kids were spelling all these huge words. I was thinking “wow”. D was a natural speller and stayed in until the extra innings, when they stopped using the “word list”. What happened? Kids started dropping like flies on relatively simple words. It finally dawned on me that those kids were “schooled” in taking Spelling Bees and had been grilled with the word list by their parents (that “schooling” involved using obvious delay tactics, “can you give me the definition” and “can you use the word in a sentence” while they were trying to piece together the word from memory). I bet most of the kids didn’t even know what the words meant. It wasn’t a test of vocabulary, it was a test of hollow preparation.

I saw that same thing at a science exhibit during last year (D was a junior). A kid was talking about the project and using all the right terminology. Part of it happened to be something I knew about so I asked a simple question, “why did you use [that color space]?”. I was actually leading him into the real meat of the project … but there was no answer. I would have expected the opposite to occur with a kid: screw up some details but understand the point of the exercise.

Is this part of the problem? Kids feeling “hollow” because they are jam-packed with details and tricks but not overall knowledge?

@droppedit: Yes. For too many parents and kids caught up in that culture, this is a big game with learning and development of natural talents not being the objective.



It’s a little crazy, though. Nobody gives you brownie points for being val/sal after HS. People especially don’t care how you did in a grade school spelling bee.

When I look at the CDS for top colleges I see many of them with a “Very Important” rating assigned to “Class Rank”, so it seems like those ratings are important.

I also see many posts on CC saying how getting state, national, or international recognition in competitions is important. My spelling bee example is just an early example of some of the shenanigans that go on. The science exhibit is a more relevant example.

Unfortunately, getting into the most popular super-selective schools demands that as a way of standing out among other applicants with top-end academic credentials, unless one has an unearned attribute that is valued by the school like relation to a large donor.

It is probably related to the increasing Gini (getting closer to winner-take-all) nature of the economy, so that eliteness is valued, while ordinary levels of achievement are devalued. In such an environment, fear of downward mobility among the non-elite increases, so the desire to reach eliteness increases.

@droppedit: On the one hand, yes. There are elite schools that are loathe to take anyone outside the top 10% of a regular HS, for instance (and almost never do).



But I don’t think they put a premium on val/sal, just like getting a 36 on the ACT doesn’t give you a big lift over 35.

And I don’t think all that scheming like online AP classes that don’t tie in to a coherent application actually does the applicant much favors in the eyes of elite college adcoms.



Plus, we see applicants who do win those awards get denied. Not saying that adcoms are perfect, but I do believe that they are looking to admit promising people, not numbers or resumes.

@droppedit I just brought up grading scales because the article made it sound like kids who had never been challenged in high school were vulnerable to depression when they got to college and weren’t the stars of the class any longer. I was suggesting that high schools with inflated grading scales maybe don’t prepare those kids for the kinds of tests given in college. If they are used to tests where they can get every question correct, then it’s possible that they don’t even know how to study for a test that has a very low median score. So many times that means the kids have to apply what they learned to types of questions they’ve never seen before. If they are used to calculus or bio tests where the questions are pretty similar to what they’ve done in class or for homework, then they won’t know how to prepare for a college level test where the questions are harder. That situation certainly makes the kids feel unprepared and could affect their psyche.

@homerdog Rather than kids who weren’t challenged in HS, I think it is the opposite. The kids who were in the top 5-10% of competitive schools are now among larger groups of like-talented kids, and now some of those have to be below the average for the first time in their lives. Some of those kids have a hard time dealing with that.

A little over a year ago a freshman at Carnegie Mellon killed himself in the basement of a dorm. The daughter of a co-worker of mine knew the boy as two were classmates at both CMU and Stuyvesant H.S. in NYC. She didn’t know the boy well, but she knew him in passing. I have a hard time believing that graduating from Stuyvesant leaves a kid unprepared (academically) for college.

I do think the stress coming from trying to live up to unrealistic expectations, whether or not those expectations are true expectations or merely perceived, is a major contributor to the depression we see in kids today.

