<p>Who are you to be so sure of everybody's collective motives? Why do you presume we're "all putting forth this false image of perfection". I'm not trying to impress anyone. Maybe someone else is. We're not a collective, homogenous mass of identical parents.</p>
<p>Nick--"support" is one thing, doing the work for the kid is another. Denial? I'm insulted.</p>
<p>I liked this:
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Oh, and once the mother got a "C" on a homework assignment and the kid had a fit.
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</p>
<p>:D</p>
<p>My kids are frankly smarter than I am (in the ways we are talking about here), and not having had the benefit of the classroom explanation, I don't see how I could do a better job on their homework than they do.</p>
<p>And even in the rare case (I am a better writer than one of my 4) I still wouldn't do the essay FOR him. </p>
<p>I have heard of families where the kid applied to lots of schools, had many "short answer" questions, and the family members helped by actually writing the answers for him. I don't understand this at all.</p>
<p>The only thing I can imagine people doing somewhat inadvertantly is fudging the required volunteer hours for National Honor Society or similar award. "That thing you helped out at the church? Yeah, that was probably 2 hours a week for 15 weeks. OK." That's a judgment call, IMO, because whether you did 14.5 or 16 hours is not the point. (And if you didn't "clock in" it's really hard to measure.)</p>
<p>I don't understand what you mean by "What would happen to your kid in middle or high school if you didn't assist at all?" My 9th grade daughter is grounded because she got 3 B+ on her interim grades (I found out sh's been trying to dig herself out of C in those classes since Sep). But there is nothing we could do to assist. In high school all her grades are derived from tests and papers (homework counts for nothing), short of taking those tests for her, I don't know how we could assist. As far as college process, we paid a few thousand dollars for SAT prep, we had a semi-private GC from her HS (1 for 30 kids), so I don't know what else we could have done for her. I (like many parents on CC) assisted a lot with the college list to make sure our kids would find a good fit. But I don't see any of those things I have mentioned is out of ordinary. I think most of us do not have the means to donate a building to any school to help our kids, frankly a one time gift of a few hundred thousand wouldn't do the trick. </p>
<p>I don't think parents on CC are in denial. Nick - I think you are just bitter, maybe you perceived you didn't get the support you needed. If you know of anything other parents may have done, why don't you mention it. If it's not illegal, I may try it with my younger daughter.:)</p>
<p><<there are="" more="" important="" things="" than="" getting="" into="" good="" schools="" -="" integrity,="" self-respect,="" sense="" of="" right="" and="" wrong...="" it="" is="" also="" that="" my="" kids="" know="" i="" have="" faith="" in="" them="" to="" do="" on="" their="" own.="">></there></p>
<p>No kidding! I couldn't help my D with schoolwork even if I wanted to. Can I help her with proofreading apps, assessing volunteer hours, estimating hours spent on ECs, etc.? Yes, I can and I do. Typos in apps, grammatical errors? Yes. Content? Not in a million years.</p>
<p>Why bother to post if you don't believe me? I never cheated, never will. </p>
<p>Did I have a fit when my son blew off an assignment and got a C one quarter in freshman English? I sure did. But with my son, not the teacher, he deserved that grade. He got into some top schools despite his English grades.</p>
<p>hmom, giving a major gift to a school that they did not attend to sway admissions? Wow!<br>
I, too, would not entertain cheating to give any of my kids a leg up.</p>
<p>I have proofread applications for my sons, of course,(and even found typos) and have offered SAT prep classes. All 3 kids took their college essays to the school's Writing Lab. I even got my D a calculus tutor for a few weeks when she was flipping out second semester of her senior year. Could I or would I do my kids' homework? Uhhhh, no! </p>
<p>What kind of example would you be setting for your children if you cheat for them? You know you're cheating and so do they!!! Wrong message.</p>
<p>It hasn't happened yet, but I bet I'll be guilty of writing a sick note when one of my kids is actually on a college visit. Does that count?</p>
<p>The school system only allows 3 excused visits per year. And I just believe there's value in visiting while college is in session. We'll see some over the summer, but not all.</p>
<p>You still need to write sick note? I thought once they turned 18 they don't need your note any more. At my kids school they are allowed to sign out starting 9th grade.</p>
<p>Oh...I am guilty of this^^^!!! I have written sick/dr. appt notes in order to visit schools. D2 won't be 18 until after graduation and our school is also very strict about what is an excused absence.</p>
<p>
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D2 won't be 18 until after graduation and our school is also very strict about what is an excused absence.
