<p>So guys I am down to my final decision (thankfully) and it has been a long road for all of us. I would really appreciate thoughts on these 2 schools. I see them both as great programs but very different. Biggest differences are that Pace BFA MT wants you to audition while you are there and NYU does not. NYU has a much stronger academic reputation. NYU is in a better area. Pace is up and coming and when I talked to their kids it is amazing how many have gotten national tours before they graduated, taken time-off, and then come back and still got back on track. I get the sense, but can’t really explain why, that NYU is slipping in the minds of some and that Pace and others are passing it–but as a student listening to adults rate these schools there is so much jumbled information it’s really hard to know. The training at Pace seems great. Since we don’t have studios yet at NYU I really haven’t dug deep on their training but I will visit soon–anyway–all thoughts appreciated.</p>
<p>For what it’s worth: This is said time and time again…it really is about fit. You have to spend a short time in each place and decide which feels best for you. There is no right or wrong answer here. NYU is a very strong academic school with a world wide reputation. Pace is an up and comer. It does seem that they are flexible regarding students getting work and even encourage it. Is this a very important factor to you? If so, then Pace is probably a better fit. It appears you will have stronger academic rigor at NYU as it is not conservatory training. Is location important to you? I realize that I am merely posing more questions to you rather than answering yours but I believe this is a nuanced conclusion you must reach. Perhaps you ought to make a pro con list for yourself of each school. I visited Pace when my S auditioned. I also liked the vibe and the students seemed very happy. There were many discussions about “working” while in school. This made me feel that the general tone was that of a “trade school” rather than an academic university. That’s just me. Go with your gut. It almost never fails.</p>
<p>JEBJEB, I may be biased since my son is a sophomore in New Studio MT, but I wonder at your concern about NYU’s reputation “slipping” and other NYC schools surpassing it. Really? There have been changes, certainly. NYU parted from CAP21 as their MT studio two years ago and have created their own in-house studio. It’s a new venture and I suppose there have been some growing pains. Even so, it is staffed with amazing people and equally amazing young actors. It is helmed by a very impressive board. My son is thriving and is quite proud of his placement in NSB. If you receive NSB as your studio, I would be happy to introduce him to you. Just PM me. Good Luck and Best Wishes!</p>
<p>My D is a freshman at NSB and has also questioned the level of students that Tisch has been accepting and that includes for the coming year. I am concerned myself and am wondering about NYU’S reputation going forward. She is happy with the level of instruction but quite honestly, was expecting a more experienced student body. She did visit PACE and liked it somewhat but decided NYU was the fit for her. I know people are saying that academically NYU is strong and I agree with that however, the courses for the TISCH kids are not as demanding as for the other schools. It does come down to fit and if auditioning during your first year is important then you should choose a school that allows for that.</p>
<p>tutu17, I’m genuinely curious about your concerns as well–especially as you are a Tisch parent. What is it that your freshman is not satisfied with? Is she saying that her peers are not proficient? It would be helpful to learn more from an insider. Please share.</p>
<p>As to NYU and it’s reputation in the industry, I’m quite confident the Tisch Brand will continue to be well respected in the industry. In fact, it already has proven to be an asset on my son’s professional resume. I can assure you, no one is looking down their nose at NYU Tisch!</p>
<p>I’m a current Tisch student who has studied at two acting studios, and I have made it a point to study with teachers outside of NYU to gain varying perspectives on my training at Tisch. I have taken acting classes outside of the school, private voice training outside, and now I am doing a career-oriented program where I contact Tisch alums who are working in the industry (agents, managers, actors, casting directors) for their input. Their input is that Tisch Drama is definitely considered to be a great school, but it is considered now to be a Top 10 Acting school instead of a Top 5. I have heard directly from Casting directors that a Tisch undergrad diploma does not have the same pull as a CMU, Yale MFA, Michigan MT, CCM MT, etc but it doesn’t look bad either. The way someone put it for me, a Tisch diploma won’t get you in the door but if you have a good audition and they see Tisch Drama they will know you have been well trained. </p>
<p>Also, one of the biggest advantages is that Tisch Drama students take theater studies and academic courses, which gives them more depth and intellectual context than someone coming from Pace or any other conservatory program. And for me, I chose Tisch because I simply have to be around actors who are also CURIOUS about the world and who won’t just be satisfied with shuffle, ball change. I think those kinds of actors often have very little going on behind the eyes and everything is performed at a surface/fake level. At one of my theater studies classes last week I was just amazed at how deep of a conversation we were having about theater and its relationship to race. I thought to myself, this is why I chose Tisch because I know that theater is not just some childhood fantasy but that it affects people and I am in a classroom with people who are so smart and aware of the fact that there is life/a world outside of the theater and that more often than not theater is influenced by that very world. Theater is an interpretation of life, and you can’t interpret anything if you don’t have a life. So I’m a bit concerned with programs where all you do is sing, dance, and act. You have the rest of your life to do that, to be honest, and no college BFA program will completely prepare you so that you never take a performing class again.</p>
<p>That being said, Tisch Drama has some particular weaknesses.
