<p>For those coming up with defensive arguments as to why PISA doesn’t make the US educational system look good, I have just one suggestion: Compare the US top 95th percentile to other countries. </p>
<p>If these counter arguments- such as immigrants are to blame- were valid, you would see the top US students outperforming most other countries. They are not.</p>
<p>Oh, Starbright, do not take away our last little bit of self-esteem. Let us cling to the notion that our elite is still better than the world’s elite. After all isn’t that what that IB is supposed to deliver?</p>
<p>A University of Chicago professor did a study that notes how immigrants in the US do far better than their counterparts in origin countries including, I believe, Japan and Finland (don’t quote me on that specifically, but that’s the spirit of his argument).</p>
<p>I think there is a lot that can and should be done to make our education system much better than it is. I do think, however, that American education is among the better in the world. </p>
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<p>I think you hit the nail on the head – that is the problem in this country. If you are only at the 95th percentile, you are still closer to the vast middle class in this country than the actual “top” insofar as access to education, or anything else, is concerned.</p>
<p>The most appalling statistic I remember reading is the correlation between SAT scores and income. Obviously richer kids do better, but I thought that it ought to plateau off at 100,000 a year… 150,000 a year. No, it rises steadily even through the “250,000+” bracket. I wouldn’t be surprised if that top bracket was broken down to see the plateauing only start somewhere at 350,000 a year or more.</p>
<p>The elite in America is not its top 5%, sadly, but it’s top 2 (give or take a bit).</p>
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<p>The source of those statistics is none other than the self-reported income by STUDENTS on the SAT surveys. It is the same source that tells us that around 90 percent (or something close) have an A average in school. </p>
<p>While there is little doubt that the wealth (as a proxy for higher education) of the parents should correlate to the higher academic achievement of their children, those numbers have to be taken with a huge grain of salt.</p>
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Alright, point taken, but the phenomenon has been confirmed (though not to the same extent) by studies of SAT scores by school and socioeconomic status of those students in the aggregate which will not be nearly as statistically flawed as the the SAT report. Even then, I wonder whether there really is a big selection bias on the report… You could at least say with a fair amount of confidence that people who think that they are rich do better than those that think they are poor, right?</p>
<p>My point is that the disparity in this country has reached a level that even the “top 5%” doesn’t seem to mean much. On the other hand I do think that the system is a lot better than people give it credit for, specifically for emigre.</p>
<p>Fwiw, one might think that your position on the correlation of SAT scores with wealth and the “elite” disparity is … a further indictment of the public system of education of the United States. </p>
<p>Isn’t the public system of education supposed the biggest equalizer, and isn’t the system supposed to educate everyone? </p>
<p>In so many words, this is why some believe --including me-- that our system of education is such a wasteful testament to mediocrity. In 1983, some sounded the alarm in the form of A Nation At Risk. Almost thirty years, we only have made a turn for the worse.</p>
<p>Too test-focused? Yes. But the worst? Not sold on this just yet.</p>
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Yes and no. In an absolute sense, I am very inclined to agree with you. Relatively, though, emigre do far better in the US than they do in origin countries. Even the “smart” immigrants from Asia (especially India… though I think that’s a quite unfair comparison because Indians in the US are better off than Indians in India to a much greater extent than any other population).</p>
<p>The playing field might not be level when you compare rich Americans and poor Americans, but I think there’s merit in the argument that Hispano-Americans do better than Hispanics in general, that sino-Americans do better than Chinese, and if I recall correctly even the Japanese and Finnish do better than their brothers and sisters at home!</p>
<p>X-I used to be able to do lots more math in my head too–but then along came the HP 12C and that just faded. Now I agree younger kids never learned that little skill but did they really need to? I can allow them slack on that. My brain is full of 50 years of songs and maps of most major US cities. Never used a GPS yet but pretty good with a map if needed.</p>
<p>Know the Monty Python Spam song? Sometimes I just replace “Spam” wth STEM, STEM, STEM, STEM.</p>
