<p>There are loan forgiveness programs for psychologists who work in high need areas. The same may be true for, e.g., Math/science teachers. My point is she may have a plan.</p>
<p>The bigger issue seems to be lack of mutual trust and openness around money, ok for casual daters but not if marriage might be in the near future.</p>
<p>The more I read about NYU the more I think it's just a big racket. </p>
<p>MG-I think you are really smart to be looking at this and asking questions. It sounds like you and she are fundamentally in different places. I second all of the good advice you have been given that it doesn't bode well for a committed relationship if you have this big a disconnect about money.</p>
<p>FWIW my first husband secretly resented the fact that I had student loans, even though I worked full time until our second child was born and I paid off my loans before quitting. And the amount was paltry, even adjusted for inflation. </p>
<p>Stay clear of this one--you are clear in your own mind what you want: you are 32, you want to settle down, and you have a fairly clear picture of what you want your life to be like. It's hard to start over in a new relationship, especially if you have internal messages telling you it's time to settle down and start a family, but staying in this relationship is like throwing good after bad--it's a sunk cost. Bail now and find somebody who shares the same values and is in the same place w/r/t security and settling down that you are.</p>
<p>Acinva: Unneccessarily condescending. Knock it off.</p>
<p>Rest: I've said that there's a difference between the message and the tone of the message. I'm taking issue with the tone.</p>
<p>I do not think that any woman who is trying to use someone for money says, "Yeah, fine, date other people." I've seen women use men for money, and they get their hooks into them. I'm also not sure how she could be using him for his money if this has been an issue from before the beginning.</p>
<p>Random question: where did I say that all men are jerks? Missed that part... oh, wait, it never happened.</p>
<p>MathGuy, while certainly under no obligation to, has not answered the question: "What do you want your girlfriend to do, here on forward?" The way I see it, there are three options:
-drop out of college completely (debt still outstanding from 2 years and worse job opportunities);
-drop out of NYU, have NYU debt from two years, transfer somewhere else (which has its own issues of probably having to repeat coursework and not saving much money, + missed opportunity costs from salary); or
-finish at NYU.</p>
<p>In any situation, two years of NYU debt remains. MathGuy, if you want the girl without the debt, that cannot happen, even right now... </p>
<p>...which is why I say that, when you complain about something, you should at least know what remedy you would like.</p>
<p>Remedy? Are we in the courts now?</p>
<p>Now Aries, if I imposed my will on her that WOULD be controlling. I'm not suggesting that she drop out of school, transfer, etc. At this point, I have accepted that the NYU debt is mostly water under the bridge. </p>
<p>I spoke to her today, and she knows Im frustrated. She told me shes looking into scholarships for next school year. To be frank, I think she is only doing this because it is clear to her that something is bothering me (and has been for a while). Im actually concerned about this, b/c I want her to apply for these scholarships from her own inner voice not because her bf is upset. </p>
<p>After all of the (good) advice I have gotten, I need to see if she can discuss these money issues with me and be honest. I'd give her many more kudos if she could tell me, "Here is the situation - and it does not look pretty." I feel like she has either been:1) lying to me the whole time, or 2) she really feels that everything will be OK (which doesn't make sense to me). </p>
<p>Right now, I think she has a false sense of security - which is what scares me the most. We have talked about the future at times, which includes a lifestyle and family that is not consistent with her debt situation and current actions.</p>
<p>Yes- there is a chance I will be rich. Yes - there is a chance that she will be rich. Am I counting on it? NO! Is she counting on it? I don't know - but she is probably counting on it more than me. Or perhaps she doesn't even think about it. </p>
<p>Yes - I am probably looking more long term than her at this point and timing is probably off. That is probably why she doesn't see the need to talk about this stuff at the moment. Furthermore, I know she gets down if she tries to stare "reality" in the face. </p>
<p>I think this is more of a difference in personality. I get down when I don't accept reality, and she chooses to be happy and live in the present. There is a huge upside to being like this, as she can be very accepting of situations at times without freaking out like I do.</p>
<p>HOWEVER, because I tend to be a planner I do a good job at avoiding major problems so I dont need to deal with those messy situations. Im not saying that one way is right or wrong just different.</p>
<p>What is becoming clearer and clearer to me with time is that I really believe we have different natures. We make decisions completely differently. Perhaps that is the real root of this whole situation, and something we should both realize. I have mentioned this to her in the past, and she still feels like I am IT. Perhaps she knows something I dont know!</p>
<p>Perhaps I need to do a better job at facing reality myself and doing BOTH of us a big favor and avoiding a lifetime of problems. Perhaps that IS the only solution here. It makes me very very sad to think about that.</p>