- Because it is not a conservatory there are fewer contact hours in terms of professional training. Someone who is going to Carnegie Mellon BFA MT will simply be taking more “studio” classes than someone at Tisch. At the end of the day, some things just won’t be covered in the Tisch curriculum that it will be in a conservatory program. Whether it is more dance classes, a TV/Film Audition class, Stage Combat, more in depth acting instruction, or whatever something has to go to fit in those academic classes. And there is a lot to learn to prepare ourselves for this industry. Not only will Tisch Drama students (whom have an average of 22 studi0 hours a week) have to face students who have graduated from conservatory programs with 30 studio hours a week (and in four years the gap in hrs between Tisch and conservatories is a lot), they will have to face more experienced actors who also look young and can play young. </p>
<p>As a result, I have found it necessary to supplement my Tisch training during the summers with summer intensives. As well as occasionally taking an audition workshop, or dance classes on Saturdays, or doing a TV/Film Acting class over winter break.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Tisch Drama classes are inarguably huge. The two studios I have been to have groups of 12-14. New Studio on Broadway classes I believe are capped at 18 (although I have heard of instances from my friends where they have had to go over that and have reached 22). This is in my opinion unacceptable. You cannot tell me that they will get the same amount of attention from schools like Michigan where they have only 8-10 people per group. Either students will be doing shorter scenes or they will work in class fewer times or something.</p></li>
<li><p>As a result of having approximately 60 students per class per studio, some studios do not have the same teachers teaching all the groups. So one group may have one teacher and another group may have another, and while this is good to get varying perspectives, it at times can be conflicting and make the curriculum seem not well planned out. This was the case at my first studio. Now in my second studio, we have the same teachers who teach all the groups. That being said, teaching 5 groups of 14-16 students is a lot and therefore teachers often aren’t able to remember specifically what each student may or may not need to work on. They try their best and take notes, but come on. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>I don’t really know that much about Pace so I can’t comment on it. But I’ve tried to be as honest as I can. Keep in mind I wouldn’t trade my Tisch education for anything, and I personally would not have to Pace. My options would have been CMU, U Mich, or NYU. NYU has SO MANY advantages and opportunities that other schools do not have and I have taken advantage of these opportunities and have felt so lucky to be at NYU. I can talk more about those if you want. That being said, NYU’s BFA program is different from most and as a result there can be perceived DISADVANTAGES, and you would be a fool I think to not recognize those. No school is perfect, and Tisch certainly is far from perfect. (But then again, how close to perfect is Pace?)</p>
<p>Now these are all my opinions, but I have gotten them from talking to teachers at Tisch, teachers outside of Tisch, casting directors who have graduated from Tisch (so it’s not like they intentionally want to bad mouth Tisch. but they have to talk about the reality), agents/managers who have graduated from Tisch, actors who have graduated from Tisch who are NOT working, and actors who have graduated from Tisch who ARE working.</p>
<p>I also don’t know much about the New Studio on Broadway, although to be honest I’ve heard criticism from some students that its contact hours are “light” especially compared to that of Atlantic Acting School or CAP21. Lets keep in mind that more studio hours = more money and CAP21 was cut to save Tisch money. I am however more familiar with CAP21 and I can tell you in terms of students with “experience”, there are some stand outs and some really mediocre people. And why Tisch does not weed those people out is bothersome to me, when they list Tisch on their resume and give a horrible audition as well as being unprepared in terms of professional presentation, it makes us ALL look bad.</p>
<p>claydavisdbc, Thanks for responding so candidly about your knowledge and experience at Tisch. It is always good to hear directly from an active student on matters good and perhaps not so good in the drama department. </p>