<p>Our school systems have taken on far more responsibilities than when I was a kid. And, somewhere between our eager focus on test scores, desire to push as many kids toward STEM as we can, and “no child left behind,” we’ve created what I sometimes feel is mass confusion. Add to that, our inability to properly and consistently fund education.</p>
<p>I think the truth is, some schools are outstanding, and some schools are just warehouses where kids who are less mediocre than others get A’s and think they are learning enough to go to college.</p>
<p>Not to mention the vast numbers of kids who drop out for various reasons. What kind of job can you get these days if you don’t even finish HIGH SCHOOL? Right.</p>
<p>There are a gazillion reasons why comparison’s are not valid. Some countries only provide higher levels of education to kids who are deemed talented from a young age. Some countries only test their highest performing kids. Some countries meet the health care needs of all children. Some countries make sure all kids have heat, electricity and food. </p>
<p>I think we put too much blame on schools. Schools have no control over parental involvement, parental value on education, poverty levels in their communities, crime in their communities, etc. Kids learn best when they are healthy, well fed, have low stress levels and have parents who value an education and are involved in their childrens’ educational process. Teachers and schools can’t do all that and can’t be held accountable for all that either.</p>
<p>There is not a single problem but a ton of them. Uniform education standards is one of the big issues, but not the biggest. The biggest issues as far as I can see are:</p>
<ul>
<li>lack of parental involvement </li>
<li>excessive reliance on testing </li>
<li>incredible difference between consecutive grades at times</li>
<li>too much focus on grades</li>
<li>too much focus on athletics / EC’s</li>
<li>incredible variation between teachers</li>
</ul>
<p>: : : :</p>
<p>I could write a mile long list… ain’t gonna get fixed…</p>
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<p>I went back to finish my BA after 25 years; one graduation requirement was to take a writing exam. Here I sat in this big classroom, writing an essay without the benefit of a spell-checker, being forced to write in sequence with the first draft being the final wording and without benefit of having Google on hand for minor fact verification. How positively retro!</p>
<p>There is something incongruous about the president of one of the best universities in the world publicly stating that its students come from the worst education system in the world. What does that even mean? That Princeton can transform the worst product into the best product like some sort of superhuman time machine? Or does it mean that being the worst isn’t really all that bad or irreparable? Or something else?</p>
<p>We should just stop taking those international tests, then.</p>
<p>LOL, Xiggi, I’ve had the same thought about the Pyramid game show! </p>
<p>I’m very happy with the excellent public schools my kids attend.</p>
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<p>The best few individuals in a generally bad system can be pretty good.</p>
<p>Yawn…when the rest of the world starts educating all of it’s children, from the severely mentally handicapped on up from age 5-18 in the pre-undergrad system and counts those kids into their statistical data and the US falls outside of the top 10% or so, I will worry then. For now, the US system is unique to the world because of the above. If we wanted to be like the rest of the world ALL schools would teach using the rote method and not allow students to learn to become free thinkers-think “teach to the test to the extreme”. </p>
<p>In the US until we address the real issue behind failing schools (and it isn’t the teachers or the administrations) we will see numbers like this continuing. Those of us in great school districts with high numbers of high achieving students know that these numbers are not even close to reality for us. We see the foreign exchange students come in and really struggle because they just don’t have the background education our kids do…</p>
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<p>I think it is something else, bay. Shirley M. Tilghman is Canadian. She graduated from one of Canadas very best universities and is a world class molecular biologist. From what I learned from friends and family members who attended that fine institution, it gives no preference to anyone and the grading is tough but fair. Most impressive of all, it never had a Jewish quota.</p>
<p>This is where Tilghmans perspective comes from. We are right back to what starbright said in post 21 again, arent we?</p>
<p>Starbright is wrong that looking at the top 5% is a “good” way to compare systems. Look at the middle 40% or so–where are THOSE kids statistically. That population is the bread and butter of your society. They are the worker bees that drive your economy. In most countries those kids are in unskilled jobs having completed their education at the age of 16 or 17. In the US those kids are in highly skilled jobs requiring advanced education. They are your middle and upper management people in the business world, etc. Many of those people are doctors, engineers, etc. as well.</p>