NYU debt. Please Advise.

Parents Forum
1

<p>Hi guys,</p>

<p>I really need some help. </p>

<p>My girlfriend (who I obviously care about) is attending NYU and is financing 100% of her education and I’m losing sleep over it because I feel she is headed for a HUGE disaster.</p>

<p>She is older than 25, transferred from another school, and I predict she will have roughly 7 semesters (ie 3.5 years) worth of debt racked up by the time she is done. She has already finished 4 semesters. Furthermore, she is majoring in the College of Arts & Science, has a good science major but does not have any concrete ideas of a career post graduation.</p>

<p>My prediction is that her debt will be anywhere as low as 140 K (i.e. 40K * 3.5 years) to 245K (ie 70K * 3.5 years). I don’t really know the details b/c she just does not feel comfortable discussing them with me. But, my guess would be that she will be somewhere in the middle, like around 200K. Plus, I think she may have a few grand in credit card debt, but not sure exactly. From poking around the internet, I think that that the interest rates are around 6.8-7.5% on most of the loans (i.e. private and federal). The amount that NYU has given her in grants minimal – just a few grand a year!</p>

<p>Q1: Are these assumptions correct?</p>

<p>My gut feeling is that she will be BUST even if she gets a top job (ie paying 60K) – which I doubt. She’s a good student – but not outstanding. Plus she does not have many extracurricular activities or that killer instinct to go for the high pay / high stress jobs. Even if she doesn’t go bust, I think she (and maybe me) will have to live a CRAPPY life for a LONG LONG TIME. </p>

<p>Q2: Am I being unreasonable here? I’ve ran through soooo many scenarios, and all of them lead to doomsday! </p>

<p>I guess you can say that I am VERY frustrated at both HER (and her parents) and NYU. I’m UPSET at her because she did NOT listen to my advice on considering a more affordable school. Furthermore, she really did not make an effort to hunt down scholarships even though I recommended that she should really spend 2 weeks and go crazy with this. I am 110% certain that she could have gotten scholarships for her situation. I think she tried to get them, but I think she got discouraged when she could not find them easily. Plus, the financial aid office / people at NYU are bastards, and did not help her out at all. Finally, her parents are just not very involved in her life at all, so she basically suffers from “bad/no parenting.” So instead, she focused on getting a job (she found one that works well for her), but I think it was a big mistake b/c now she’s got some serious debt. I’m not trying to stick up for her, because I’m ****ed off at her! But I think that is why she didn’t listen to me.</p>

<p>I’m upset at NYU because they will basically RUIN her life (and possibly mine if we continue to be involved). NO UNIVERSITY should allow students to take on such debt! Or there should be laws that say, “We CANNOT ACCEPT YOU to our school unless you get X amount in scholarship on your own because you will BE BROKE!” I personally think that NYU should be sued. </p>

<p>Q3: Do you guys agree? Would you guys be frustrated by this situation? </p>

<p>Perhaps I’m just freaking out b/c I went to a good state school in the midwest, paid my way through, and graduated school with a small savings! Now I work in NYC and make >100K and I am BARELY scraping by trying to live a half way decent life! I know that I could NOT pay for those loans if I had them, esp since they are on an after-tax basis. I’m just so upset that I don’t know what to do. </p>

<p>Whenever I bring up the topic, she just says, “I’m not worried at all – everything will be OK.” I told her clearly that “I WILL NOT pay for your loans because I don’t agree with your choices,” and she knows that loud and clear. I don’t think she is the type of girl who would be using me, but perhaps I’m blinded right now by the emotions. Or perhaps she is using me subconsciously, and doesn’t even know it. She has told me that she WILL pay off her student loans, but perhaps that means getting a job and just paying for the loans and nothing else. </p>

<p>The bottom line is that I WANT to believe her, but I just don’t think it will be OK. </p>

<p>Q4: Will it be OK? CAN it become OK? I just can’t help but have a doomsday scenario repeat in my head. I would LOVE to hear anyone on this post who feels otherwise. I can just see it now….peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for all!</p>

<p>I have repeatedly tried to talk about this with her, but she doesn’t feel comfortable talking about it. She does a good job at dodging the questions, because she really doesn’t have any concrete answers. </p>

