<p>Yes, this post is strictly about career prospects. But, you know, during my first semester here, I saw a guy literally read aloud to the teacher the sparknotes on the Oresteia. You will quickly discover that, with the exception of some advanced seminars, the level of intellectual engagement at some Ivies is not as high as you’d think. Certainly not worth tens of thousands of extra dollars.</p>
<p>As others have pointed out, law schools and med schools give little, if any, preference to Ivy students. PhD programs want strong grades, recs, statement, and research. </p>
<p>If you get good financial aid, you should obviously go. If you are set on the small range of careers for which an Ivy degree is invaluable (finance, consulting, and so on), then go. Otherwise, attend a state school for your undergrad years and go to an Ivy for your postgraduate education. </p>
<p>It is actually surprising to me that some people found this advice so outrageous that they’d call me a ■■■■■. I thought these were pretty conventional ideas that just needed repeating.</p>
<p>It’s because the majority of active CC members are high school students or parents, not college students/recent grads who have familiarized themselves with how hiring or grad school admissions is evaluated. Go to any academic forum that is frequented by college students and what you’ve been saying is accepted common knowledge.</p>
<p>FROM A FINANCIAL POINT OF VIEW:
One should really match the amount of money they are willing to shell out for an education, proportionally to the field in which they plan to major in / do for a living. </p>
<p>For example, a stupid move would be to try and attend an Ivy if one wanted teach at the elementary school level. They cost almost 50k a year, and most of those types of teachers only make half of that in a single year.</p>
<p>One thing you’re ignoring is that there are many private, selective colleges and universities besides the 8 Ivy League schools. Small liberal arts colleges as a class have good track record for placements into professional schools and for preparing students for PhD programs. Of course, most of them are just about as expensive as Columbia.</p>
<p>Okay, obviously the OP isn’t a ■■■■■. I think his financial arguments are perfectly valid. For those stuck in that awkward place between lots of aid and no need for aid, you should think carefully about the benefit, financial or otherwise, of attending an Ivy versus a comparable public institution or a school that offers you scholarship money.</p>
<p>At most ivy league colleges, expected family contribution for the bottom half of family incomes is virtually zero. At Columbia if a family earns less than 60K a year, without extra-ordinary assets, they are expected to pay $0 per year, no loans, full ride:</p>
<p>for families earning say 200-300K+, a one time payment of 50-150K extra for your child to receive a better education / better pedigree might really not be too bad.</p>
<p>For upper middle class families, that 50-100K extra to attend a top private university or LAC instead of state school might not be worth it.</p>
<p>As another Columbia senior, I wholeheartedly disagree with:</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I don’t know which classes you’ve been taking, but every semester here, I’ve had some inspiring and insightful profs who blow me away and either teach me something valuable / change my beliefs substantially. To me, my expensive Columbia education has been worth it, by a mile, across a bunch of disciplines, and especially in econ classes, most senior friends at peer institutions will also agree.</p>
<p>What I strongly disagree with, is how wholeivyleague narrows down an ivy education to having only 5 possible sources of utility. Being around a more qualified/diverse student body, having closer access to more renowned professors, and opportunities for jobs and networking with alumni, are just some examples leading to significant benefits both tangibly and intangibly. </p>
<p>I think you need to actually graduate and, after a while, look back at how you’ve changed, in order to fully assess the value of a college education. So I argue that wholeivyleague (and me as well) cannot have a complete perspective on the value of an ivy education while we are still students. </p>
<p>But I will agree that if you need to take out significant sums in loans to go to ivy vs. state U, state U usually wins, unless you agree to wholeivyleague’s factors plus a few more.</p>
<p>^I agree with your last point. As an alum of both an Ivy and a state flagship, I can assure you that the intellectual engagement of the student body at an Ivy far exceeds that at a state u. Without question. More importantly, the ability to spend four years with fascinating and talented fellow students (in large part), whether truly intellectually engaged or not, at an elite university or LAC is, in my mind, priceless.</p>