<p>Aries,</p>
<p>You are consistently mis-interpreting the tone here. I think you are in the minority on this one.</p>
<p>I don't think she's all that into MG, and think he should let go and date others, as has been suggested here repeatedly, and in fact she has told him so as well. </p>
<p>I'm with AriesAthena - there is an unpleasant, controlling, even stalking tone to this. The young woman has indicated that she doesn't want to discuss her finances, that she isn't concerned about the debt later, that things will work out, she hasn't asked for help paying back the loans, and she has said that MG is free to date others. </p>
<p>Given that, it's a little bit odd to see such intensive speculation about the size of her grants, nosing around on NYU's website, and trying to figure out ways to nail her down. </p>
<p>I get that the NYU website is publicly available, but still - this young lady didn't invite anyone to scrutinize her financial behavior, so, why not leave her alone already, and move on? </p>
<p>Last, when someone - of either sex - says "go ahead and date other people", they mean it.</p>
<p>MathGuy,</p>
<pre><code> I think I understand?! You have empathy for the gal and her situation and yet you also are unsure about things to the point where the judgement of the both of you is clouded.
You can break things off peacefully and move on. You are at a totally different "place" in your life than this gal. And it seems to me that y'alls values and morals are different.
NYU still has a good rep, academically speaking. But, I honestly do not think there is a damn' thing about it worth 100K! There is some sort of odd scamming going on with that. I have been there to attend lectures in British Romanticism with my Lit. mentor (lady of a certain age, from Oklahoma) and have hung out there because of that. None of that means, I am claiming to be an expert. But, the hell with 100K in undergrad debt!
For the sake of your blessed health, you need to move on. None of this is worth it mathguy. You seem like a nice enough fellow. Move on and you will be guided to someone else eventually.
</code></pre>
<p>peace.</p>
<p>Mathguy, if I can offer some unsolicited advice - I'm sure you're a very nice person and that you mean well. However, your energy may be misdirected. It's totally o.k. to have different styles and different approaches to life - your girl friend has one approach, you have another. Both are valid and neither are wrong, but also one is not "superior to" or better than the other. </p>
<p>When you meet the young lady who shares your value system and your approach to life, you'll know it. You won't be stressed out, soliciting advice from strangers on the internet, trying to calculate loan repayments by wildly guessing at the numbers, or trolling the websites of colleges that you do not attend. </p>
<p>Instead, you'll be able to sit down and talk with the person with relative ease, and you won't have to go trying to figure out the facts: the facts will be offered to you freely, willingly, and perhaps even enthusiastically. The person who is the best match for you will go out of her way to OVERINFORM you, not evade the discussion. </p>
<p>Your current girl friend is not that person - at least, not today. If you're not ready to make a decision to break it off, why not back off for a while, get some space and perspective on it? It's entirely possible that one day she may come to be flexible in her position, and you may too. Someday this may work itself out. But today is not that day. </p>
<p>This young lady has taken a step back from you, and, when someone takes one step back, you take two.</p>
<p>Stalking? </p>
<p>This has become beyond absurd.</p>
<p>Bobby, no, it hasn't, and the distinction is important. No one's suggesting that the OP is physically parked outside the NYU financial aid office. But inserting oneself into another person's financial affairs, or other business, without invitation to do so isn't really right. Especially when the other person has specifically declined invitation to discuss the subject matter. </p>
<p>If you're in a relationship with someone - it can be business, friendship, whatever - and they won't tell you certain information, it really isn't very nice to go trying to chase it down on your own. It doesn't matter that the NYU site is in the public domain, it still isn't very nice. </p>
<p>Put another way, if I wanted to, I could use public source information to find out the value, sale price and sales history of someone's house, what corporations or businesses they lead or own or have licensed, driving record, criminal history, public records relevant to taxes, political campaign contributions, land line and cell phone numbers, alternative email addresses, etc. All these things are available with just a few mouse clicks. But just because we CAN do these things doesn't mean we SHOULD do these things. </p>
<p>Pretty much, if someone is in a relationship where they feel compelled to do this (and I'm not saying MG's motivations aren't legitimate, or that they're not based on very logical, mature concerns) it's probably a pretty strong signal that it's time to end, or at least downgrade, the relationship.</p>
<p>Latetoschool:</p>
<p>You give some really give some really good advice above. In fact, my gut tells me that you are 100% correct. I SHOULD NOT have to poke around the NYU website, and think of clever ways to get her to open up. The right person WOULD go out of there way to inform me. You are correct. I also agree that no person is right or wrong here. We are just different. </p>
