one year later--it doesn't matter

College Search & Selection
1

<p>this message is dedicated to anyone who is stressed out by the college admissions process.</p>

<p>i am about to start my second year at an ivy league school. this morning, my father burst in to my room clutching the latest issue of US News, devastated that my ivy league institution had dropped slightly in the rankings. this reminded me of those wonderful few years in high school spent agonizing over numbers, extra-curriculars, prestige, and the college admissions "game," which is the least-fun game I've ever played (and my grandma once made me play Bridge with her, so that's saying something). the early morning wake up call motivated me to write this message to all of you, imparting some wisdom i learned over the course of this year--wisdom i wish i'd known when i was in all of your shoes: that the name on your diploma really doesn't matter.</p>

<p>that's right. it's a bold claim, i know, but i also know a ton of ivy-educated waitresses--no joke. the name on your diploma will make no difference in your life, in the long term. the only factor that will come into play is your own ability, ambition, and talent.</p>

<p>because many talented students do end up at top schools, students from these school often appear to do better in the job market. don't be fooled though, it's not the schools that are turning out this success--it is the students. witness the studies comparing average lifetime earnings of ivy league grads to lifetimes earnings of state school grads who got into the ivies but chose not to attend.</p>

<p>there are also a lot of dumb people at top schools. about 1/2-1/3 the people are dumb, and got in for non-academic reasons, even at the most "academic" schools. in spite of their degrees, these people never do anything great in the world. it only takes an employer a few weeks to figure out that the stellar diploma masks a less stellar ability-level. in the end, ability shines through, and education cannot create ability--it can only nurture it. there are great teachers and classes at colleges all over this country; it doesn't take a "top tier" school to turn out a brilliant mind.</p>

<p>as a tour guide this summer, i saw first-hand the high strung mothers and fathers asking trivial questions at info sessions and scrutinizing admissions policies like crazy people. to the embarrassed children of these parents, I have the following advice:</p>

<p>-Choose an experience, not a name. Go for the college experience that you can look back on when you're 65 and laugh about. Go to the college where you'll learn AND have fun. Fun is so important. On your deathbed, you won't care what your college was ranked in US News--you'll care about the friends you made and how you took that crazy trip to new york the weekend before finals (central park never looks more enticing than on the eve of finals...).</p>

<p>-Trust in your own abilities. This sounds so cliche, but if you can believe in yourself and push yourself and take control of your own destiny, no external factors can keep you from success. Diplomas, scholarships, awards--all these things are secondary when you know your own talent and self-worth.</p>

<p>-Don't listen to your parents. Choosing a college could be the first major decision you make in your life. Make sure it's your decision. Only you know what you want and need. Pretend to take your parents advice to pacify them, but in the end do what you know is the best for you.</p>

<p>-Know what makes you happy. Maybe college rankings really do make you happy, but for most people, I'd guess happiness is a function of different things than the petty whims of print media. If learning, experiencing new things, challenging your limits, and devoping relationships with great people makes you happy, then you're in luck, because there are opportunities for this type of blissful euphoria at colleges all up and down those rankings--it's all about finding your niche and the environment that suits you best.</p>

<p>I don't know if anyone in this forum will read this post or listen to my advice, but if just one person hears me and changes their outlook on the process in which they're participating, then my time writing this will have been worthwhile. there is no perfect school. there are many great schools. stressing out about college admissions and rankings is an irrational waste of time and cortisol. everyone already knows what i've said, but it's easy to lose track in the whirlwind of rankings and due dates and unsolicited advice.</p>

<p>just remember--relax, because in the end, it really doesn't matter.</p>

2

<p>CAN I GET AN AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
hell yeah, the best post of my life.</p>

3

<p>great post!!!</p>

4

<p>Reminds me of all the tenured profs who tell students not to sweat grades. If the choice of college doesn't matter so much, I suppose Jason would like to put his sheepskin where his mouth is and transfer to Southwest North Dakota Bible College.</p>

