<p>In downstate IL, UIUC is considered the ‘dream school’ and if accepted, some kids will attend it without even visiting and not even looking into other options. Too overrated and not even good for some majors.</p>
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<p>LOL. They aren’t my data; I’m just going by the most recent figures supplied by the U.S. Department of Education that allow you to compare all schools.</p>
<p>But just to create some further context, here were the numbers of Illinois freshmen at some other, non-Big Ten public universities in the Fall of 2010:</p>
<p>U of Missouri 940
Iowa State 475
Western Michigan 273
Miami U (OH) 267
U of Wisconsin - Platteville 231
Arizona State 182
U of Colorado 171
U of Kansas 162
U of Arizona 159
U of Kentucky 142
Northern Michigan 129
Grand Valley State 107
Ball State 101
Central Michigan 92
MUST 84
Alabama 71
Colorado State 67
U of Texas 64
Kansas State 56
Auburn 55
Ole Miss 55
U of South Carolina 42
Pitt 41
U Montana 40
U of Tennessee 36
LSU 31</p>
<p>Nothing so very special about Alabama in that group, just one of any number of OOS publics that Illinois kids seem happy to attend. Especially when you add in the Big Ten numbers previously posted, it appears Illinois has something of an “anywhere but here” problem similar to that of New Jersey and Maryland: a large number of Illinois students just don’t find UIUC or their other in-state public options that attractive and leave the state in large numbers for both public and private schools, some of them stronger than UIUC, some not as strong. Again making Illinois, like New Jersey and Maryland, one of the top student-exporting states.</p>
<p>[By the way, I’ve got nothing against Alabama, and it may well be picking up some steam with its merit scholarships, but even with the more recent numbers you cite it doesn’t stand out as an especially notable destination for Illinois students; just one among many.]</p>
<p>I meet with prospective students and parents from IL on a regular basis. The story is the same every time…NIU, SIU, Ill State, EIU, etc are schools of last resort for solid (3.3 and above GPA, ACT in the 25-29 range) but not top students. Many are not quite admissable to UIUC or U Wisc for business and engineering so they look to Iowa, Iowa State, and Missouri. Many also find the humanities options at UIUC to be not so great and prefer Iowa for this.</p>
<p>Illinois has a serious problem with the reputation of their ‘tier 2’ state schools and it seems that just about anyone that can afford to, avoids them. I’ve seen parents literally beg and plead for additional scholarships so they can avoid NIU.</p>
<p>“Many are not quite admissable to UIUC or U Wisc for business and engineering so they look to Iowa, Iowa State, and Missouri. Many also find the humanaties options at UIUC to be not so great and prefer Iowa for this.”</p>
<p>This is what I see as well. In addition to the schools mentioned, these business/humanities kids lean toward IU (and Miami of Ohio, though it isn’t Big 10), and engineers toward Purdue.</p>
<p>Well, you also have to consider the sheer numbers of college students coming out of the chicago area. For example, UIUC, as BClintock pointed out enrolled 5,469 illinois students and could STILL export 4,651 students to schools like Wis, Mich and Indiana. UIUC does not accept every highly competitive student from the surrounding suburbs where the students are more than qualified. The state has only the one flagship university and an urban population that none of the other big ten states even touch. It’s not even slightly comparable.</p>
<p>I don’t believe UIUC is rolling. It has a priority app. date for the last few years.</p>
<p>bclinton:</p>
<p>It’s not unusual for a state to send many students to OOS publics in border states or states that are still very close by. Numbers tend to drop dramatically once you get more than about 300 miles away. </p>
<p>My point about old data was simply that. There is more recent data that shows over a 100% increase - that is significant because it means attending an OOS public that is about 700 miles away.</p>
<p>UIUC does have a priority date and have had it for a number of years. Until recently, UIC did do rolling admissions. I do not know what UIS does. The University of IL does have de-facto caps on OOS students. They are most strictly applied to UIC’s health care majors than anywhere else in the system. Even in the other colleges, the leaders do not want more than about 10% of the student population to be OOS. The irony is that the university also believes in socking it to the OOS students.</p>
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<p>Sure. Just two points. First, how many students are exported varies a great deal by state, and not just in proportion to state population. Illinois is one of the biggest exporters. And second, Illinois isn’t just sending large numbers of students to schools <300 miles away. Just look at the numbers of Illinois students going to Colorado and Arizona.</p>
<p>Oh, and by the way, from southern Illinois to northern Alabama is about 200 miles. Pretty much in the neighborhood. Though to be sure, Chicago is farther from Alabama.</p>
<p>Here, for comparison purposes, are data showing how many Michiganders enrolled as freshmen in other Big Ten schools in 2010. Michigan’s population is just over 75% that of Illinois, so we’d expect about 75% as many Michiganders going OOS in comparison to Illinoisans. But the actual difference in student exports is well over an order of magnitude.</p>
<p>Michigan freshmen enrolled at Big Ten schools in 2010 (Illinois numbers in parens):</p>
<p>Northwestern 81 (558)
Purdue 69 (557)
Indiana 59 (837)
Ohio State 46 (123)
Wisconsin 30 (676)
Penn State 27 (48)
Iowa 16 (1,589)
UIUC 15 (5,469)
Minnesota 15 (251)
Nebraska 1 (53)
Michigan 3,946 (319)
Michigan State 5,964 (249)</p>
<p>Total attending Big Ten schools: Michigan 10,254; Illinois 10,729</p>
<p>Total attending OOS Big Ten schools: Michigan 344; Illinois 4,702</p>
<p>Total attending OOS public Big Ten schools: Michigan 263; Illinois 4,702</p>