<p>Here is where I disagree. I am certainly not stalking her. If anything, it is she who is hanging on much more so than me. Remember that she feels that I am THE ONE, and she is very firm about this. When I voice to her that I may need to back off, take a break, see others, etc., she says "I'm OK with whatever you decide, because I know we are meant to be together and you will be back. I'm not jealous, nor do I feel the need to do the same to you." </p>
<p>This is one of the most beautiful things about her. She has always stood very committed to the relationship. She doesn't waver at all (like me). She is bold and confident in this way. I tell her that I think we are different, and are probably not good for each other, and she (politely) strongly disagrees!</p>
<p>Whew!</p>
<p>I really like your idea of backing off and taking a break for a while. Maybe that is a good compromise.</p>
<p>Am I very involved? Yes. Am I a stalker - heck no!</p>
<p>MG, I see your point. Clearly "stalking" was a poor choice of words on my part. But with your last post, it also seems as if she is sending you conflicting messages. It's no wonder you're confused - I'd be confused as well. I can't guess which set of messages you're supposed to listen to here - the one that seems to say "stay out of my personal finances" or the one that says "I'm totally committed to you". </p>
<p>Perhaps this is something that will work itself out long term. Meanwhile, if it were my daughter, I would be offering final advice like this: "pay no attention at all to what the other person SAYS, but instead pay very close attention to what they DO". Since she seems to be saying different things, pay attention to her actions instead. While you date others, of course. :)</p>
<p>This seems like the classic "Opposites Attract" and they do and sometimes it works out very well and sometimes it's a disaster. They like how different the other is from them, but can they live with it?</p>
<p>It all depends, I think, on core values, and for some couples, that's spiritual, for others it's monetary, for others it's something else, like compassion or public service. Whatever it is, I think the core values need to match, even though unlike people can thrive if the differences don't hit the core. </p>
<p>My husband is very different from me in certain ways; loves sports, etc. and I like the way he differs from me. But in the ways that matter to me: is he a good person, does he care about family, etc., he is a total fit. Were he not a good match there, our relationship wouldn't work. And it has worked, for 30+ years.</p>
<p>If financial stability is a core value for OP, (though I think he's attracted to his GF's free-wheeling ways), he may need to think again. If his attraction outweighs his misgivings, that's another matter. Only he can say, but the attraction of the opposite is often very strong.</p>
<p>MathGuy,</p>
<p>You have NOT discussed wanting her to open up to you about her finances. Your big issue is that she's taking on all this debt. </p>
<p>What in God's name do you want her to do? Drop out of school? Transfer? Finish at NYU and accrue more debt? Another option?</p>
<p>I don't care if you tell ME the answer, but YOU don't know that answer yourself. You asked for advice ("Advice is what you ask for when you know what to do but don't want to do it" - my guess is that you know you should lay off but really like harping on her), got it, but don't know what to do with it. </p>
<p>Opening up to you about her finances doesn't change your big issue, which is having a lot of debt.</p>
<p>--
High-five to LateToSchool & SweetNY. I'm not a Smug Married, but that doesn't make me wrong. (Yes, smug! Y'all are annoying as all hell.)</p>
<hr>
<p>I don't think she's sending you mixed messages. You just aren't being clear about relaying them. She's being, from what you've said, very explicit about one thing, which is, "Get your nose out of my finances." </p>
<hr>
<p>Re: things working out. Unless I'm severly mistaken and the NYT is wrong, New York is offering $14,600 housing subsidies to math & science teachers. While teachers don't make great money, very good ones can get fellowships:
<a href="http://www.sciencejobs.com/viewevent.action?job.id=scij15909&index=3%5B/url%5D">http://www.sciencejobs.com/viewevent.action?job.id=scij15909&index=3</a>
$50,000/year starting + bonus + subsidized master's + housing stipend... even for NYC, I think she could manage. </p>
<p>While I can't be sure that is her plan, it could be her back-up plan or something on her radar screen. That, coupled with the fact that she can get an employer to pay her master's, means that she may rightly be minimally concerned about paying her debt back.</p>
<hr>
<p>Disclosure: I'm very traditional, so I understand moral/religious objections to this. However, given that her loans for living are going to account for (by your measure), over $30,000 of her debt alone, why isn't she living with you? Is it really worth (by your calculation) $30,000 + 7% interest - let's say $45,000 by the time she's done paying it off - to live separately?</p>
<p>Things like that are the reason why I have a hard time buying the fact that you're really concerned about your future. If, for a myriad of reasons, that doesn't work for you, fine. But consider the fact that there are things YOU could do to help her lower her debt and control her costs that you aren't going. Nagging doesn't count.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Yet she still won't share her dirty little secret with him.
