One of the best business schools in PA?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Lehigh University
21

<p>Be careful about lending too much weight to these modestly bogus rankings. First it may suggest one is not yet sufficiently prepared in their analytical and assessment skills. </p>

<p>While there are many great kids who attend and graduate from Penn State ... it's HUGE, and cannot help but graduate a lot of would be partners at Coopers/PW ... when looking at the quality,style of education, it will point out the significant differeces. Do you mind having 5K mates in your accounting 101 class? Do you prefer passive, lecture style or highly engaged, taking roll type of learning? Is it important that you're watching some great Big 11 football teams as they play your doormat almamater? (Sorry, I'm showing my "colors" on that one, perhaps. If you can call white a color. :confused:) There's just a HUGE difference in this one, and one really needs to go way beyond reading US News. It's simply not much value when one is concerned about where and how they want to learn over the next 4 or 5 seasons ...</p>

22

<p>I wouldn't be too concerned about undergrad business school rankings or, especially, what people said in the thread you linked. Part of why I get a kick out of reading these boards is how awful the advice typically is and how removed from the real world as well. </p>

<p>I have worked with countless people who went to elite schools and just aren't very good at what they do. They lack good instincts, leadership skills, vision, technical proficiency, good salesmanship or any number of other attributes. I've also worked with countless people who went to nothing schools and are extremely good at what they do. The enduring lession is that the more unexceptional you are, the more important the prestige level of the school you went to is. And it ain't for the instruction you'll receive, so when you see these rankings of various schools ask yourself what they're made of.</p>

<p>Anyone who thinks being able to say "I went to Penn State" will hold the same value as "I went to Lehigh" is kidding themselves. At least in a place like New York City where you are surrounded by people who went to elite schools and make instant judgements.</p>

<p>Anyone who thinks going to a school where the majority of students have affluent parents isn't a huge advantage is kidding themselves. I grew up very middle class and can't even imagine how narrow my outlook would have been coming out of a school like Penn State. You can't put a value on
being surrounded by friends who have parents that are extremely successful in the business world. Forget the job contacts, simply being dialed in professionally is huge. And it compounds when you enter the work world and your social circle includes their siblings and friends from home who come from successfull families as well. You're not going to have this at Penn State unless you deliberately cultivate friendships with people who can help you on your way and if you're that nakedly ambitious it's probably all the more reason not to go there.</p>

23

<p>Two questions:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Which is better for FINANCE, Lehigh or Villanova?</p></li>
<li><p>Which is better for FINANCE, Lehigh or Penn State's Smeal?</p></li>
</ol>

24

<p>Lehigh > PSU for all aspects of business.</p>

<p>I don't know about specific programs at nova, but i know that Lehigh has exceptional Accounting and Finance programs.</p>

25

<p>Hey Effrum, can you explain how it's possible Lehigh is not even in the Top 50 for undergrad business according to US News?</p>

<p>Top</a> US Undergraduate Business Schools</p>

<p>Could it be that they just forgot about Lehigh?</p>

26

<p>We definitely discussed this in the PSU vs. Lehigh thread. USnews is the most well respected ranking and it definitely places Penn State's businnes program above Lehigh's. I am not sure why people keep trying to reference businessweek, an inferior ranking.</p>

<p>"Anyone who thinks being able to say "I went to Penn State" will hold the same value as "I went to Lehigh" is kidding themselves." </p>

<p>That's a hell of a statement coming from someone that obviously graduated from Lehigh (MrMountainhawk). Spare me buddy. You need to get off that high horse. Lehigh is definitely not some Ivy league school. Lehigh is in the 30s of the national university rankings, while Penn State University Park is in the 40s. There is not some huge difference, depsite what the mountainhawk would have you believe. I know plenty of people with more than enough money that picked Penn State over Lehigh, and it was not some tough decision that they thought they would regret. Penn State will definitely carry a better name than Lehigh, especially since our alumni are everywhere. Sorry, but Penn State is not full of poor and unconnected people. There are plenty of ambitious and wealthy people at Penn State. I am sure more New Yorkers would have heard of Penn State than Lehigh, but I would really not consider it an insult if some snobby New Yorkers didn't like where you went to school.</p>

