@RefreshingGel the article brings up your point: “At many top liberal arts colleges, men are accepted at a higher rate than women. Examples: Vassar, Davidson, Bates, Pomona and Swarthmore. At several schools known for a focus on science and engineering the reverse is true. Examples: Harvey Mudd, Carnegie Mellon, California Institute of Technology and MIT.”
@LPROCK the article also brings up your point: ““Our applicant pool is very deep with excellent men and women applicants,” MIT’s dean of admissions, Stu Schmill, told The Post. “The data don’t show that it is easier to be admitted as a woman applicant — that would only be true if our male and female applicant pools were equivalent. But the women who apply are a more self-selecting group. “Therefore, while the number of women applicants is smaller, the quality is extremely high. This is why we are able to enroll a very gender-balanced class, with all students meeting the same high academic and personal standards, and why women do just as well if not better once here at MIT.” The number of teenage girls taking high-level math and science in high school nationwide is a key factor in admission rates for women at schools like MIT. As that pipeline grows, it will produce more potential applicants.”
I thought the article provides interesting information not only on MIT but other colleges as well.
Gender Imbalance in MIT Admissions Maker Portfolios
“One persistent challenge to the Maker Portfolio, however, is the fact that women submit them at a much lower rate than men do, and at a much lower rate than they submit other portfolios and apply to MIT overall”
@FoundDad, remember, not all the EA admitted students actually choose MIT. Quite a few will choose Stanford or another school. Some EA admits actually cannot afford MIT. Yale offers better financial aid than MIT to some very low income students, as does Vanderbilt and a few other top schools lately have special merit for first generation college students. (U of Penn comes to mind) Johns Hopkins is also going to work out less expensive than MIT in the future, because of the super jumbo donation, all devoted to student aid at JHU. Also if you back out the first generation college students of both genders, that really leaves a very small number of spots for boys at MIT of any race who have one parent at least who graduated from a 4 year college. MIT could respond to the financial aid issue, or someone may donate to MIT soon, that will even the financial aid playing field, yet again. Its a moving target.
MIT has a 16.4 Billion dollar endowment. It seems they have plenty money to offer substantial financial aid. If they don’t, maybe there’s something else that is preventing them? Our net price calculation for MIT was the lowest of all the schools my daughter applied to. Of course I don’t know how accurate that will turn out.
Also on the gender question, as a female in STEM who has a daughter in STEM, I agree based on the numerator and denominator the females who apply have a higher chance of getting in. For us, the challenge is getting to the point of applying. I have a degree in math and was told several times as I was going through school I should consider being a teacher (just one example) instead of engineering or another STEM field, based purely on my gender. I am now a data analyst. My daughter also sadly still encounters gender bias as most of her classes are 90% male. Some students at her school started a CS club this year and only boys were included. It was finally advertised to all the students a week ago. My daughter is very conflicted about whether she should join. She had a really great female CS professor (she’s in an early college high school program) last year and this year and it was a HUGE inspiration to her. Until you’re in that situation, you have no idea how much of a difference it makes to see someone like you at the front of the class. Also, females are more likely to downplay their intelligence and success. My mom is actually the one who insisted my daughter was smart enough to apply to MIT. So thankful to her!!
I agree with alliblues. In 10th grade my daughter was thinking about different careers and wondered if computer science would be interesting to her, but there were no computer classes at her all girls high school and for that matter there weren’t even CS clubs, or math clubs, or engineering clubs or classes. However the all boys school did have all of the above. My daughter searched on her own for online computer classes and was won over. Then she started a club at her school. If it weren’t for her dad who first put computer science in her mind, and got her motivated to learn more, she probably would have gone on to the local state college and become a math teacher. The first online class she took was an MIT edX class. A year later she decided that MIT was her dream school and she applied and graduated a year ago.
The point is that girls are just not being introduced to these subjects early enough to consider them as potential careers. But the ones that do, often had to jump through hoops to get to where they are. Those are the girls that are applying to MIT. It’s probably not hard for MIT to find high caliber girls to accept, instead it’s probably difficult for them to choose which ones not to accept, so they can leave room for about an even number of boys.