[/quote]
Acinva, you are amazingly immature. </p>
<p>"Dirty little secret?" Um, did I miss the part where this was high school and she's not spilling the fact that she's not a virgin?</p>
<p>Can you be any more catty? I'm struggling here about what you can really say re: a grown woman who doesn't let everyone she dates nose around her business. I bet, though, that your reply will answer that question. </p>
<p>I've had men tell me that I'm "The One" or that they want to marry me. That doesn't give them the right to nose through my yearly tabbed portfolios with bank statements, stock quarterly reports, and loan agreements. When WE talk MARRIAGE, that can be an issue. Marriage as in more than "wow, you're amazing" but as in "Can we live together? Do we both want children? How do we want to raise them?" Yeah, finances are a part of that discussion, but they haven't had that discussion yet; as such, he just has to get his butt, nose, and other bodily parts out of her business, hard as it is.</p>
<p>"Dirty little secret." I can't stop shaking my head at the euphemism for "student loans."</p>
<p>Ariesathena makes a very important point. If I were dating someone, regardless of how seriously, or how close to marriage, and I found out that he was exploring information online to try to calculate my financial position, regardless of how public the information was, I would be absolutely outraged, offended, sickened, disgusted - I cannot think of enough words to describe how turned off I would be. It strikes me as "put the lotion back in the basket" territory. I would be even more horrified if I discovered they were asking for advice from strangers, on the internet no less, about MY financial position, MY choices, and MY responsibilities. One thing is certain - I'd end the relationship immediately. </p>
<p>Works in reverse, too - when I'm dating someone, even though it's an easy matter to go to the county property appraiser's website and figure out how much someone's house is worth, or access other freely available public records about them, I would never in a million years do so. It's just wrong, and it's creepy. I prefer instead relying on my good judgement, my gut instincts, and to honor, respect and trust the other person, and to accept information about them when they are ready to share it with me. </p>
<p>That's not saying that this information isn't legitimately a major component of discussions of marriage. But it's supposed to be exchanged freely, willingly, and in the spirit of mutually desired cooperation towards specific goals. If that isn't happening, and one party desires it and the other doesn't, well, that means the relationship is not in balance, and something in the relationship needs to change. </p>
<p>I don't think MG ever formed any ill intent though - I think he is simply very polarized in how he wants to manage resources, and it seems his GF is equally polarized in her approach. Those two styles aren't mixing well at the moment, hence there is great conflict and stress. One thing is certain though - it's wrong to invade another person's privacy, or to overly speculate about a matter when the other person has been very clear that this is undesirable.</p>
<p>I was just being silly. HOWEVER, Ariesathena, you are much too emotional over this thread --- you sound like a very bitter and angry woman who doesn't think very highly of men. Your responses to this caring OP have been unnecessarily chastising -- a sign that there's more going on that just this thread. Just my opinion though. The OP knows what I think he should do, so I'm done with this thread. You, Ariesathena, can continue your "campaign".</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Two reasons:
1) I have a roommate and that would be impossible. As I mentioned before, I DO the things you suggest [ie, get a roommate, no car, etc.] I like where I live at the moment, and have plans no plans to move in the near future (ie I have a "good deal") </p>
<p>2) I don't believe in living together before marriage. [ call me conservative or whatever]. I just don't think its a good idea.</p>
<p>Also your numbers are way off. Her living expenses are 17K + summer expenses - not 30K. And her interest is deferred. </p>
<p>But I get your point though. Good suggestion, just impossible to do at the moment.</p>
<p>I know she does not want to be a teacher, even with all the perks.</p>