<p>UVAorBust, I am an admissions officer at MIT; hopefully this last post answered most of your questions. </p>
<p>I would briefly note that there are problems of prejudice that continue to affect racial and ethnic minorities that exist apart from poverty, and thus advise against conflating the two. </p>
<p>However, I can also tell you that we DO care about disadvantages of all kinds. I work very closely with our poor and first-generation-to-college students. We take their disadvantages into account as well. </p>
<p>I would also make the point that we do not take āless qualifiedā students because of their disadvantages. We do not admit students if they are not qualified for - which is to say prepared to succeed at - MIT. Period. </p>
<p>We admit students because they, in their entire context, present a compelling reason(s) to admit them.</p>
<p>@MITChris First of all I would like to thank you for your insight. What youāre saying makes a lot of sense and I will be applying as a multiracial applicant this fall. I do have one question though. According to the 2009 survey by the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education in 2008 the Black acceptance rate for MIT was 27% whereas the the overall acceptance rate was 11.9%. I was just wondering what exactly accounted for the huge disparity?</p>
<p>Thanks for the response. It is nice being able to talk to someone who is actually involved in the admissions department.</p>
<p>One thing in your response really struck me. When you say āthere are problems of prejudice that continue to affect racial and ethnic minorities that exist apart from poverty, and thus advise against conflating the two.ā I canāt imagine what you could be talking about. I mean, obviously there have been racial hate crimes that have happened, but what percent of minorities that you accept have been the victim in one of these crimes. After attending a HS where nearly 50% of the students were minorities, I really didnāt see them face any discrimination or problems different than a Caucasian student. </p>
<p>For the acceptance rate to vary by 15%, it sure seems like there has to be a major reason why minorities would have such a higher chance of acceptance. </p>
<p>Also, when I used the term āless qualifiedā, I didnāt explain what I meant. Of course, every single student at MIT is intelligently gifted. However, what I did mean, was that students are being accepted with less qualifications because of their skin color. I canāt imagine what prejudice they currently face that makes it so much easier for them to be accepted to top schools such as MIT.</p>
<p>UVAorbust & almost there: perhaps the man from MIT will come back and answer that question, but I suspect those numbers you cite happen because any black student strong enough to get into MIT will also get into other top schoolsāand a fair share of them will decide for whatever reason to attend those other schools. so the university may āoveradmitā, so to speak, black students to enusre that at least enough will enroll to maintain the diversity that MIT seeks.</p>
<p>I would be interested in knowing from MIT Chris what the graduation rate is for URM students. From what I understand at many universities their graduation rate is lower than the rate for other groups, which would imply that those students are not as ready for the rigors of the university.</p>
<p>BigAppleDaddy, any student of any race at MIT could almost definitely get into any other top school. You have to be extremely qualified to get into MIT, no matter which race you are. </p>
<p>BigAppleDaddy, when you say āthe university may āoveradmitā, so to speak, black students to ensure that at least enough will enroll to maintain the diversity that MIT seeks.ā I understand what youāre saying. But for MIT, at what cost? Theyāre sacrificing racial equality to ensure diversity. What Iām trying to hit is the fact that some applicants are being accepted over those more qualified because of their skin color.</p>
<p>^ Thatās the problem. People like you think that they compare the applicants of URMs and Non-URM students. While I believe they compare apps by race(donāt quote me on this). Also, I believe Iāve read somewhere the number of black applicants was ~500. That means they admitted ~150 <ā Not that many students.</p>
<p>Weāve talked about this in the MITCC forum. There are a lot of reasons why, but the primary one is the very self-selecting nature of URM applicants to MIT. The very, very short version of the story is that there have been historically a dearth of African-Americans in STEM fields, and so those who are interested in STEM tend to be very good matches for MIT. The same can not necessarily be said of non-URM applicants, who may just throw more applications at MIT without being particularly good matches. </p>
<p>Put another way: a big part of the reason is that a a higher proportion of African-American applicants to MIT are more compelling matches. If you looked at non-URM students who were equivalently good matches, their acceptance rates would be much higher than 11.9%. Does that make sense? </p>
<p>@UVAorBust - </p>
<p>Itās not as simple a matter as hate crimes or overt prejudice. Itās a matter of continued systemic, structural disadvantage. </p>
<p>This is a discussion that is way, WAY too big for this thread; please excuse me for not going into something that would take books to fill. </p>
<p>The important thing to know is this: we are primarily concerned with contextualizing disadvantage, and not the source of that disadvantage, be it race, geography, income, gender, or something else. And I think that is true of most schools in practice. </p>
<p>@Tatin - </p>
<p>Our URM graduation rate is very close to our overall graduation rate. Again, all students at MIT - URMs, athletes, musicians, whoever - all have to meet the same standard of academic preparedness for admission.</p>
<p>woeishe, donāt turn this into a generalization game like youāre doing. Iām not quite sure what you mean by āpeople like youā. Do you mean people who like having an intelligent conversation instead of pointing fingers? If you care to comment on that please do. </p>
<p>And Iām not talking about the number of URMās admitted. Nowhere did I mention anything about there being an unfair NUMBER of URMās admitted. I said that the acceptance rate is very skewed. Even if only 5 URMās applied, and all five were let in with lower stats than someone who was not a URM (lets say an Asian), Iād still argue it was racial discrimination. Before you go off on your high horse, judging āpeople like meā, please read through all my posts.</p>
<p>Edit: Chris, sent you a PMā¦ Thanks for your help</p>