27

<p>With all due respect, attempting to elevate the USNews rankings is silliness. I spent MANY moons at PSU, and be assured the College of Bus Admin is one huge factory, cranking out marketing reps and would be accountants like hotcakes. There is little selectivity, it's THE major cash cow for the U. and has some wonderful profs, the vast majority of whom are dedicated (or need to be) to journal pubs and mickey mouse research. It is a fine, run of the mill undergrad business program with very little to distinguish it aside from many successful grads ... which says nothing about the quality or nature of their undergrad education. It simply illustrates that there are literally 10s of thousands of bright, capable students passing thru the doors of Smeal and you know what ... a lot of them come out as bright, capable graduates who go on to decent careers as accountants, controllers, a few in Wall St. (very few compared to the big time finance schools of which PSU is not one, altho they wanna be). It's a computer model ... good stuff in, good stuff out. Ask any CBA student how many classes they had under 40 students, 20?, 10? They'll laugh at you.</p>

<p>There is one highly notable undergrad major that is a virtual step child of the PSU undergrad business program (because it's highly pragmatic, not as "lofty" in its research and pubs ... they tend to be very "applied" type pieces) and that's business logistics. It's one of a handful of top shelf undergrad programs in the country ... Tenn, IU, Illinois, a few others ... And unlike accounting, marketing, finance, insurance/real estate (which is like the proverbial flea on the draft horse's behind in terms of students, profs, recognition, etc.), B Log is much more student-friendly and focused. Why? Because very few students have a clue what blog is about UNTIL they take the required intro course. And they've traditionally put their very best prof in this intro course and the result is that a great many students switch into this area, do very well, get multiple job offers, etc. </p>

<p>So nothing against the other areas ... they're just not very student focused in my opinion. And while Happy Valley is, well, "happy", when one really begins to analyze the educational process, it really becomes a tough sell and cannot even be compared to a Nova, Lehigh, CMU, Bucknell, etc. It's apples and bananas. And the stats reveal that. Now, as a Big 11 u, be assured you'll see WAY MORE refereed journal article citations from PSU than any of the others. Even CMU. Again, it's merely a function of quantity, not qualitative. But PSU can be one really fun place with an amazingly few weirdos and oddballs for a u with 75K students. </p>

<p>But these notions can be tough for "we are" Penn Staters, a great many who love Happy Valley, the Skeller, and bluenwhite t shirts ... and every other piece of clothing one can imagine.</p>

<p>btw, THE MAJOR flaw in trying to establish a top shelf biz program in Happy Valley? It's in Happy Valley. That's principally why the MBA program will be good, but never great. Conversely, the Exec Ed program can be pretty darn good in certain areas ... because a lot of workworld execs LOVE getting away from the subway and skyscrapers and coming to the land of JoePa for a week or 2 ... maybe even bring the fam ... in hopes of a glimpse of the octegenaric owl. Or maybe carousing College Ave in search of that seedy or shady bar that might fuel one's "dark" side. It's all there, disguised as ... well, "happy."</p>

28

<p>I decided to look into the average startign salaries for both Lehigh and Smeal, and i found that the median startig nsalary for a Lehigh business grad is $50,000 ( Lehigh University - UR News Story: 1757 ) and the median for a Smeal grad is $41,400 ( Pennsylvania State University Undergrad Profile: Careers and Alumni Affairs )</p>

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<p>im 100% with you jec, all these people posting on this thread are either a) lehigh students/graduates or b) spoiled rich kids who think public education is crap. us news is the most respectable source of rankings, and lil wayne fan, no, us news did not FORGET about lehigh, it is simply inferior to smeal</p>

30

<p>mdelanoy12 - did you not read my previous post? If a 20% higher average starting salary doesn't show that Lehigh beats Smeal out, idk what does.</p>