5

<p>thank you!!!!</p>

6

<p>One year? Come back to us after the full four years. I know several people in the ivy leagues who didn't develop enthusiasm after a year of introductory classes. Then they got to do research with nobel prize winners and people of that caliber in super high-class facilities. Needless to say their opinions changed a lot. </p>

<p>Of course, that name on the diploma, no matter how superficial it may seem, does matter, though moreso with graduate work. Think about it this way, you're a great student either way, but what is more impressive to employers and graduate school, a reccomendation from a good-but-not-renowned professor in a small college, or one from a nobel lauerate in an ivy school? </p>

<p>Nobody will say that ivy schools will make a person, but it does matter to an extent.</p>

7

<p>
[quote]
what is more impressive to employers and graduate school, a reccomendation from a good-but-not-renowned professor in a small college, or one from a nobel lauerate in an ivy school?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>In either case an an extraordinary and detailed recommendation from the unreknowned professor trumps a mediocre one from the nobel laureate (or, very likely, the latter's secretary). I know someone who asked Michael Dukakis for a recommendation after taking a seminar with him at Northeastern. Dukakis loved the kid and promised an excellent rec. On this basis he applied to Harvard Law...months later after his Harvard rejection he received Dukakis' letter back...it had been written in a bland, mediocre fashion by an administrative assistant.</p>

8

<p>i've got to agree with TourGuide's sentiments.</p>

<p>the simple fact is, at the end of the day, you will be graduating in a couple of years with an Ivy League degree - putting you in a very select group of people indeed.</p>

<p>it's easy to tell people to "chill out" when you are sitting up on high in your IVorY Tower where 99% of other high school graduates in the US will never get a chance to study.</p>

<p>does that mean once you become an Ivy graduate that you can just kick back, put your legs up on your desk and watch the $$$ roll in? of course not. they don't call the graduation ceremony "commencement" (or beginning) for nothing. </p>

<p>so let's be absolutely clear. you are sitting in an enviable pole position compared to your peers - if you happen to end up a loser in life, it certainly won't be the fault of the esteemed institution you are so quick to dismiss - in fact, any future failings will come in spite of that fact.</p>

<p>you've got a lot of life to live in front of you - if i were you, i'd be counting my blessings at this point.</p>

9

<p>In either case an an extraordinary and detailed recommendation from the unreknowned professor trumps a mediocre one from the nobel laureate (or, very likely, the latter's secretary). I know someone who asked Michael Dukakis for a recommendation after taking a seminar with him at Northeastern. Dukakis loved the kid and promised an excellent rec. On this basis he applied to Harvard Law...months later after his Harvard rejection he received Dukakis' letter back...it had been written in a bland, mediocre fashion by an administrative assistant.</p>

<p>Assuming everything else is relative, a rec from a nobel laureate trumps an unknown guy's, and that is the context here, considering the topic creator sought to convince people that the only matters is you, and college really doesn't matter. And that was the point I was trying to make, get two copies of a great rec and have an unkown professor sign one and the other by a renowned professor. The latter one has more power regardless of who you are.</p>

10

<p>
[quote]
because many talented students do end up at top schools, students from these school often appear to do better in the job market. don't be fooled though, it's not the schools that are turning out this success--it is the students. witness the studies comparing average lifetime earnings of ivy league grads to lifetimes earnings of state school grads who got into the ivies but chose not to attend.</p>

<p>there are also a lot of dumb people at top schools. about 1/2-1/3 the people are dumb, and got in for non-academic reasons, even at the most "academic" schools. in spite of their degrees, these people never do anything great in the world. it only takes an employer a few weeks to figure out that the stellar diploma masks a less stellar ability-level. in the end, ability shines through, and education cannot create ability--it can only nurture it. there are great teachers and classes at colleges all over this country; it doesn't take a "top tier" school to turn out a brilliant mind.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm sorry, but by this (calvinistic) logic, why even go to school? Why even do the college thing? It won't improve anything. You are what you are whether you go anywhere and get a degree or not... hard working, bright people don't need to go to school, because they will succeed regardless of their academic achievements. And for those sorry sapps who just happen to be in the 1/2-1/3 dumb category, well, too bad for them, school won't be changing anything. I don't agree, I think where you go does matter, and makes a difference to an extent... along with what subjects you study, and how passionate you are about your particular major. All people are dumb in some things but brilliant in others, given the opportunity and correct environment.</p>

