Totally aware of this…
One opinion at one university:
- EECS 470- Computer Architecture
- Math 116- Calculus II
- Economics 401- Intermediate Microeconomics
- Chemistry 210- Organic Chemistry
- Physics 140- Introductory to Physics
- Engineering 101- Intro to Programming
- Biology 172- General Biology
- Molecular, Cellular and Developmental Biology (MCDB) 428- Human Genetics
- History 202- Doing History
- Philosophy 296- Honors Introduction to Logic
It appears that many students consider it a difficult subject.
But also, many of the students in that class are pre-meds, for whom A grades are necessary to keep the medical school dreams alive (merely passing with a C or B grade is detrimental for a pre-med).
Chem Es don’t think organic chemistry is hard. The running joke in D’s class is that it was the easiest course they took sophomore year ; ) Lots of ribbing to the pre-meds.
To clarify about the 3.2 engineering GPA at Purdue - that is the cut off to guarantee acceptance into the most popular majors. Purdue says 98% of students with a 2.75 transition to their first choice anyway. Plenty of engineering majors require a 2.0.
Some of D’s friends didn’t get into BME after their freshman year so they are doing Mech E with a bme concentration. Same internships and co-op opportunities and I’d bet the same career outcomes (if not better because of the broader major).
Purdue does not actively weed out their engineers.
I took a few introductory mechanical engineering classes and I agree that they seemed to be intended to discourage anyone who did not really belong in mechanical engineering. The homework was tough for many of the students in the class. I expect that other introductory engineering classes would be similar.
I definitely agree with introductory biology courses. I have heard multiple stories of first midterms with the class average in the 40’s. I am guessing that the class was full of premed students and the professor was doing them a big favor by convincing half of the class that they needed some plan other than medical school. Better to learn this half way through your first semester freshman year rather than later.
I also agree with quantum physics. Quantum physics was the class that convinced me that I was not going to be a physics major.
I do not recall seeing anyone suffer in calculus or differential equations. I do remember seeing quite a few other students suffer when it came to probability and statistics.
One thing about weed out classes: They can also serve as “weed in” classes. When you are breezing through a class and love it, and see half the class drop it because they cannot handle it, then maybe this is what you were intended to do. For me probability and statistics might have been my “weed in” class towards my being a math major.
As ucbalumnus touches on above, the class average prior to a curve has little meaning. A score of 40% could be an A after the curve. For example, I had an intro chem class in which the mean exam grades were usually ~35%, yet almost everyone in the class received A’s and B’s. In another year, the mean exam grades were >90%. Approximately the same very large portion of the class received A or B grades in the year with mean exam grades of 35% and the year with mean exam grades of >90%.
That said, large intro to … type classes with students from a wide variety of majors tend to have lower average grades, particularly when they are graded objectively (graded on objective problems, rather than subjective papers). These same classes tend to be labeled as “hard” or “weeding.” For example, the study at https://archive.ilr.cornell.edu/sites/default/files/WP30.pdf found the following factors were most correlated with a Cornell class having lower median grades
- Class is in one of the following objectively graded fields for which non-majors frequently take intro classes – Econ, Math, Physics, Chem (Bio was not included in sample)
- Class is “introductory”
- Class size is large (>100 students)
- Class is taught by professor (not graduate student or lecturer)
Sorry, this reminds me of a running joke in the gym.
Rock climbers consider climbing a 15’ foot rope in the gym very quick and easy to do, but ask them to squat or even deadlift 500 lbs and you’ll get bunch of anguished faces.
Public flagships tend to be the most brutal.
Some more information about the grade distribution at Purdue is at https://www.purdue.edu/senate/documents/meetings/Causes-and-Consequences-of-Purdue-Grade-Inflation.pdf . The mean GPA was 3.11 in 2019. However, specific courses and departments were lower than the mean. The lowest GPA class listed in the report was Algebra / Pre-calc (MA 15300). 2nd lowest was Calculus I (Ma 16100).
The colleges that curve to a median A grade tend to be extremely selective private colleges for which the vast majority of the class do A quality work. As a general rule, mean grades go up when a larger portion of the students do A quality work, although there are many exceptions. Public colleges also generally tend to be graded more harshly than private colleges. This fits with the lowest average grade classes at Purdue mentioned above. Algebra/pre-calc probably has a larger portion of academically weaker students than most other Purdue classes. Many of the academically strongest students probably place out of calc and start in higher level math.
I was somewhat surprised to see Purdue’s Thermo II listed at the hardest course in the country, just ahead of Harvard’s legendary Math 55. The Hardest College Classes in the Country. Umm, no. Just no.
“Hard” is certainly relative to the student population. Kids taking Thermo II would find Calc 3 a breeze today. Not so much when they were Sophomores. (fwiw, my D21 got a B+ In Thermo 2). This gets back to differentiation between course content (any Real Analysis class will have more advanced material than Calc 2 - “harder” for any individual at the same point in time) and difficulty related to the enrolled students.
Classes I noted many around me having serious difficulty with.
Logic, Sets and Functions (first order predicate calculus) . . . a required course for Comp Sci majors at UT Austin (at one point in time, at least) removed a number of people
Abstract Algebra (group, ring and field theory) was a required course for certain engineering and math majors and that also did some damage to people’s intentions.
Both of these were courses which required proofs and, for many, it would be their first time attempting proofs since high school geometry. These proofs were more . . . challenging.