<p>I guess to some of you guys, what US News has to say is more important than the actual money you make out of college</p>

31

<p>hey effrum, what's lehigh's alumni network like?? anything like penn state's?</p>

<p>NOPE!</p>

32

<p>i'd take the 20% larger income over the alum network. How many of those alums are on wall street?</p>

33

<p>This is an interesting thread. My son was accepted to both schools. We researched Lehigh extensively- even had lunch with a professor. My son's choice boiled down to Lehigh with a BIG scholarship or PSU honors with multiple scholarships . A few things:
1) I worked on Wall St for quite a few years. Neither school has a reputation there - we're not talking Wharton here. Wall St is very elitist and both schools don't make the cut. Not even close really. Some grads might make it there but it's really tough..if they do make it, most are in back office jobs.
2) Our lunch with the Lehigh professor was very informative. Nice guy. He told us PSU vs Lehigh is a tough choice...he knew many of the professors at PSU and was impressed with Smeal. He also told us many of the grads from the Lehigh business school are focused in accounting. The career stats confirm this. Take a look at BWeeks summary.
3) My son also sat in on a very large business class at Lehigh. Teacher had a strong accent...couldn't understand him. First impressions were not good.<br>
4) Effrum, you keep mentioning the average salaries. First of all, it's 46,500 (PSU) vs 52,000 Lehigh. Accounting folks are more in demand and get higher salaries - so there's a possible explanation.
5) WhistlePig - your insight is appreciated but I believe it's a bit dated. Business Logistics is now Supply Management. With the honors program, many classes are small. My son's intro Accounting class was 25 people. He's had a couple of big lecture hall classes, economics and MIS. He has a dedicated advisor. So, it's not a factory for everyone. Even for those outside the honors program, upper level classes get MUCH smaller. And there are many specialty class choices - more than there would be in a small school.
6) I really don't care about the rankings...I believe they're flawed. But look at the student comments in the BW section and you get a flavor for the student experience. Students at both schools are very positive. Career planning gets very high marks at PSU.
7) Football...no comparison at all. Went to ND/PSU this year. Awesome experience. If you like sports, PSU wins hands down
8) Reputation. Lehigh an elite school? You must run in different circles than I do. It's a fine school but certainly not elite. Doesn't impress many here in my neighborhood. Better rep than PSU? Perhaps. It really depends on who you talk to. Just because it's private doesn't mean it's better.<br>
OK - last point. If it was up to me, I would have chosen Lehigh. I like the smaller environment and thought the business school was good. Our son chose PSU. He loves it, is doing very well, and will have tons of cash saved up when he graduates. And no, so far, not a "factory" experience. Good ROI I would guess....</p>

34

<p>In terms of the input you're receiving here you'll have to weigh the biases of the Lehigh-affiliated posters versus the rationalizations of people connected in one way or another to what is undquestionably the most common safety school among people who attend Lehigh.</p>

<p>While I give toneranger an "A for effort" with regard to above the fray posturing, it is hard not to detect an air of disingenuousness. I'm certainly curious as to exactly what circles you run in, what your neighborhood is and what your status on Wall Street was because you come across as someone endeavoring to create a false impression of how well situated you are to offer insight in this regard. For instance, I'd hate to think this is coming from a bored suburban homemaker in Pennsylvania who spends an inordinate amount of time on college confidential but once parlayed a SUNY degree into a stretch in the secretarial pool at an investment banking firm. </p>

<p>I think it is wonderful that your son followed his heart when choosing a school. It takes a certain courage to go somewhere beneath the opportunities afforded by your achievements but I have no doubt that, among other things, the savings windfall and seven home football games against the likes of Temple and Coastal Carolina as well as the annual loss to Michigan will make it worthwhile for him. Of course I'm being a little snarky, but if your son is as exceptional as you perceive him to be then he made a bold and confident decision which he will never regret. </p>