<p>I think it’s really difficult to compare Tisch’s multiple studios to most other college programs. Tisch is unique in offering so many options in both primary and advanced training. It’s probably not really fair to even try to compare Tisch to Pace for the JEBJEB. If he is truly interested in MT, than he would likely want a comparison of Pace to NSB MT. Even so, your comments are invaluable. It’s great to get an insider’s point of view!</p>
<p>As to how Tisch is perceived in the industry, I still say no industry professional is going to look down their nose at a Tisch drama graduate. Certainly not Top Casting Director Bernie Telsey, for instance, who is on the advisory board of New Studio. Nor Tony Award Winning Directors Bartlett Sher or Michael Mayer, also on the board. Nor Richard Fisher (Abrams Artist Agency), Sutton Foster (Tony Award Winning Actress) and numerous other high profile industry professionals who are on the board as well. And there are a number of CMU alumni–who either taught at CMU or graduated from CMU–on the faculty of NSB.</p>
<p>claydavisdbc–Thanks so much for your thoughtful response–It is great to hear the perspective of a current student. You say in your post that Tisch is no longer a top 5 program–now it is a top 10–can I ask why? What has happened over the last few years and why is Tisch dropping? As I stated in my post, I have heard the same thing from casting directors, college counselors who focus on this area and fellow students who travel the music theatre circuit and it really concerns me. I want the academics NYU offers but I don’t want crowded acting classes or a program that many see as falling rather than rising.</p>
<p>Does the administration see these problems and agree they exist? Is there a plan for improvements?</p>
<p>Back to Clay before I leave, I wanted to say thanks again for your input. Just speaking off thread, I understand your efforts to go outside of NYU to get further along. My son does One on One and has trained outside of school for VO. He has an agent but has stood firm on his commitment to college. He is signed across the board. His theatrical agent continues to submit him to projects, but on a very limited basis per his situation. He loves VO and has gone out of his way to train first and then cut a professional demo–not even needed by his agency–so that they would take him seriously about this avenue of work. It has paid off. It’s all about working towards a career in the many and varied opportunities of the business.</p>
<p>I’m sorry if I’m a bit of a parental cheerleader. NYU Tisch is a great place to be, despite the challenges. It’s darn good training for the real world. For the right person, which I suspect your are, it’s a good place to be. Good luck and break many legs in the future!</p>
<p>That’s great about your son doing VO. I’m also a One on One member, I haven’t taken that many classes there but I am working outside of NYU right now towards commercial print and on-camera commercials. I think I’ve found a new passion (as well as source of income, not a bad thing). </p>
<p>Well the top 5 vs. top 10 thing is just what people have subjectively saying. Keep in mind top 10 is pretty awesome, and in the end it is your audition that matters. Even with academic majors any school in the top 10 or 25 for that matter will earn you serious consideration.
I think THE problem at Tisch is the administration. The old chair was forced to step down and we now have an interim chair. And the many problems of the department are I believe outside of his control. Keep in mind NYU is a tuition dependent university, and as they are planning on doubling the size of its NYC campus as well as expanding study abroad sites, all schools within NYU have been told to increase class sizes. Which is why acceptance rates have increased through NYU, and being a junior, I can tell you all studios now have larger class overall class sizes. I can also tell you news that I just found out, that Tisch will be re-adding the Strasberg studio, once again increasing the size of the drama department. I think teachers have made it clear that the large number of students is now making it difficult (sometimes people have trouble registering for department theater studies classes. My freshman year they ran out of available classes and hurriedly added some more). I have been told by someone very high up at Tisch that quite frankly, more studio hours means more money. And the university is on a spending spree, and that department budgets are being cut. Keep in mind this year there were 5 mainstage productions as opposed to around 9 last year. Another teacher of mine who is also a full time professor in another Tisch department (not Drama) also told me that the university is now taking more of our tuition money on building their study abroad sites and giving less to individual schools and departments.