While we are celebrating the accomplishments of the girls, let’s dispense once and for all with the assertion that MIT is reducing standards for boys.
I know a boy who was deferred in December, and “all” he had done was make USAMO, volunteer extensively, write an original research paper that might get published in a peer-reviewed journal, and finish in the top 1% of a class with ~500 kids that routinely sends kids to top schools each year, including MIT. Really nice kid too, so it’s not a personality issue. His deferral was a shock.
No one’s deferral from MIT should be a “shock”. It should frankly be expected at a school with such low acceptance rate, regardless of accomplishment.
Agree that this shouldn’t be a polarizing male vs female thread.
That said, I do think that women in STEM, especially in CS and engineering fields, face real obstacles along that way that boys simply do not. My daughter was told in middle school by a teacher that girls don’t like, nor do well, in math and science, and that she should choose more humanities courses. She’s had to fight for equal lab time all through high school, was one of only two girls in her AP physics C class, one of two in engineering classes, and the only one in CS. Then she was told by multiple people that the only reasons she was accepted to her schools (not MIT or close to that caliber) was because she was a girl. She worked her tail off and had better stats, more rigor, more leadership, and better ECs that she fought for every step of the way, but no, it’s because she’s a girl. She’s 18 years old and raised in the 21st century!
Totally agree with @UglyMom and @alliblues about girls even making it to the point of applying for theses majors at any school, but especially an elite school like MIT. Kudos to your daughters!
@momofsenior1 When I was getting my math degree back in the mid 90s, the girls in my math classes always had the highest grades. I was at a state school, so nothing like MIT. And my classes were filled with math and engineering majors. I think all the girls were math majors.
My daughter attends an early college STEM high school where she takes all her classes at one of our state universities (with the rest of the university students). There are only 3 girls (including her) in each of her two CS classes this year. So sad. The good thing is that during the three CS classes she’s already taken so far at this state university, her professors have been very supportive and complementary of her aptitude. One of her CS professors wrote one of her recommendations for her college apps.
Interesting thing is, girls get pretty turned off (many) in math and science by third grade. Unless the parents of females have prepared them ( not necessarily mathematically)but more along the lines of shoring them up and telling them about the importance or math, they are not going to be solid applicants. In grade and middle school, many boys blurt out answers and can be negative towards girls in their classes. Some boys are even outright antagonistic and will say things about girls abilities in math. Honestly, I believe there are a lot of parents who are sexist and pass this on to their boys. So sad. Parents also have to prepare their girls for the actual content ( so you have to expect both parents will actively support their girl(s) and be able to teach them the importance of math or give them access to math/science venues as opposed to promoting cheerleading,dance or other “girl” activities.
So what you are working with by the time college rolls around are girls who are HIGHLY self selected: They are good at math/&science ( also a given for MIT boys). These girls who have very likely had to overcome female teachers saying things like I don’t like math or I’m not good at math: They have attended at least one of the legions and legions of camps, competitions and other “math and science” venues where the girls are the minority and may in fact be the only girl ( or be less than 5% of all attendees).
So, if MIT/Caltech, Harvey Mudd and some others have higher acceptance rates for women, let’s just say I’m fine with it since these girls have already swung for the fence. And if they hit the scores needed, they have already gotten a home run.
Also, what many parents don’t want to acknowledge is, your kid (boy or girl) has to naturally be an MIT/Caltech kid. You can’t send a kid to these schools without the depth to make it. They have to have the intellectual stamina and curiosity to excel. It’s not about status, it’s about finding cures for cancer and going to Mars. There are tons of high stats kids out there. There are not a lot of them who could excel at MIT and Caltech.
When the local high school routinely sends its top kids to elite schools, and when your kids know most of them through common activities, there really aren’t that many major surprises when admissions season comes around. For example, nobody was surprised that the Val one year who had little to show besides GPA didn’t get into Stanford but ended up at Cornell. Or that the really quiet kid who writes amazing poetry got into Princeton.