<p>Many who attend LU also followed their heart when choosing it over more high prestige schools. Though curiously enough the ones lured by financial inducements are not typically in the position where Lehigh and PSU were the best schools they were admitted to. Perhaps a little elaboration here would make your efforts seem a little more tailored towards helping kids with questions and less about rationalizing/defending your son's decision.</p>

35

<p>OK. Here we go.
1) Not a secretary, far from it. VP at a major investment bank if it makes any difference. Right on the SUNY degree - great job reading my prior posts. Sorry if that's not impressive to you...being a state school and all.<br>
2) I live in a prestige oriented area. Ivy schools, Stanford, MIT get attention from these folks - kinda like the same attitude I got when I worked in IB in NY.
3) The honors college at PSU is much harder to get into than Lehigh. That's a fact. It's an excellent program and makes the comparison to PSU that much harder. There are many students in the program who turned down offers to Cornell and other Ivies. The grads schools and jobs these kids go onto are very impressive.<br>
4) My s was and is a good student. I did not paint him as exceptional, although his grades and scores were excellent. This attracted many scholarship opportunities, including Lehigh.<br>
5) I don't think I have to name the schools he was accepted to but I can say that he was accepted to a couple of top 30 schools - and was rejected by a couple of Ivies.<br>
6) My intent was not to rationalize my son's decision. As I said, it was HIS decision. I actually preferred Lehigh and was more than willing to pay for it. But I think it's fair to say that it was a TOUGH decision. Lehigh is NOT an Ivy - and in my opinion, does not carry a big-time name. Perhaps it's because I worked in an industry where names counted for too much - but I have a right to express my perspective on this.
7) To anyone evaluating both schools: Visit, sit in on classes, walk around. Go were it fits. I don't think it's fair to call PSU a factory. And I don't think it's quite accurate to paint Lehigh as an elite private business school. There's a middle ground here.
8) Snark all you want about football...it's a great aspect of PSU that creates incredible school spirit and pride.
9) We have a number of kids who go to Lehigh every year from my son's high school. It's a good school. But I don't see kids turning away Ivies or other higher prestige schools for this choice. Just don't.
9) So how about you share some details about your background? So we can tell how objective your postings are...</p>

36

<p>Just 4 points ...
1. Yea, I'm stuck in the 90s. Blog is now "supply chain mgmt" or something like that. Pt. still remains. It's the single most notable program in the Smeal prortfolio. On the other end, the MIS or whatever they call the quantitative guys these days have had monumentally poor track record as a group. Simply too esoteric for most businesses. Tons ... and I mean TONS of capable, successful accountants ... because there are always TONS of accounting majors who are bright, capable. And when they graduate, they remain bright, capable.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>While it's all a beauty contest (and that doesn't mean it's not very important ... ask the past few winners of the American Idol gig), Lehigh ain't Slippery Rock and it ain't PSU in terms of perception. We are not enamored with the LU campus or its locale, but it's big time in terms of perception and selectivity. To suggest otherwise is naive. True, it's not Princeton, nor is anyplace else. It's the next tier down which ain't too shabby.</p></li>
<li><p>She's right about the Honors College @ PSU in terms of some of the kids there, but unfortunately they're like a drip in the ocean. Nice but for the masses, essentially so what, ho hum. Ironically, it's simply trying to place a Lehigh type environment in terms of registration, selectivity, elite opportunities, teaching/advising/research/instruction within th ocean of blue ... and white. It's like saying ... the traditional Penn State experience that the VAST majority receive ... is not sufficient to attract, educate and retain the top shelf kids. And they're right. That's the sole reason that the Chairman of Merrill Lynch (and former COB of PSU) said "we gotta do this" to get the Wall Street kids to come and graduate from PSU. So he and they did.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>With something like 20+ campuses, nearly 80,000 students, and on and on and on ... much as she hopes and suggests its not a "factory" ... well the numbers tell the tale. And it ain't pretty.</p>