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</p>
<p>Ditto on age and strict.</p>
<p>"What would happen to your kid in middle or high school if you didn't assist at all?"</p>
<p>I'll answer this question of Nick's. It wouldn't be a pretty picture. If I didn't wake her up in the morning, she'd miss the bus every day. If I didn't remind her to put her cross country shoes in her bag each morning, she'd be practicing in flip flops. If I didn't nag her about homework, some of it would not get done. If I didn't make her lunch in the morning, she'd go without eating all day (don't ask me why a teenager can't make a lunch). However, I don't view any of this as "cheating." My child is not mature enough to do everything on her own. I hope she'll be at that point by the time she goes off to college, but she's not there yet. In the meantime, I don't see the point of letting her fail. As to why I'm on CC - things have changed a whole lot since I went to college. I'm educating myself so that I can be a good resource for my child as she goes through the college application process. I have the time right now to spend on the board. The guidance counselors at her school have WAAAY too many kids to be able to properly advise each of them on high school courses and college applications, so I'm going to find out everything I can in order to be in a position to help. I don't view it as cheating, I don't even view it as "helicopter parenting." My parents did nothing to help me with the college process, and as a result I had no clue what was available to me. I ended up doing just fine, but I didn't take advantage of many of the options that were out there simply because I didn't know about them. I'd like to be able to help my children find those options.</p>
<p>It's trying to portray myself as a perfect parent in saying that I believe that condoning cheating will hurt my kid more than letting it slide by? Wow, is that how low the standard for being a perfect parent has become? Well, hot damn, I'm finally a perfect parent!</p>
<p>While I do not like parents of applying students making big gifts or paying hundreds of dollars to have a paper "edited" within an inch of its life, that's just my opinion. I'm still waiting for an example of what unethical act I could actually do that would improve my kids chances.</p>
<p>"My parents did nothing to help me with the college process, and as a result I had no clue what was available to me."</p>
<p>Year abroad? Financial aid? SAT Prep? Work-Study? UG Research? Internships? I never even HEARD of these things until I was OUT of college.</p>
<p>Answer to original question: Nope. I have too much healthy Catholic guilt.
And to Nick: Yes, I understand online forums have a rather relaxed etiquette, but calling everyone "a bunch of liars" is rude and makes you seem immature.</p>
<p>"I'm still waiting for an example of what unethical act I could actually do that would improve my kids chances."</p>
<p>Well Pug, it wouldn't take much effort to hack the HS computer system and change some grades, would it? (Just be sure to reset things once the transcript has been sent.) Or you might visit the university development office to inquire about how to put language in your will leaving $3 Million to the school (implicitly contingent upon your children attending the school, naturally). jk!</p>
<p>I've written sick notes (when she wasn't); I've stayed up late quizzing her for tomorrow's test; I've commiserated about lousy teachers; I've spoken to her guidance counselor to make sure she was appropriately placed (not so easy in a school of over 3000 students); I have driven her and her friends to and from rehearsals and auditions; I have supervised bake sales to raise money for extracurriculars; I have kept track of application deadlines and pushed to get last minute things done in a timely manner. I have not cheated-I have mothered!</p>
<p>Pug - Oh, you were serious! Sorry. OK here's one: Hire some Ivy League freshman to take the SATs in your kid's name.</p>
<p>We did not come anywhere close to the cheating line with our kids. I read and commented on early drafts of their essays, including asking substantive questions about what they were trying to accomplish. But when they ignored my ideas -- and they did -- that was fine. I talked to them about which colleges they were planning to apply to, and why (but it was my older kid who taught me most of what I know about application strategy, something she thought about quite deeply).</p>
<p>We rarely if ever looked at our kids' school work, and if we did it was after the fact, not before. Once or twice a year, I tried to go over an essay with each kid, because I didn't think their schools did more than a halfway decent job teaching writing, and I wanted to pass on some of what I thought, but, again, usually after grading.</p>
<p>When my daughter switched schools in 11th grade, I did try to convince the new principal not to rank her, since her rank was going to be ridiculously low and misleading in terms of describing her as a student. We exchanged a series of very substantive e-mails about the policy and administrative issues involved, and I lost the argument. Maybe I won a smallish victory because I think he felt a bit guilty when he really got to know her, and he went out of his way a little to help her the next year.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>It hasn't happened yet, but I bet I'll be guilty of writing a sick note when one of my kids is actually on a college visit.<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>You have to write sick notes for that? Our high school allows college visits as an excusable absence.</p>
<br>
<blockquote> <p>I'm still waiting for an example of what unethical act I could actually do that would improve my kids chances<<</p> </blockquote>
<br>
<p>Claiming the kid achieved something or won some award that didn't actually happen. E.g. saying you were a Siemens science competition finalist or you claimed a time in the mile that was 30 seconds faster than your kid's actual best time. There are dozens of different lies you could tell that would boost your chances.</p>
<p>Of course these big lies are relatively easy to check up on. What is hard to check up on are little lies like claiming you served on some minor committee in National Honor Society. But who cares? Like I said back on Post #11. If the lie is big enough to help, it can be found out. If it's small enough not to be found out, it won't help. So why lie at all?</p>
<p>
[quote]
You have to write sick notes for that? Our high school allows college visits as an excusable absence.
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</p>
<p>Yup, I expect I will. Only 3 visits per year are excused. (And they are only excused if the kid gets principal approval in advance.)</p>