<p>Q5: We’ve been dating on and off (mostly on) for about 1.5 years, and I think we should be able to discuss this sort of stuff. But again, maybe that is just me. I’m curious to know what others think. Maybe I should just go and give her a good shake up before the school year starts? I don’t know what I would say though without sounding like an overly negative bastard. How do I be supportive, yet frank? I feel that she has messed up her life SO badly so far feel like saying, “Get a scholarship for next year, or else….” But that is not a healthy/mature way of dealing with a situation. Perhaps it is the only way though. I just don’t know. </p>

<p>Again, maybe this is all just me. I hope so. I will seriously consider changing my views if many others agree.</p>

<p>MANY MANY THANKS for your help</p>

2

<p>I agree that NYU can create a disaster scenario due to the debt it requires that many students take on, and I agree that it feels criminal, but they are allowed to do it. We did the math for my kid who was accepted to NYU Tisch --but had to turn them down because he had near full-rides elsewhere, and we calculated the debt would have buried him to the end of time. My other kid was accepted to NYU with scholarships that equalled full tuition (as I recall, it was a few years ago) but he turned them down for an Ivy that gave him just as much. How can it possibly be worth the debt?</p>

3

<p>Hmmmm... she's over 25. She knows the score. She's willing to give it a shot. Is it financially smart? Probably not. Is she being realistic? Probably not. </p>

<p>Is it really your problem? Probably not. Are you too involved/controlling in this situation? My hunch is 'yes.'</p>

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<p>Might be time for you to start dating others.</p>

5

<p>There is a coming admissions bubble, that will be as devastating as the housing bubble and I predict that when the private college tab breeches $50,000 per year the crash will come. It amazes me that people who would bargain over the last $2000 in closing costs on a house or $1000 on a car, are willing to build bonfires of $100 bills for a college. I am incredulous when I see middle class families with no defined benefit pensions load themselves and/or their children with high five or even six figure debt.</p>

<p>Everyone always points to financial aid. But loans are not aid and they merely defer the cost. The key to financial aid is to have 50% of the class pay full boat tuition and fees that are then redistributed to the other 50% in Robin Hood like aid. The fees have simply reached the point now, that even high six figure income families with substantial home equity cannot foot a $50,000 bill each year for four years. The yield rates of all these "hot college" and "new Ivies" are going to plumment in the not too distant future as families begin to see what high five figure debt does to ruin the lives of young people. Eventually common sense will overtake media generated hype as people watch the twenty and thirtysomethings of today founder with education debt even as they build very respectable careers.</p>

<p>My opinion is that if you have to borrow substsantial amounts of money for a school, it is just not worth it in most cases unless you talking about a top 10 MBA, top 40 law school, medical school or something truly extraordinary like a school that lets you take class with a past Head of state or Nobel Prize winner.</p>

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<p>For both your sakes, date others.</p>

<p>No adult woman deserves to be hammered like this by her boyfriend. None. If you don't like the situation, then don't merge finances with her. Tell her, if the situation warrants it, that no marriage until you are both financially stable. No woman deserves to be berated like a bad wife without the benefits of marriage. Want to continue complaining? Get her a ring. </p>

<p>There are also men who would understand that a quality education is a wonderful thing; that someone with a bachelor's degree will make about a million more over her lifetime; that there are some things worse than debt; and will understand that NYU does not cost $70,000/year. Those men might be a tad more supportive of your girlfriend than you.</p>

<p>Furthermore, NYC is expensive. I know this. I've lived in cities. However, if you are "scraping by" on $100,000/year, then YOU are the one with financial issues. Many of my friends make much less than that and manage quite well. They either share 1 bedroom apartments among 2 people; live in Brooklyn; live in tiny apartments; don't have cars; or whatever. </p>

<p>I do not think that your girlfriend is making wise choices. Then again, I'm not her. In retrospect, knowing then what I know now, I would have, if necessary, paid the $160,000 of my undergrad. I really shudder to think what would have happened to me had things been different. </p>

<p>A bit of girl advice: treating her like an idiot will only entrench her in her decision. If you EVER want her to change her mind, you better learn how to lay off. </p>

<p>I'm being harsh, but your girlfriend's loans are none of your business. If you don't like it, don't marry her, but you sound like you're beating her over the head with it.</p>