<p>As has been noted on here and elsewhere, ironically, a Penn State research prof in higher education edited a somewhat monumental expose about the state of higher ed, noting that well over 80% of the masses are now matriculating to PSU type places not for their notable education, especially at the undergraduate level, but for their relatively cheaper cost ... as duly noted by the toneranger in her familial situation. The report indicates the vast majority of students are receiving the vast majority of their education in a passive, lecturing/note taking type of environment where TAs know the students better than the prof. That is most certainly the general experience at Penn State Main.</p>

<p>But no matter how one hopes, wishes, strives to portray these monolithical institutions (OHio State, MI State, MI, IU, MINN, Rutgers, UW, UCLA, Berkeley, and on and on) as warm fuzzy student-focused places, well the truth of the matter is so apparently somewhere else. btw, 2 PSU degrees on my wall. Loved being there, more rah rah than any 3 people could stand at least on Sat afternoons. We get back there many times a year. </p>

<p>But trying to sell the notion that it's not a factory production for undergrads at its essence is silly. I don't know what it's been of late, but during one stretch, over a period of 15 years or so, all but a few of the student determined "profs of the year" failed to get tenure. Why so? Obviously they were and no doubt remain superior instructors. Simply one reason ... NONE get tenured or promoted primarily on the basis of outstanding student teaching. The fact is that if a young prof spends too much time with undergraduate students, he/she is headed for Susquehanna or maybe even Lehigh. It truly is publish or perish. And most, no matter how talented, are not fully successful on both fronts.</p>

<p>But we all must rationalize these situations and make the most of whatever we decide ... Lehigh or Penn State or West Chester or ... </p>

<p>And the good news about it all is that there are n'er do wells who went to Princeton and there are investment banking VPs who went to SUNY @ Cobleskill. There are great teachers who went to Slippery Rock and there are total duds and alcoholics who went to Penn State. There are CPA partners who went to Butler County Community College then commuted to Pitt. There are US presidents who went to Soutwest Texas State and Eureka!!! College. (One of the greatest, in fact.) And there are many presidents from Yale, some not worth spitting on if they were on fire. </p>

<p>In the end ... there is only one somewhat defining answer. Whadya think about your years, did they provide some opportunities, did you connect with others who helped to carry you along. Othern that, it's a crapshoot, for the most part. But we do like to be justified in all of this.</p>

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<p>WP - You have some good points. To be very honest, I'm not sure my son would have seriously considered PSU if it wasn't for the honors college and all the scholarship perks. Has it made a difference? Sure. He's had a number of very small classes and engaged professors, mixed in with a few lecture halls. He's happy there because he wanted a big bustling sports-oriented school - but also wanted some personal attention. And the opportunities are endless for motivated students.
That said, based, I think it's not quite fair to lump all big state schools together. I went to SUNY and the differences I see at PSU are significant. The professors are more welcoming to those who reach out, the physical plant is beautiful, and the spirit is high. The campus is huge but but somehow it doesn't feel that way. Engineering, business,science and many other programs are well regarded by many. And for the most part, the kids there LOVE the school and show great pride. Retention and graduation rates are good. This is not even close to my experience at big NY state school. So i guess there a different kinds of "factories" huh?
It seems like this argument is boiling down to big vs small, and those voting for Lehigh are singing the praises of the small environment. That's fine. I actually like the idea of smaller classes and teachers who like to teach. But big schools offer a different set of choices and experiences - and may be a better fit for some kids.<br>
All in all, kids and parents need to look at the full picture. Academic environment, social environment, cost, distance, etc. To us, brand name was NOT a factor for Lehigh or for the other top 30 schools my s was accepted to. Just don't think it's there for those schools...unlike HYP and a few more.<br>
Justifying my sons choice? Think what you want. If he chose Lehigh (like I urged him to), I would still be on these boards talking about how it was a tough choice. Not bashing the path not taken...</p>

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<p>"It takes a certain courage to go somewhere beneath the opportunities afforded by your achievements.."</p>