Brown hints at such (but does not explicitly say so), since they list val/sal separately from top 10% in terms of admit rates. Also note the ACT table.
https://www.brown.edu/admission/undergraduate/explore/admission-facts

@homerdog and @jrm815 – I don’t think this stuff starts in college. It may just be that the extra stress in college you mention ends up tipping kids over the edge. I see others falling far earlier (probably they’re the ones most susceptible so the stress manifests earlier). We know of at least two girls who have been hospitalized for “cutting” in 8th and 9th grade (we were lucky our D didn’t fall that far). There are many things happening at that age, physically and mentally, but that’s also when the final sorting takes place: kids going into the “accelerated math” track, meeting with GCs for scheduling, etc. College starts to dominate everything. I like this part of the article: College admissions mania, in which many middle- and upper-class students must navigate what Ms. Simmons calls a “‘Hunger Games’-like mentality” where the preparation starts early, the treadmill never stops and the stakes can feel impossibly high..

I don’t think it’s a case of kids who had it easy in HS having trouble with the more difficult material in college. I don’t think it’s the “everyone gets a trophy” thing either (that only applies to the lower-level kids). For the top kids, I think it’s the result of long term stress from having to be “perfect” in HS to get into those colleges.

As I recall, the ACT is scored so the AVERAGE for any given year is defined as 25 or thereabouts - for that year. The scores are then fit into a bell curve so that a 30 is so many standard deviations above, a 33 is more, and a 36 is like 5 or six standard deviations above the mean.



Do some schools try to game the ACT? Doubtless.



Is the ACT “easy” or “difficult?”. That’s a nonsense question. It’s supposed to be an assessment, it isn’t normally an entrance exam - just one of several things considered, right alongside “did your dad endow a chair and donate a building,” and “just how famous are you?”

@50N40W: Actually, the 50th ACT percentile score is 20.

I don’t think this is a case of actual failure so much as expecting/insisting on perfection which unfortunately is a tendency among too many topflight students from Stuy and schools like it speaking as a fellow Stuy alum.

This reminds me advice slightly older cousin who recounted receiving from her academic grandmother who had high academic expectations of her from K-12 right before she started undergrad at an Ivy:

“Unlike K-12, university will be much harder and you won’t always be able to get straight-As like you did from K-12. So long as you know you did your best, don’t beat up on yourself if you don’t get As or even do poorly in some classes.”

This pep talk from a respected older adult member/teacher would have helped a bit to tamp down the exceedingly high expectations such students have for themselves.

TLDR: We need to make it safe for kids to fail, to define failure properly and put it in its proper perspective. Repeated failure produces resilience, and resilience is key to health and success. We need to change our dialogue so that our kids become resilient, learning to embrace failure on their way to success.

Our son’s boarding school takes the fear-of-failure issue very seriously and has been studying its causes and effects for several years. A committee was set up to consider ways in which the school could purposefully stretch students to take the risks that would help them develop the grit and resilience necessary to put failure into its proper perspective so they could move beyond its debilitating limits. What started this investigation was what a separate endeavor had reported back to the school in its mission to find out what 21st century companies are looking for in young employees. The committee spent time at Apple and other leading-edge companies and found that academic success was not high on the list of what made for a compelling employee, instead resilience—the ability to see failure as a necessary part of finding solutions and to forge ahead confidently after each setback—was key. The companies certainly were looking for bright employees, but they require those employees to be able to embrace failure regularly as a spur to success. They’ve seen too many paper ponies contribute too little lasting value. The committee found that these companies were struggling as hard to find a reliable way to recognize this trait in applicants as much as our son’s school was finding a way to instill it.