<p>But UVAorBust, āhigher statsā donāt necessarily matter. This is something we talk about in the MITCC forum a lot. </p>
<p>Put another way: we care about ānumbersā - meaning test scores - only to the extent that they predict success or failure at MIT. I donāt ever look at a student with a 2400 and think they are more qualified than a student with a 2300. I look at their scores, classes, grades, etc, and say, āok, can they do the work at MIT, will they contribute something to the intellectual environment.ā </p>
<p>Focusing on higher/lower āstatsā, rather than preparedness & contribution, is missing the forest for the trees. That goes for all of our applicants, URM or not.</p>
<p>Another thing UVA, say 5 URMs applied to MIT and all 5 got in. 500 asians applied and 100 got in. URM acceptance rate is 100% but Asian acceptance rate is 20%. Is it racial discrimination?</p>
<p>Woeishe, I think youāre still missing the point Iām trying to make. The numbers mean nothing to me. It is the stats that Iām talking about. But, for MIT I donāt think this is the case. As Chris said, the type of student applying to MIT is going to have a killer SAT/ACT, GPA, and everything else. So taking someone with a 2300 instead of a 2400 really means nothing. Once a student is at that level, scores donāt really matter. </p>
<p>Iāll just throw out an example of a student at my school from this year. He was always talking about the schools he was applying to. Harvard, MIT, Stanford just to name a few. Well, everyone thought he was the laughing stock of the school. Honestly, no one thought he had a shot (I knew of what AA could do for a student so I wasnāt as skeptical). He had a 3.2gpa (top 45%), 29 ACT, no sports, no major ECās. Well, when it came down to it, he was accepted to a top 10 school. The thing that really caught me was that he really thought he got in based solely upon his own merit. Now, seeing the other 15 students who applied to the school get denied with substantially better profiles, I was shaken. This is one example where Iām just going to go out and say it; I truly believe he was accepted because of his skin color alone. His profile was just so substantially lower than what the schoolās average was. He wasnāt a part of questbridge or anything. Iām happy he got into the school as I was a good friend with him all through HS and still am, though I HIGHLY doubt he will be able to perform at the same level as the others who had significantly better, well, everything.</p>
<p>Iām off to go play squash. Iāll respond when I get back later.</p>
<p>Also is it actually okay to write your essay about your racial experiences? I donāt want to sound whiny or like my race is the only thing that defines me.</p>
<p>I obviously donāt know the specifics of the case, and I wonāt attack or defend accordingly. But I will say this: there are a lot of students who may seem unimpressive based on any number of easily apprehended characteristics of their application. But as admissions officers, we spend a lot of time on cases beyond just numbers OR just race. </p>
<p>Without going into detail, I know of students who would not, on the basis of these ātoplineā things (the sort of data that would be shared in a chance me thread on CC), seem that amazing, but who might be pretty special when their entire application is viewed in context. Maybe the kid had killer LORs. Maybe a terrific interview. Maybe s/he met an institutional priority for the college. </p>
<p>College admissions arenāt clear-cut things. Itās a very big mess of information that we spend a lot of time sorting out. There are huge informational asymmetries. </p>
<p>Again, I donāt know how or why the decision was made. But as I always say in MITCC - no one but the adcoms, looking at the entire case in front of them, can make sense of a particular application. Itās always good to be skeptical and questioning, but there are good reasons why some apparently nonsensical decisions can make sense too! </p>
<p>@almost there - </p>
<p>Itās absolutely OK but itās by no means necessary. We donāt have expectations of that kind. And sometimes kids donāt perceive disadvantage in their life, or donāt particularly identify with what another external observer might view as their race or ethnicity. </p>
<p>Do what you feel best. Just be honest and earnest with us and yourself.</p>
<p>BigAppleDaddy, I read the article and I didnāt get the impression that this young woman was confused as to what she felt she was, but rather she was confused as to what to put on her college applicationā¦there is a difference.</p>
<p>@MITChris, I couldnāt have replied better myself. I totally agree. My daughter, who was a mediocre high school student at best, was accepted into a univeristy that only accepted 1900 applications out of 20,000. Iām confident that it was a total combination of her essay, extra curricular activities, volunteer work outside of school and her race (which is black) along with her collegeboard scores and high school transcript that allowed this acceptance. The fact that her GPA was below a 3.0 and her ACT and SAT scores werenāt exceptional proves to me further than it takes more than a whiz kid to get into a good college.</p>
<p>@UVAorBust, were you privy to his your black friendās college apps? Did you read his essays? Although you may be correct that he got into a top school because heās black, unless you were privy to his HS transcript, SAT/ACT scores, Essay, Interview results, volunteer hours, etc., how can you come to that conclusion?</p>
<p>I know in some schools that donāt quite offer the financial aid packages like Harvard, often times coming from a poorer background can wind up being a cause for dropping out. Not having enough money to complete school, having to work longer hours to make ends meet, having to leave to take care of sick family, etc. are all the types of problems that would hit lower income students more than higher income students. And which population has a higher percentage of lower income students? URMs.</p>
<p>Letās say you have two males in high school. Both apply to the same selective university. One is black; the other is Asian. Both share very identical characteristics: 28 ACT, 3.8 GPA. Top 10 percentile rank, same AP classes taken, 100 hours at local hospital, Latin Club Vice President, both are shy students-teacher recs were nothing special, essays are both decent; but neither were risky or personal. Black student is the son of a stock broker and doctor. Asian kidās parents are immigrants; Combined parent income is 20-30K. </p>
<p>I donāt have to say anything else. We all know who would get in and who wouldnāt.</p>
![http://www.jbhe.com/features/61/enrollshirankeduniv.gif[/url]](http://www.jbhe.com/features/61/enrollshirankeduniv.gif%5B/url%5D){kind=link}