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<p>I'm with Ariesathena on this; Mathguy you appear to be inappropriately controlling and overly involved in this woman's personal business. Even more extraordinary, you are posting her personal financial details on the internet. And while NYU doesn't appear to be the most attractive choice for ANYONE from a financial perspective, this young woman's financial decisions are hers, and hers alone. Same with everyone else who attends that school. She doesn't owe you any explanation whatsoever, and she certainly does not have any obligation to consider your opinions. </p>

<p>You posted that she said she's "not worried - everything will work out". In my experience, people who approach life with optimism (combined with realistic planning) and expect things to "work out" tend to get positive results: things do, indeed work out for them; people who expect doom, gloom and disaster tend to get exactly what they expect, too. There's a saying: "leap, and the net will appear"; while not always applicable to financial decisions, it's interesting how often those who leap do indeed not only find lots of nets everywhere, but also that those nets are never necessary!</p>

<p>It sort of seems that you would be better suited in a relationship where the other person is debt-free, and more receptive of your examination of them under your personal microscope, and more compliant of your demands, so, I too would advise dating others - although, I'd speculate that young women who fit this category probably don't have - and are not pursuing - college educations.</p>

<p>One last thought: your statement "should I go give her a good shake up" is troubling. Even in a committed, legally sanctioned relationship, the prospect of one partner considering, let alone committing to writing, giving the other a "good shake up" strikes me as a precursor to abuse. You might want to take a step back and examine your own behavior. </p>

<p>If I have it all wrong and you are simply well-meaning but financially conservative (which is o.k. too), then, at a minimum, you might want to consider that you are probably going to be happier in life with a partner whose tolerance for risk in financial matters and use of credit is a bit more in line with your own.</p>

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<p>I don't see Mathguy as potentially abusive, and I am not certain he is even over controlling. What I do see is a guy involved with a woman with whom he is in disagreement about a serious financial matter.</p>

<p>MG, if the two of you are planning to marry, her debt load is of utmost importance to you, as it is no longer only her debt, but yours too. Under those circumstances, I can completely understand your stated angst and concern.</p>

<p>However, if this is a more casual girlfriend, you do need to lay off. I think taking on that kind of debt to attend NYU is ludicrous, but it isn't my decision or my life. You obviously agree that the debt load is ludicrous, but unless it impacts you personally, you basically have no input in her decision.</p>

<p>It's her life...her choices...and she will have to deal with the repercussions, whatever they may be.</p>

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<p>I also don't see this so much as a control issue as a looking into the future scenario. Many marriages break up over financial issues -- often one spouse who has no control over their spending habits. </p>

<p>Since this has been a long-term relationship, and you are both of an age where these things (like potentially getting married) start to matter, I'd read the writing on the wall and start dating. </p>

<p>Sorry to seem mercenary, but I would not want to "marry into" a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of debt. And make no mistake - the burden of it will fall on Mathguy one way or another.</p>

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<p>One thing I am not clear about this: Are young people with no jobs allowed to borrow $40k per year? Don't lenders ask for collateral? Is Mathguy just guessing about the amount of debt and sources of financing?</p>

<p>I agree with those who argue that if Math Guy is serious about marriage, he needs to consider his GF's financial liabilities because they will be his. It's absolutely wrong to say put a ring on her finger first then ask about the finances.</p>

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<p>well ...we were at a meeting where NYU told us that no accepted student would be kept out due to finances, in other words, the loans would be made available to everyone. "We will make this happen for you," the speaker said. I don't know if that's really true.</p>

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<p>Hi Guys,</p>

<p>Just to clarify - I have NEVER been abusive to a woman. In fact, it’s just the opposite. Well, I am in my 30's and yes - am thinking about the long haul. I think she is too, but I also know she has other priorities right now. What I mean as a good "shake up" is not a physically - but rather just being blunt about voicing "I think you're headed towards a landmine." </p>

<p>I am not just concerned for my own well being, but also for hers. The reason I'm posting this here is to get some opinions on how to brink this up in a nice and healthy way. </p>

<p>I agree that this can come across as being "overly involved." But I really feel like she has no one else to help her. I would be MORE THAN HAPPY to step aside here, but again I don't think she has people that will give her good advice. On the flip side, I do realize that ANYTHING I say regarding her personal finances may come across in a very biased way since we are dating.</p>

<p>I'm only involved with this issue because I care, and it could potentially have adverse effects on both our lives.</p>

<p>BTW, I would probably not keep this a secret and have always been honest with her (probably too honest...but that is another topic). I will probably show her my post - with everyone's comments (even the ones who think I'm a killer! LOL!).</p>

