I’ve seen a lot of posts on here about music majors in a liberal arts setting. Since I’m a Lawrence alum and I’m almost done with my master’s at Oberlin, I thought I’d post an Ask Me Anything (AMA) thread if people have questions. This can also extend to more general discussions about music majors at LACs, to which I think I have some ability to comment but I’ve been a conservatory student at both schools. I’d also advise taking what I have to say with a grain of salt because one year at Oberlin as one of less than twenty total grad students is not as representative as having gone to Lawrence as a normal student.
Some points that come to mind before they’re even asked:
Lawrence is more rigorous than Oberlin, academically speaking. I think it’s because of the trimesters, not necessarily that Oberlin’s classes are lacking in quality. My master’s has been very rigorous, but honestly college was harder most of the time. I also feel confident saying that the undergrads I know at Oberlin are not as flustered as Lawrence students.
Oberlin has more consistently high-quality music students, which I believe is because they can recruit much more easily than Lawrence. Lawrence’s top musicians are definitely on par with Oberlin’s, but Oberlin doesn’t have the mid-tier musicians that make up a large chunk of the Lawrence student body. That said, I feel that Lawrence’s faculty is on par with Oberlin’s so the main musical advantage to Oberlin is that you’re surrounded by almost exclusively students who are at a really high level. Lawrence is probably a better fit if you want to work really hard but don’t like competition.
Both schools have extremely strong characters. Oberlin is basically an East Coast school in terms of student body and attitude despite being in Ohio. It seems like most people are from New York (Manhattan), Philly, or Boston. Lawrence has a lot of Chicago, Twin Cities and Wisconsin (from around the state) people and feels very Midwestern. I’d say Oberlin is more hipster and Lawrence is preppier, but there’s a part of the student body there that is really similar to the overwhelming majority of Obies.
If you’re looking to do a BA in music, I would absolutely recommend Lawrence over Oberlin; at Oberlin BA majors in “Musical Studies” are not guaranteed to have a spot in a studio for their instrument. As I understand it, they sometimes end up taking lessons with upperclassmen and to me that’s just not worth the tuition in that case. At Lawrence, the BA “Music” major is almost the same as the performance major, but with the senior recital not being required in lieu of taking more college classes. (The way this stacks up depends a bit by instrument.) Lawrence BAs take lessons with faculty, but in some cases actually have more choice than the BM students, as there’s a few faculty members who only teach “non-majors” and BAs could choose them if they want and their instrument has such faculty.
Appleton isn’t as bad as people make it out to sound, but it is kind of a bland town. Without a car, you’d have more stuff to do in Appleton than Oberlin but The City of Oberlin is a much more interesting little bubble. The shops and restaurants in Oberlin are totally dependent on the College for their existence and they’ve definitely molded themselves that way. Appleton has almost 75,000 people so it can survive without LU and you’ll find a lot more people in Appleton who either don’t care about Lawrence or have no relationship to it. It would be very difficult to live in Oberlin, Ohio and have zero connection to Oberlin College. It’s also way warmer in Oberlin.
In the music world, having the Oberlin label on your resume is an advantage, period. It’s up there with all the other top-tier conservatories and every time I’ve introduced myself to a new music education professional I’ve met the Oberlin label has had an immediate effect in how they respond to me. It’s kinda BS because the piece of paper you have does not paint the whole picture of who you are at all, but that is something to keep in mind when choosing between the universally acclaimed schools and those with lesser names. I love Lawrence and will always direct people there, but that same effect on really happens with the Lawrence label in Wisconsin. It’s not Lawrence’s fault they’re not as well-known - Oberlin is a super wealthy school!
I hope this is helpful or at the very least interesting, since there are only a handful of people who have gone to both schools.
I can’t believe I forgot this point but at Lawrence the College and the Conservatory are much more integrated than they are at Oberlin. A lot of Obies have hardly any friends in the opposite school but at Lawrence that’s rare. There’s still a divide between the two at Lawrence but it’s not as staunch and I think that’s an important part of each school’s social make-up.
I must strongly disagree, the college and conservatory at Oberlin are TIGHTLY integrated. Housing is assigned without regard to whether you are in the conservatory or not so many college people have conservatory roommates. My daughter’s group of friends certainly has both. She says that at Oberlin being in the Conservatory is just no different than people having another major. You may not share many classes, but that doesn’t mean the groups aren’t close.
As one of the few graduate students you may not have seen this.
Thanks for posting this for everyone. I personally was most interested in #4. It is always interesting to hear opinions on the experience of music BA students in institutions that also offer a BM.
Troyus, I value what you’re saying because, again, I don’t have a very typical view of Oberlin as a student. That said, from what I have seen (and I have plenty of undergrad conservatory friends), your daughter’s experience is unfortunately not the norm for most Oberlin students. When I have gone to campus life events, I have repeatedly, repeatedly heard the phrase, “I don’t know anyone in the con” from college students upon introducing myself. There’s some of that at Lawrence, but it’s a lot less. Also, Lawrence music majors have to take a larger portion of their classes in the college than do Oberlin music majors so they’re kind of forced into intermingling more. (This also makes pulling off the double degree a little easier there.) I’ve also met very few Oberlin College students who are heavily involved in school-sponsored music whereas at Lawrence it seemed like practically every ensemble had someone who wasn’t in the con.
I grew up in Appleton. There’s a music school there called Lawrence? Ooohhh that must be those buildings at the end of College Ave…I always wondered what they were. Lol.
