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Quite a few “career” women have been intimidated by this fact and the truth behind it.</p>
<p>3girls3cats–I agree more with your post #20, and think that is very useful point of view. If the issues that are limiting the number of female partners in the top law firms, CEOs, CFOs, etc. were resolved, I think we would also see a change in the composition of the STEM professoriate.</p>
<p>Among faculty, though, STEM is a bit unusual in the underrepresentation of women. If you take a look at the web sites of the departments of history and mathematics at Harvard, you will see quite a difference in the male:female ratios. Forty years ago, history at Harvard looked very much like mathematics at Harvard does now, in terms of the composition by gender.</p>
<p>STEM does seem to be unique in its “unbalance” here, and I do not think it’s “harder”.</p>
<p>I approach this subject as a parent (which is why I posted it in the Parent Forum) of a high school daughter who enjoys and is very good at, math and science. Who thinks right now she’d like to go to college and major in the general group of disciplines we call “STEM”. </p>
<p>Who will likely face many of the obstacles and attitudes outlined in the NYT article. Who is already, in fact, facing them to a degree. This is a kid who is acutely aware that she is one of very few women taking advanced Chem in HS, for instance. Who should and probably will take advanced Physics, but will be in an even smaller group of women. And this is just high school.</p>
<p>What will it mean for her to pursue these things in college and career beyond?</p>
<p>OHMomof2: For your daughter, it means that she will probably be the “first woman” in some categories–although I had hoped that all of the “firsts” would be accomplished already, by this generation. </p>
<p>If your daughter can deal with being one of the few women in her classes (especially in physics, engineering, and some of the advanced math classes), I think she will do fine! I had this experience 30+ years ago. I think it may be slightly better now, because your daughter is likely to encounter at least a few women professors in STEM subjects–I had zero women professors in STEM, and only 2 in my undergrad career overall, out of about 60 courses. At the graduate level, attention tends to focus on one’s own research group–so there are smaller numbers of people usually, and one doesn’t feel like such a minority. Actually, at the grad level, I had one woman in the group a year ahead of me, and one woman the year behind me, of a total of about 12-14 Ph.D. students at any given time. As a post-doc, I was one of two women post-docs out of 4 or 5–so that was a really high representation of women.</p>
<p>It is indeed hard–but it can be done, and it can be done while having a family, too.</p>
<p>ClassicRockerDad - very interesting read, thank you. Kind of makes me want to tell her to run screaming from engineering and academia - STEM or not - as a career ;)</p>
<p>Quantmech, I appreciate your thoughts. “If your daughter can deal with being one of the few women in her classes” - she was NOT OK with it in middle school, she seems OK with it now. Hopefully she is still OK with it in college if she decides to go that way.</p>
<p>Interesting perspective.</p>
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<p>and a big hmmm…</p>
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<p>She was Secretary of State and in line to the Presidency. That appreciably better than spending 30 years scribbling down calibration settings in a notepad hoping for a tenure slot to open up somewhere at a direction U.</p>
<p>As a female college student who is the gender minority in more than 80% of her current courses and has two classes where girls make up less than 1% of the class, I do not understand, to an extent, the wringing of the hands about the thought of a girl being “of the minority” in her classes. </p>
<p>So far, it’s not that bad! The guys find it amusing. On the first day of class it served as an icebreaker. It got us all chatting, waiting to see if the next person to walk in would be a girl. I sit near the front of class surrounded by guys. I am not heckled nor am I ignored. I am just another student in an advanced science course.</p>
<p>In my high school science and math courses, the girls were generally leading or at the front of the pack. They, generally, asked questions more than the guys. There was a larger percentage of girls getting the highest grades than the percent of the guys getting the highest grades. This is no different in my current college courses. The girls are pushing forward and succeeding. They are competitive not only with girls, but with the guys. </p>
<p>A little adversity doesn’t hurt.</p>
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She had done exceptionallynot just for a woman, but a woman of color at that.</p>