The school already understood the grade grind and college rat race as it’s been in that business a long time. All its incoming students test high on the SSAT entrance exam and have top grades; it’s a cherry-picked student body on the incoming end and a very polished group on the graduating end. By definition, though, all of these high-achieving students will find themselves in the lower tiers of the class at some time during their years at the school, guaranteed. That first grade report is generally a shock to all as there is no grade inflation (it’s straight-scale, no makeups or curves or test corrections, etc.), and 50% of those “perfect” kids find themselves in the bottom half of the class right out of the gate. It’s a paradigm shift for many, including the parents, but understanding where the bar is set and learning that you will not always clear it is the first step on the path to resilience. That lesson is just embedded in the way these schools are set up. Dealing healthfully with that lesson is the tricky part.

What the school has tried to do is shift the conversation about the definition of failure. They talk about it with students a lot. They ask them what they would attempt if they knew they could not fail, and they set up opportunities for students to try those things and take shots at subject and activities, often sports, where the student has no prior experience. They believe that high school should be a safe time to experience trial and error, to examine what falling short means, and to discuss and take to heart the valuable lessons learned when performance lacks and where just getting up one more time may take them. The funny thing is that the students respond eagerly to these challenges and find relief in the discussions, but it’s often the parents who worry that such experiments are too costly in the current grade and college race. I’m guessing the school has a bigger challenge there.

This school does not have it all figured out, but it is changing its culture and its dialogue about success and failure and what it means to be truly educated and what the life stakes really are. It is making a serious institutional effort to enable students to take risks, fall short, dust themselves off, and look forward to the next attempt. I have been listening to their progress through parent meetings during our time there then e-mails and articles in the school bulletin and newspaper later. Most importantly, I’ve seen what this culture produced in our son from timid, risk-averse ninth-grader to confident, self-aware senior. I marveled that he took low grades (even a D, folks) in stride and counted how many more tests and assessments he had in that class to prove himself—not get an A, but prove himself–to himself. He also came to the school unfit with no sports experience at all. The school’s message made it safe for him to try something as relentless as crew, struggle mightily at the bottom of the heap, but with encouragement and perspective make it to the top of the varsity roster by senior year. He “failed” in the classroom and on the water over and over and over but, each time, the dialogue focused on what he wanted to achieve and how each failure meant one step closer to getting there or, at least, getting to his personal best. Failure isn’t about ability; it’s about giving up. Success is getting up and trying again. That was the relentless message.

As to the concern that encouraging these risks can be too costly in the current college race, the school also does a very good job at helping students (and parents) understand that a great high school education, not any particular college result, is what they are all about; when the high school education is stellar and the student is resilient, college will take care of itself. When students and parents understand that there are scores and scores of fine colleges and every one of their students will end up at one of them, students can relax and take those risks that instill resilience and arm them best for success, however they define it.

@purpletitan@50N40W: Actually, the 50th ACT percentile score is 20.”

Except on cc: where the average is about 31 or 32. lol

@ucbalumnus “It is probably related to the increasing Gini (getting closer to winner-take-all) nature of the economy, so that eliteness is valued, while ordinary levels of achievement are devalued.”

The winner-take-all economy increasingly means that being in the middle makes you a loser. Currently, the top 1% in the US have more wealth than the bottom 90% combined. If current trends continue, kids growing up today will be the first group who will, on average, not be able to even maintain the lifestyle of their parents. This puts more stress on parents and kids to work hard not to get rich, but just to maintain their standard of living and to avoid being poor. Essentially, they are running to stand still.

@droppedit “I don’t think this stuff starts in college.”

Clearly not.

One big driver related to the winner-take-all economy is the difficulty of being admitted into the a top 50 college is higher every year. We don’t even need to discuss the craziness of top 10 schools any more. That is especially true if the student is applying for a major with better income prospects like engineering, computer science, or business. For example, Lehigh and Bucknell, not exactly household college names for most people, are down to 24% admission rates. That’s just crazy!

It is pretty simple just don’t put padding around the kids and they are bound to fail at something…whether it is a sport or not sitting first chair. I am scratching my head trying to figure out how kids could possible get to college without failing at something somewhere along the line.

Mental illness starts to manifest itself in the college years. I wonder how much of the ‘extreme stress’ stories are related.