@MusicEdGuy are you one of the first masters candidates at Oberlin? when my son was accepted there a couple years ago, the emphasis on undergrad was one of the big selling points I recall
@drummergirl Ironically, I’m in the last cohort of master of music teaching - the program is ending after this year. Oberlin has had graduate students for some time as I understand it but it’s not as well-known as the undergrad program, obviously. @musicwind I’m curious, where are you getting your numbers from? I live with grad students in historical performance, the largest graduate program, and we one time counted out every grad student we could think of including BM/MM double degrees and we only came up with about half your number. It’s possible between the group of us we don’t know some of the other grad students but I’m curious how we managed to miss that many.
Please – could I have some further input on the difference between the experience for Oberlin liberal arts students and that of the conservatory students? My daughter has just spent the past two days visiting Oberlin and Kenyon, after both schools accepted her for the fall. She would be a liberal arts student, but she does want to do some music studies as a part of her experience. She wants to be a teacher at an independent school such as a Waldorf or Quaker school. She’s also interested in theater, art, and creative writing. She is definitely on the shy, sensitive side… She found (first impressions) that the Kenyon students seemed a bit more earnest and almost driven – compared with (first impressions) the Oberlin kids who she saw and stayed with. Any feedback on any of this?
Also, the SATs and so on for both schools are quite high, and I actually began to hope the overall Oberlin scores are skewed higher by the elite status of the conservatory. (While my daughter’s an excellent student, her SATs (1300) are not high for these colleges. She did have a 35 on the Reading component.) I’m worried about her being surrounded by super bright and clever kiddos, rather than more compassionate teacher/artist folks who may be a better community for her… Again, any thoughts on this? May the first decision panic is upon us… Thanks!!
I would not expect conservatory students to skew SATs higher. If anything, lower (but I’m only speculating.)
From the creative writing perspective: I teach creative writing at a different university, and I also edit a literary magazine for which we use interns from colleges all over the US. The Kenyon students I’ve dealt with are excellent writers and critical thinkers.
@friendbullwinkle First, I think this needs to be said: SAT scores are not intelligence tests. There may be a number of reasons someone scores higher or lower on the SAT. Spending thousands of dollars and many hours of test prep is a common occurrence for many of the high scorers we know around here. Music students tend to divert much of that money and time to lessons and practice. So I wouldn’t make the assumption that one school’s stuents are more bright and clever vs. compassionate simply based on SAT scores. It may be more indicative of willingness to work incredibly hard toward a goal than raw intelligence.
CMU posts the scores for each of their colleges, which is very helpfu. Search Carnegie Mellon Undergraduate Admission Statistics. You will see that the admitted fine arts students have lower SAT scores and GPAs than the others.
CMU is only place I have seen this broken down in this way, but maybe someone can chime in here about other schools that publish the breakdown. Good luck with the decision - my S is in the midst of making his decision for fall, too. It’s time to make a decision and move on to the next step!
Thank you for these helpful responses. I am following up on them now. I’d love to hear more about Oberlin, from anyone, since that was where she felt the most “pull” to be.
MusicEdGuy. could you say more about the Oberlin undergrads and their not being as flustered. I am trying to get a bead on the student quality of life for my daughter. I posted a longer note about her situation up above a few messages.
friendbullwinkle, My s is freshman at Oberlin Con. and is extremely happy. He has found a group of very serious students there and has been enjoying his teachers and his classes very much. We have been very impressed with the school and spent a bunch of time on the campus when he was deciding. . We have known a number of Oberlin students and grads over the years both in the college and in the Con. and the ones we know are very hard working and interesting people. I think it is a great school that fosters creativity. To me it is a nurturing environment. It also is not the right fit for everyone. We knew a student who was in the College who a very strong musician who took private lessons with a Con. faculty member and took a lot of music classes when she was there.
@friendbullwinkle Sorry, I haven’t been on here in a week; I was traveling all of last week. The comment about Oberlin being less flustering than Lawrence is honestly more about Lawrence than it is about Oberlin. Oberlin students seem to have a bit more time to breathe because the school is on semesters and winter term can be pretty much whatever you make of it. Lawrence is on trimesters, which makes it way more rigorous than it might otherwise be since you’re fitting classes into 10 weeks instead of 15. As for creative writing, I know that Oberlin has a very serious program that doesn’t accept every person who tries to get in. (This happened to my roommate and he ended up picking two other majors instead.) I would guess that Kenyon is a better environment in which to be casually involved in music, as my knowledge of the situation here is that non-conservatory music feels undervalued by many who aren’t in the conservatory. That said, both schools are great places to learn and to be creative. Kenyon students may be a bit more vocationally-oriented, but I wouldn’t know because I’ve never been to that campus.
I cannot comment about Lawrence, but two things to consider about Oberlin are location - it is a small rural town in Ohio and that will either work well or be horrible for an UG. It depends on the student. Also, the political atmosphere is very distinct at Oberlin and a large component of the campus culture and experience and should be considered. Again, it works well for some students and a major turnoff for others. Good luck!
@friendbullwinkle I suggest that you or your child spend some quality time with the Oberlin student blogs. Some are written by students of the College, others by the Con, and some by dual degree students. They give a real flavor of what being a student there is like - socially, academically, musically. You can search by topic to get a range of perspectives on a given issue like “music” or “courses”. You could also encourage your child to check out the accepted students Facebook page. My D found it helpful to see what they talked about - it was stuff like favorite books, movies, music, possible courses of study, very friendly and relaxed. Also, there are lots of music opportunities for non-Con students.
I really wouldn’t worry about the SAT. She was accepted so both Oberlin and Kenyon saw merit in her application and believe that she would do well there. Her test scores are perfectly respectable. Standardized tests are only one aspect within holistic review of applications.
My introverted D felt comfortable at Oberlin after two visits and she will be attending in the fall. It seems like a very socially accepting place. She toured Kenyon over the summer but decided not to apply because it felt a bit too small and isolated for her. We didn’t visit when the students were there so I can’t comment on them. It looks like a great place to be a writer, though.