This deferral was a big surprise, especially given that he was considerably stronger than the last set of admits to MIT.
@alliblues It was the same thing in the 1980’s. Women in male dominated fields were often much stronger. They had to be in order to excel. At the Ivy I attended, there were 5 women of 25 men. We were often the types who ignored the various “chatter” regarding men v. women. In fact, I think being able to ignore this stuff is needed though at a very young age not college. Many of these women became highly successful because they focused on doing THEIR best.
IMHO, if you are shocked by a deferral from MIT, then you are either not cognizant of others’ abilities or you have an unrealistic perception of how many qualified applicants there are. ( Honestly, it’s arrogant). Schools have become so competitive that amazing kids get turned down everyday. Preparing our kids to do their best work and seek acceptances from schools where they can thrive is the goal.
My kid does a very high level math & science thing, to expect that each year he/she will be the winner is outrageously egotistical. Likewise, expecting you will attend Caltech because you have perfect SAT’s, or are top 1% GPA wise is just silly. Based on various CC posts, I am amazed at what some folks think is good enough for acceptance. Do people realize this a school accepting the best and brightest from across the world? Hmm.
I am going to respond to your post as kindly as possible.
As a parent who has high performing kids who attend a high performing high school, and who has one child already in an elite college, and who personally knows many kids who attend elite colleges over the last several years, I am far from an uninformed parent about what the elite colleges, including MIT, look for.
Lots of “less qualified” boys take a shot at top tech schools just to try it. Definitely saw this in my kid’s HS (every senior boy on the Robotics team applied to MIT and Mudd). D applied to Mudd. She was the only girl in her HS to do so. She had higher stats and better ECs than any of the boys, so it is not a big surprise that she got in. But I know a couple of the boys (and at least one parent) grumbled that she got in because of gender. Really? Her 2380 (of 2400) SAT and 2 800 subject tests, along with some excellent state level EC accomplishments didn’t help? I’m just saying that the number of applications is misleading. Not saying the OP’s kid was unqualified at all, but am saying that a large number of the male applicants are, which skews the appearance of higher female admission rates.
@intparent That’s a good point. Don’t you think a lot of all the applicants boy and girls are taking a swing and just hoping to get in? I have heard so many parents lament about their kids not getting into the top schools in their fields and then I hear the stats and think, “Wait, what? Are they serious?” I look at it more like odds based on all apps that meet the minimum criteria.
At least in math (the only area I feel competent to opine on), the idea that MIT is having to cull its potential female admits to “leave room for the boys” is insane.
Based solely on anecdotal evidence, I’d venture a guess that girls who are strong in STEM may also be more likely to have more varied interests, including humanities, and so may prefer to apply to the Ivies or UChicago rather than MIT.
I have one of these girls. And to be honest, I find this entire conversation a bit distasteful.
“First generation” kids are 15% of the student population (graduate and undergrad) at MIT. Not taking a whole lot of spaces there. Women are already self selected before they even get to the application part.
There are approximately 1450 acceptances over 21,000 applications. No one group is “taking” spots away from any other. ALL of the applicants who make it past the initial evaluations are well qualified. It takes more than just being “qualified” - they are also looking for a type. My first thoughts when I see kids who are deferred or not accepted who are academically qualified is that it’s more about fit. These are all great kids and there just isn’t space at this school for all of them. And honestly, we could be talking about any of the top 20 (or 50) schools, the engineering schools, CS school’s etc. and have the same conversation.
@yucca10 Some STEM girls are in fact also humanities kids and some STEM girls are focused solely on math and science. Don’t think it’s any different from STEM boys.
Honestly I don’t see the thrust of the thread being about one group taking away spots from another. I saw it more of a discussion about how many great kids there are and how few spots there are and the various aspects of admittance for various groups. Whether one has a boy or a girl, getting into MIT is going to be tough!