<p>MrMountainHawk, get over yourself. You act like you got some ivy league education and followed it up with a pulitzer. You went to lehigh. You talk down to his SUNY degree like you are some Harvard grad. It's a good school, but Lehigh was the safety of plenty of people at Penn State Main Campus. There were a large number of people that I knew in high school that struggled when they were choosing between Penn State and Lehigh. It has not been that long since I have been in high school, so I have seen which type of students going where. I don't know of anyone that passed on an ivy for lehigh, unless there was a ton of money thrown at them. Penn State Main and Lehigh have a significant overlap in applicants, and that's not just due to geography. The stats and students both schools are attracting just aren't that different. I am just having trouble understanding your seemingly condescending tone with the other people in this thread, considering you only went to lehigh. Anyway, I still think lehigh does have some very smart and not snobby almuni. I hope plenty of people continue to consider lehigh and that you are able to brainwash all of them into thinking it is just as good as Harvard or Princeton.</p>

39

<p>Ah ya gotta enjoy these "cerebral" debates. They clearly reflect our insecurities and desire for others to validate our lifetime decisions.</p>

<p>In the end, don't tell me how ugly my wife is, how stupid my offspring might be, how many dumbells are sitting in my row in Beaver Stadium, or how many ignorant Long Islanders are convinced that Lehigh is right next to godliness or at least a subset of Columbia even if his son didn't get in there or Hahvod or Duke or ... </p>

<p>Of course we must justify our choices. Marketers exposed that truth long ago, and have been taking advantage of that knowledge ... and us ... ever since. :eek:</p>

<p>But beauty constests are anything but logical. And I really like Miss Idaho's potatoes! ;) </p>

<p>Both Lehigh and Penn State are fine, sufficient places ... until my child flunks out, gets raped, gets booted from the team to which she was recruited, is rejected by the frat (does that ever happen anymore?), fails to get into med school, doesn't get that Wall St. job, etc.</p>

<p>One sorta "funny" side note ... on one side of the argument it goes like this ... "Well, my fab alumni network here on Easy Street was amazing in getting me in the door here at BigBucksBank for BigShots." </p>

<p>And on the other hand it's "Well, I got here DESPITE having no fellow alums within 50 miles of Easy Street." </p>

<p>So ... which might we infer received the genuinely superior education?</p>

40

<p>WP - You have a way with words...
I'm not bashing Lehigh - but I just don't agree that it's a highly prestigious or elite choice.
Both PSU and Lehigh have good engineering and business programs. Many kids have to make a decision on the two. Money does come into play - even if you have the cash to pay for Lehigh (we did). Is Lehigh worth worth 100K more? If my s made that choice, would I be posting on these boards about how it was money well spent? Guess it depends...
In any case, I think it's insulting for someone to imply that the decision to go to Lehigh over PSU is a "no brainer." Far from it. Practical, business oriented types will look at ROI. Fit is important too, and some kids like a big school environment.
It seems you think big schools are factories...so let's include schools like Cornell and Penn, and at a lower level, BU, Syracuse and GW in that bucket too. Lots of huge lecture halls and TAs there too. Cornell brags about their 1,000 person intro psychology class. No need to just pick on state schools... </p>

<p>There's a reason that Lehigh hands out big merit money to excellent students...same reason PSU has an honors program. Both schools latch onto some Ivy caliber students with that approach. And those ivy caliber students tend to do well....I agree with your there...wherever they go. </p>

<p>Last note. Our lunch with the business prof at Lehigh was highly informative. At the time, there was an ongoing controversy about a highly respected accounting professor who was denied tenure due to lack of publishing. All over the school newspapers too. The prof was discouraged...and indicated it was a sign of things to come. His thought was that the Lehigh admin was focusing more on research to get rankings up...and that the profs who like to teach were becoming dinosaurs. Sound familiar? So let's not paint Lehigh as a pure teaching environment. Maybe Slippery Rock?</p>