<p>I just read the New York Times piece. I was much more fortunate in terms of my undergrad adviser than Eileen Pollack was. Actually, I am shocked by her experience.</p>
<p>It will take me a long time to go through the elements of the NYT piece, but I will PM you with some comments on a gradual basis, OHMomof2. Overall, I would say that I think your daughter is less likely to experience discouragement than the article would suggest.</p>
<p>STEM professorships pay reasonably well, but they are not particularly remunerative when comparisons are made with the incomes of people in law, business, and medical specialties. By this, I mean that if you compare someone who is (say) in the top 10% of physics professors with someone who is in the top 10% of lawyers, the physics prof will very probably have a significantly lower income. On the other hand, though not so remunerative, STEM professorships are tremendously rewarding.</p>
<p>Sorry I edited out the Condi Rice stuff and two of you replied to it. For anyone following, here’s what I had quoted:</p>
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<p>Quantmech I appreciate it. I have no idea if D would like to do math or science in an academic setting, she may just as easily major in econ or stats or engineering or go into some kind of pre-health field…or change her mind completely - she’s only just turned 16. </p>
<p>But as we embark upon this whole college thing, it’s something to consider. </p>
<p>Niqui I appreciate your insight also.</p>
<p>My niece has an UG and Masters in EE and CS. She’s worked for more than 5 years for a multinational tech company and is the only woman, and one of 3 non-Asians, in her division of about 200 people. </p>
<p>She’s faced a number of issues in leadership roles, some of which may be attributable to cultural differences of women in society in this country vs. other countries. However she’s had nothing but support and encouragement from upper management (all men). They are currently paying for her MBA and put her on a management track. Her main complaint is that due to long work hours most of her social interactions involve people from work. Hopefully things will improve when she begins the MBA.</p>
<p>I never had any issues as a female engineering student. In some classes, I was the only girl. In one of those classes, the “new crop” of male graduate students walked in the door one January. I wasn’t too impressed with them, but one of them “cleaned up good” and ending up being my husband. The profs and male students were all great - I was just one of the gang.</p>
<p>I did encounter one hostile draftsman at my first job, but he was the exception. If I had been older when I had to work with him, I probably would have reported him to HR.</p>
<p>Engineering is still a lucrative and promising career. I’d recommend it to my kids. Science is every bit as tough as Mr. Greenspun said it was in the link I posted. There is a world of difference between science and engineering. </p>
<p>My D1 befriended a graduate student in Chemistry who is basically enslaved by his professor and is miserable. D has a more lucrative major and is going to work for a while before considering grad school.</p>
<p>I really don’t know enough about engineering to be much help to D, other than to point her towards friends of mine who are engineers (now that I think on it, all male).</p>
<p>But
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<p>Ack.</p>
<p>But that women was looking for an academic job. Being an engineer in industry can be lucrative, interesting, and these days can strike a good work-life balance.</p>
<p>Good to know. The handful of engineer friends I have do seem to enjoy it.</p>
<p>Academic jobs and engineering jobs vary extremely. Engineering jobs are easier to find than most other careers. I am not loosing sleep over my ability to get a job after graduation. Just this past week there have been 8 new postings to my university asking for upcoming/recent graduates.</p>
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My understanding is that Summers never posited an S-curve, or considered that it could be a good model for the data. Further, he never really delved into the ever-shrinking differences between men and women at the super-high end of tests, IQ, and achievement.</p>
<p>There are more and more examples of women rising to the CEO level in business. They get almost no publicity in the mainstream media because their stories get in the way of the victimhood narrative, and , I believe, many of them are not supportive of that idea or the proposed “remedies to it”. Most of them have had struggles in their marriages in terms of sorting out the roles of the spouses. Most of them have an educational background which requires elite intellectual skill. </p>
<p>The reality is that there are great sacrifices in rising to the top of any field. Women traditionally hold great responsibility in areas that directly conflict with making those sacrifices. Its not easy for men, and its even less easy for women. I’m not sure that’s going to change much soon.</p>