For example, it used to be if you studied abroad your junior or senior year, your school (this being Tisch) would get 60 percent and the university’s office of global programs which runs study broad would get 40 percent. This will now be flipped in the near future to 40 percent for the school and 60 percent for global programs.</p>
<p>Now all of these random facts probably seem really irrelevant to acting, but I feel that the administration is aware of these problems and simply cannot change them because they have quotas to meet from their higher ups. My classmates and I have personally had sit down meetings with the chair of the department, associate chair, as well as the dean of Tisch. My friend who just had a meeting with the chair of the department said he was very sympathetic and said that if things were only up to him, they would be changed immediately :/</p>
<p>WOW, thanks so much Claydavisdbc for such an honest and helpful entry. When I posted that my D had some concerns about NSB I thought I was going to be bashed for submitting that opinion. She loves NYU and her program but is aware that it is a new program and with anything new, there are often problems that need to be ironed out. She was a bit disappointed in that the program was accepting kids with not really strong dance backgrounds which for MT you think would be a requirement near the top of the list. She is also aware that many of the top tier kids from theater programs are now applying to Michigan and CMU as their first choices and NYU might be on that list but not at the top.</p>
<p>That being said, I want to thank you again for all of the helpful info that you shared. I have taken some notes that I will give to my D on supplementing her studies. You also mentioned that there are many things at NYU that you have taken advantage of and I have an open ear if you are willing to share those things as well!!! Also, I could not agree with you more concerning the academic component and that was a big requirement we asked of our D. We wanted her to supplement her acting with academic courses and is why NYU was a fit for her. It is refreshing to read your really well written entry and it was so nice to find someone in this competitive area who was willing to share their experience and knowledge with others. Even more impressive is that you are sitting down with the faculty and taking the time to share your input which can only benefit the school in the long run-thanks for that! Bravo to you!</p>
<p>@BvilleLady-I am also aware of the strong board members but it is important to distinguish that just their presence on the board does not reflect what they may think about the program. My husband has sat on boards of programs that were a mess. Hopefully however, their knowledge and input will bring Tisch back up to the top 5 where it belongs. Fingers crossed!!!</p>
<p>Your welcome Tutu! I got a lot of info about Tisch on this board when I was an accepted student and now I’m trying to give back.</p>
<p>Okay so I’m sure your D would know many of these but here is just a rough idea off the top of my head
- Take advantage of going to these external Tisch studios and trying to take classes with them not through NYU. It will be cheaper and since they normally teach Tisch students they will understand where your process is.
- Many NYU acting teachers teach private workshops to supplement their incomes, this is a very valuable opportunity. Not only for you to see if you want to transfer to that studio but because many of these teachers know the weaknesses of each studio. There is a summer workshop called Acrobat of the Heart that is taught by ETW’s main acting teachers, I think this would be invaluable because at ETW Transfer Track they accept people from all studios so they definitely know if you come from X studio that you probably lack training in this area.</p>
<p>Circle in the Square also does outside workshops, acting technique and scene study.</p>
<p>CAP21 will soon be offering nightly classes like dance classes, audition technique/song performance, audition technique/cold reading, etc. </p>
<p>Atlantic Acting School offers nightly workshops in Vocal Production, Scene Study, Commercial Technique, Business of Acting, etc
3. Take advantage of work opportunities so that when you graduate you will have made connections for your survival jobs. I know that after I graduate, if I desperately need a survival job I have people to contact.
Go to the Wasserman Center and look for part time, small catering jobs, temp jobs, etc. A lot of rich people in NYC need people to help them file, organize, etc.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Try to intern at a casting agency or talent agency over the summer. OR make contacts with them and offer to be a reader in their auditions. ***I have heard that no audition class you ever take can teach you as much as being in a real professional Broadway audition and watching.</p></li>
<li><p>Visit New Dramatists, they often have new playwrights in residence and will guide you to which playwrights and plays need people of your type. Great for monologues and for connections</p></li>
<li><p>See shows at NYU Tisch Graduate Acting- it is considered to be the top acting program in the country if not the world, and they now have a Summer Program for Undergraduates taught by their prestigious faculty. </p></li>
<li><p>Last year we had a program called Tisch Drama Mentor- a faculty member from another studio can mentor you by giving you advice, coaching material, going over resumes/headshots, etc. The program was put on hiatus this year but maybe it will be back next year. I think its’ always great to make contacts with faculty from other studios. My faculty mentor even coached me on my audition monologues for advanced studios.</p></li>
<li><p>Take advantage of office hours with the department chair and associate chair for career advice as well as curricular advice- what advanced studios to do etc.</p></li>
<li><p>I’m sure being in NSB you know this, but it’s always good to make contacts with the Tisch Musical Theater Writing Department. </p></li>
<li><p>Audition for Tisch Student Films as well as Tisch Dramatic Writing staged readings.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Again, I am so impressed and grateful! It sounds like you have a great head on your shoulders and I am sure you will be successful. Especially since you send out good Karma!! I always say, and truly believe that, if you do something good for others then something good will come back to you! I will pass these pearls of wisdom on to my D because i am sure she does not know some, if not most, of those suggestions! We truly appreciate all of your help and truly wish the best to you in your career!</p>
<p>Dear Claydavisdbc- I think all the CC readers here need to send you $50 at least for that very useful, last post! 