<p>I have stated many times that if you can get a lot of financial aid, Ivies are worth it. My argument has been strictly about whether they are worth the investment for the many, many people who pay full price but do not know what exactly they are getting.</p>
<p>And while I have met many people who liked their courses at Columbia, I am not so sure that this is a function of an Ivy-caliber faculty as much as it is a function of college-level coursework in general. Sure, you can take econ with a rock star like Greg Mankiw at Harvard or flashy-coated Xavier here (who teaches intermediate macro), but is that really any more enlightening than taking econ with a dedicated professor in a state school? I am not sure about my classmates, but for me the real learning happened in my room with my textbook and some quiet music. The Xavier Econ Show was a distraction sometimes. </p>
<p>It is also well known that Ivy Leagues do not hire faculty based on their teaching record. They hire people with degrees from elite schools who published lots of books and articles. In fact, there is so much pressure to publish for some faculty (tenure requirements are insane) that I can’t imagine they give their students their all. Ivy Leagues cannot really guarantee the earth-shattering, life-changing educational experience everyone expects.</p>
<p>I wholeheartedly concur, OP, but don’t forget the benefits of the alumni network, even in fields outside of finance–that is a huge benefit (though of course state u’s have extensive and not unaccomplished alumni as well).</p>
<p>“At most ivy league colleges, expected family contribution for the bottom half of family incomes is virtually zero. At Columbia if a family earns less than 60K a year, without extra-ordinary assets, they are expected to pay $0 per year, no loans, full ride:”</p>
<p>The sailing isn’t quite so smooth… student contribution is still very significant. I have a buddy at SEAS with an EFC of 0, and yet Columbia still expects him, he himself, to pay 4,000+ dollars a year.</p>
<p>I don’t feel like doing the math, but it would take more than one job and a hell of a lot of hours to make that much, at minimum wage, and in the end, in all likelihood, the family will have to contribute a portion toward that burden or the student will have to take out loans.</p>
<p>Of course, a Columbia education is still worth it in that case, but I imagine that that sort of burden adversely impacts the entire experience.</p>
<p>I would put emphasis on the "before you pay 40-50,000/yr. part. A lot of kids from lower income families are given a lot of aid. Which again begs my question, since many kids from high EFC families have now made the decision that, at least in this economy, a 40-50,000/yr. school is a bad economic decision, do these schools really carry the same “weight” in prestige that they once did? A whole bracket of students are largely skirting their admissions pool…a bracket of student that is made up of the kids of professionals. The “super rich” still go. The less rich, academically talented still go, but the unlucky upper middle is packing off to State U because they think the high debt is too high risk.</p>
<p>Jason…as a wife of a doctor, it really does not take a reputation of an undergrad institution to get into most medical schools. And a doctor from Harvard makes exactly the same income as a doctor from the University of “Name State Here”. You need good grades. You need good test scores. And that is a function of your effort and ability…not the name of your school.</p>
<p>Not sure why you are picking on Ivy League schools over being “worth it.” They are not the most expensive colleges out there. They are certainly in the top tier cost-wise, but they are not at the very top. And they have a lot of company up there in the top tier. And unlike some of their bretheren in the cost stratosphere, the Ivys are very generous with the financial aid.</p>
<p>Let’s consider some examples: USC for instance. It’s a fine school and its tuition and cost of attendance are right up there with the Ivys. Is it “worth it?” There are dozens of similar non-Ivy examples.</p>
<p>The question shouldn’t be are the Ivys worth it. It should be are expensive private schools worth it?</p>
<p>In our area, 90% of the professionals went to either IU or Purdue…or if they are REALLY smart and affluent Catholics, Notre Dame. The networks advantage those schools, truthfully. I think the refrain that “it’s regional” is very very true.</p>
<p>To me, $4K/year is not a very onerous burden for the student contribution. My S earns half that in the summers alone, from a 10-week camp counseling job, which he loves. If you have any specialized skills (such as programming), which should not be too uncommon among Ivy or Ivy-caliber students, you should be able to land a job at much higher than minimum wage. Say you tutor math to affluent private school students. It shouldn’t be too hard to find them in the vicinity of an Ivy League school. At $25/hour (which I think is actually conservative), it would take 80 hours to make your $2K. About two hours per week, then summer employment for the other $2K.</p>