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<p>No point in blaming NYU on any of this. There are LOTS of places and people ready and willing to sell you TONS of stuff you can't afford. It's not just colleges. That's where being mature and responsible comes in.</p>

<hr>

<p>Marite, I have the same question as you. Are there lending sources that will loan you an endless amount of money without cosigners or collateral for education expenses?!</p>

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<p>I was wondering the same thing. I think it is possible from my understanding if you qualify as being "independent" or are over a certain age. I think this is meant to create opportunities for people like her, but it can also be a very dangerous situation. </p>

<p>I HOPE I'm wrong on this. I'm hoping that the private lenders will say, "OK - enough - we can't lend out more. " In that case, is NYU obligated to make up the difference in grants?</p>

<p>I completely understand that people routinely buy things that they cannot afford. But this is Education - not a fancy restaurant. My gf never splurges on things like luxury items, and can see why she want's to get a "quality education."</p>

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<p>"In that case, is NYU obligated to make up the difference in grants?"</p>

<p>No more than Macy's is obligated to sell you clothes that you need.</p>

<hr>

<p>'she want's to get a "quality education." '</p>

<p>We all would like to buy the highest quality stuff. But there are limits to most people's spending capabilities.</p>

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<p>The other thing about NYU is that she has tried to get help from NYU, but she says it is like going up to a Bank Teller and trying to take out a mortgage. I get the impression that they have little to no counseling on financing an education.</p>

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<p>So what would happen then? She would be forced to not complete her degree? That sounds very cold hearted for an institution of higher learning. My understanding is that schools usually do not want to put thier students in situations like this.</p>

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<p>In olden times, a man would marry without expectation that his wife would contribute income. If you were to marry upon her graduation, and she got a reasonably well paying job and every penny of her net pay went to this debt, the two of you could still find a way to survive on your 100K/yr. Yes, there'd be a lot of pb&j. no condo purchasing, no fancy vacations. Can you live with the resentment you'd feel? Do you love her enough to feel poor for the forseeable future? Would it poison your relationship?</p>

19

<p>I haven't read all the posts -- but felt I should weigh in on this.</p>

<p>I married my current husband over 20 years ago. He had racked up quite a bit in student loans when we married (I had none).</p>

<p>now -- 20 years later and 2 kids, we are still paying them off. they have affected our ability to buy an house and get a job. The interest keeps adding up and we can barely afford to pay the minimum (we do everything we can to get them paid off)</p>

<p>If I knew then what would be the affect, I would not have married someone with so much debt. he is a great guy, we work hard on the budget and watch every penny -- but that is what we have been doing for 20 years now and I really wish that money could go toward savings or retirement or a vacation instead of the student loans.</p>

<p>Just my 2 cents -- I would step out of the relationship. This will continue to be a significant problem (both the debt and her attitude toward money and accumulation of debt) that will affect you, your children and the jobs you can get.</p>

20

<p>Math_Guy, just to clarify, it was not intended to indict you as "abusive", but, rather, in the one-dimensional environment of a post, the phrase "give her a good shake up" raises a flag with serious strains of red. I do understand that how it came across in a post is not what you meant or intended. </p>

<p>Bottom line, it seems that your starting place is really to have more in depth discussions with this young lady, but, you have said she isn't really receptive to talking about it with you. To me, that sends a message: you will likely want to give some thought to what that might mean: either she's a very private person and doesn't want to share, or she's avoiding taking responsibility for very serious potential future problems, or, she doesn't have the depth of commitment to the relationship to involve you, at least at this time. </p>

<p>I do agree - it's impossible to see any way to disagree - that taking on that kind of debt for undergrad is probably not very smart, UNLESS there are circumstances that are simply not known. </p>

<p>Thanks to a healthy population of predatory lenders in the U.S., even persons with horrendous credit ratings and unimaginable debt to income ratios can get still more loans and additional access to credit, so, I don't think there's going to be a line in the sand here. </p>

<p>One last thought - if you are seriously considering marriage, why not suggest that the two of you go to a financial advisor together? That way, the matter becomes a scientific, strategic discussion supported by expert advice; she may be more receptive to this, and it may also help to resolve some of your concerns - OR it will provide her with a very serious wake-up call from an impartial, credentialed third party.</p>