So many good ideas for summer. I appreciate it!</p>
<p>I agree #12 was an excellent post thank you for detailing that info. I’m saving it.</p>
<p>I’d like to return to the Pace vs. Tisch question and specifically the concerns about administrative problems at Tisch. Tisch seems to be getting kicked around quite a bit on the threads this year which is a concern for anyone weighing program choices. But how do we know that other programs including Pace or others like U Mich, CMU etc. don’t have their own back stories if you look under the hood? It is the Arts after all and these drama programs have to survive in a very tough economy with fewer sources of funding and higher expenses.</p>
<p>I agree that larger class sizes that are evident at Tisch now have an obvious downside. On the other hand, I’ve often wondered how programs that talk about 6 – 8 students per class survive economically. That is not a lot of students to justify their economic existence within a larger university especially if some portion of those students are on scholarship.</p>
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<p>I know some schools enjoy VERY large endowments per capita. It’s also worth looking at the role (if any) that prestigious alum play in supporting various theatre programs. I know that NU and I think UMich have had some very generous supporters (UMich maybe more parents rather than alum?).</p>
<p>To JEBJEB, There is a lot to be said for an up and coming program, they tend to try harder. It sounds like you like the opportunities available at Pace. I live in NYC and while Pace is not in Greenwich Village, it is definitely not in a bad area. There is a lot to do downtown, it is walking distance to Southstreet Seaport. Pace may not have the same sort of national reputation that NYU does but it is a very good school.</p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/1116787-colleges-did-current-broadway-performers-attend.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/1116787-colleges-did-current-broadway-performers-attend.html</a></p>
<p>This was from 2 months ago. Pace is a fine school, and I would never knock it. But all this talk about NYU’s fall from grace, is just plain silly.</p>
<p>MOMMY5, soooooooo many of my D’s fellow graduates from Tisch are working professionally in the field, including at the highest levels. And this is just among her own circle of friends, not the entire list of graduates.</p>
<p>@tutu17 on your post: “My D is a freshman at NSB and has also questioned the level of students that Tisch has been accepting and that includes for the coming year.” </p>
<p>Isn’t it a little early to question the level of students for the coming year. Nobody knows who they are yet. </p>
<p>The audition process itself doesn’t lend itself particularly well to guaranteeing a class of the most capable and committed students. It’s too quick and but a glimpse. Some with lesser qualifications, talent or passion get in and meanwhile so many others with fantastic qualifications, talent and desire to learn get rejected. I don’t think this is a phenomenon that is unique to NYU/Tisch. But Tisch in comparison is a very big program and they process an awful lot of live auditions.</p>
<p>Maybe part of Tisch’s problem stems from being one of the defending champs. It’s a lot of work to stay on top when everyone is chasing you. If you ask enough questions about anything regarded as good, sooner or later you will hit some negatives. By way of example, I live in city that is often listed as a highly desirable place to live in those annual magazine articles. In truth, it is beautiful here and there is much to love that I could highlight. But if you asked me enough times, I’d eventually mention things like voters inability to move forward on anything without multiple referendums that in essence say the same darn thing, or the mayor and city council have pet projects that are great for special interests and terrible for the masses, or our police department is under scrutiny for excessive use of force and our sports teams never go all the way etc. All those things are true but it doesn’t still change that fact that it’s a great place to live.</p>