11

<p>I am shocked at the backlash to this post...it's probably the smartest thread created in the last 6 months on CC, and you people are bashing it.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I'm sorry, but by this (calvinistic) logic, why even go to school? Why even do the college thing? It won't improve anything. You are what you are whether you go anywhere and get a degree or not... hard working, bright people don't need to go to school, because they will succeed regardless of their academic achievements.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It's a think called learning. It's a thing called education. And believe it or not, sometimes you might learn more going to Texas A&M than going to Harvard. Or even, San Diego State.</p>

<p>Having a bachelore's degree essentially is proof that you've learned something. The degree itself doesn't mean much...but the truth is, you can learn a lot from a lot of schools.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Reminds me of all the tenured profs who tell students not to sweat grades. If the choice of college doesn't matter so much, I suppose Jason would like to put his sheepskin where his mouth is and transfer to Southwest North Dakota Bible College.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Did you get a 200 on your SAT Verbal? Because clearly, you can't read. The point of his post was not that what college a person attends doesn't matter at all, nor that the Ivy League is a terrible thing and not worth attending...but rather, there are other schools all over the US News rankings chart that provide students with enough oppurtunities for them to learn and grow, and perhaps even some with more oppurtunities than the Ivy League.</p>

<p>I'm guessing, therefore, he hasn't transfered to a Southeast Bible Busting school because he likes where he is, even if he believes he can get an equivalent education at, say, Syracuse University.</p>

<p>
[quote]
One year? Come back to us after the full four years. I know several people in the ivy leagues who didn't develop enthusiasm after a year of introductory classes. Then they got to do research with nobel prize winners and people of that caliber in super high-class facilities. Needless to say their opinions changed a lot.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh Puh-leez. There are tons of fascinating reaserchers and professors out there who don't have a Nobel Prize, and never will get one. Their lack of a Nobel Prize doesn't devalue their studies, nor what you can gain from them.</p>

<p>All this being said...I do plan to apply to some Ivy League schools. But not because of prestige, but rather, because I actually like them. And if I don't get in there, then I'll be very happy at many other Tier 1, 2, or even 3 or 4 schools.</p>

12

<p>Lesson of this very longwinded post: go to the school that best fits you.</p>

<p>-The end.</p>

13

<p>If I were Us News I'd play games like put some school like George Washington U. as #1 for one year so that everyone applies. Then the next year I'd drop it down to #143 or something and laugh at all the rising Sophomores at GWU who will probably email me with death threats.</p>

14

<p>I think Newsweek did something like that with Skidmore. Will be fascinating to see the effect the Newsweek article has on Skidmore's applications.</p>

15

<p>This is a great post, I had to save it on my hard drive as I believe it will come in handy in the future.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Then they got to do research with nobel prize winners and people of that caliber in super high-class facilities. Needless to say their opinions changed a lot.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>A great researcher does not necessarily make a great instructor.</p>

16

<p>The point of this thread is not that Ivy League schools are bad. Rather, it is that that if you choose to attend one, do so because you like the school and not because of the prestige. I think the post is basically a criticism of people who ask, "What are my chances at HYPSM?". These five schools are so different that it is almost impossible for someone to be a good fit for all five. Whoever said that prestige matters, you are correct. But when making a college choice, consider other factors in addition to that.</p>

17

<p>Maybe people did not read what I wrote. Here it is again:</p>

<p>Lesson of this very longwinded post: go to the school that best fits you.</p>

18

<p>I don't think the OP was longwinded, it is detailed and elaborate. And when it comes to colleges, this is obviously necessary.</p>

19

<p>"A great researcher does not necessarily make a great instructor."</p>

<p>Yes, and a great researcher does not necessarily make a bad instructor either.</p>

20

<p>I think that was implied in the statement… hence the "not necessarily" :rolleyes:</p>