<p>LOL: Southernmost Illinois IS more southern. Drive time from Chicago to Cairo is about six hours due south, no?</p>
<p>However you want to term it, UIUC opens its admissions window, and it becomes “first come first served”. Student better get application in first week of September, no matter, to have best shot for admission. Plenty of latecomer overly-qualified Chicago suburban students don’t get admitted simply because too many kids from their HS have already been admitted to UIUC. This is case for students of selective-enrollment private college prep HSs too, where many if not most those students fit profile for UIUC admission and parents want their kid to go downstate.</p>
<p>Regarding Illinois students at Alabama, I know of many small (1000-3000) out-of-state LACs who have more Illinois students enrolled that Alabama’s 80 average-per-class.</p>
<p>Illinois’ 2nd tier colleges are poor candidates for a B+ student with decent but not stellar scores. These large mostly rural campuses are filled with partiers and oversized lecture halls. There’ve been gang, gun, and crime problems reported at many of them too; many upper-middle-income families no longer consider them to be a acceptable option, and do seek OOS alternatives. Truman State’s popular, in addition to Big 10 and Miami of Ohio. Enrollment at these 2nd-tier Illinois schools was reported to be “lower than capacity” for current school year. Only UIUC has full enrollment.</p>
<p>Basically, Bclintock, Illinois residents use the other big ten schools as their Michigan State.</p>
<p>Obviously with the death of the car industry, there is less money for out of state in Michigan than in the suburbs of chicago, where the cost of an out of state big ten college is just considered to be a part of raising the kids.</p>
<p>I’m not completely sure if it is “all about” the colleges so much as it has something to do with prosperity differences in the states themselves.</p>
<p>Now, with all the tax issues in illinois, we are likely to see a change in this, but there are a great many kids in the northern suburbs who preference the madison (or madtown as it is called) campus, or the ann arbor campus, or the IU campus, but for social reasons, frankly.</p>
<p>southern Illinois to northern Alabama is about 200 miles.</p>
<p>Well UAlabama isn’t in “northern Alabama”. The point isn’t to just cross the border into a state and matriculate…you have to get to the actual university to attend classes. lol</p>
<p>It’s about 400 miles from southern IL to Tuscaloosa. However, since I know where many of the Illinois Bama students are coming from, I know that they’re not coming from southern IL. Many are coming from the Chicago suburbs. Recruitment has been successful in those high stats and affluent areas.</p>
<p>Regarding Illinois students at Alabama, I know of many small (1000-3000) out-of-state LACs who have more Illinois students enrolled that Alabama’s 80 average-per-class.</p>
<p>Which LACs? and are they close to Illinois? Are these privates? If so, then that’s not what the discussion is about. We’re talking about kids choosing OOS publics over their own publics.</p>
<p>and, my point isn’t what the average number per class. I’m talking about the upward trend that has occured…so that 80 average number is not relevant. The fact that the upward trend shows that 160 frosh from IL enrolled is significant since the public is over 300 miles away.</p>
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<p>True, that.</p>
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<p>Actually, the car industry is doing extremely well these days, and there are plenty of affluent families in suburban Detroit, too. I don’t think there’s evidence the number of Michiganders leaving the state for college has declined; they’ve just never felt the need to go OOS for college, public or private. I won’t bore you with the statistics, but the number of Michigan kids attending private OOS colleges—even those that offer generous need-based and/or merit aid–is also quite tiny. Generally, they’re content with their in-state options.</p>
<p>That said, I do think affluence is one factor. I’d say the main reasons so many Illinois kids leave the state for college are: 1) dissatisfaction with in-state options, 2) the financial wherewithal to go elsewhere, and 3) wanderlust–they just want to get out of town and out of the state. But #1 is the main driver; #2 is just an enabler, and #3 just an added push. Illinois shares these three factors with other big student-exporting states like New York, New Jersey, and Maryland. In states like Michigan, Virginia, and Wisconsin where (rightly or wrongly) in-state public options are seen as more attractive, you just don’t get as many students leaving the state. Massachusetts is an interesting case because there in-state public options are not considered attractive, but there are enough in-state private colleges that relatively few students leave (or if they do, in most cases it’s to go to another New England college within a 2-3 hour drive, so basically staying local).</p>
<p>Evidence that it’s not affluence that’s driving all this? The Minneapolis-St. Paul metropolitan area actually has a significantly higher median household income ($83,900, 2012 estimate) than metropolitan Chicago ($77,300), and much higher than metropolitan Milwaukee ($73,200). Yet Minnesota and Wisconsin, states with roughly equal populations, send very similar numbers of students to OOS Big Ten universities:
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Minnesota freshmen enrolled in Big ten universities 2010 (Wisconsin in parens):**</p>
<p>U Minnesota 3450 (940)
U Wisconsin 738 (3479)
U Iowa 145 (95)
Northwestern 78 (53)
U Nebraska 53 (19)
Purdue 53 (54)
Indiana U 36 (36)
U Michigan 32 (24)
Michigan State 20 (34)
U Illinois 12 (17)
Ohio State 10 (13)
Penn State 6 (7)</p>
<p>Total freshmen enrolled in Big Ten universities in 2010: MN 4633, WI 4771
Total freshmen enrolled in OOS Big Ten universities in 2010: MN 1183, WI 1292
Total freshmen enrolled in OOS public Big Ten universities in 2010: MN 1105, WI 1239
Total freshmen enrolled in OOS non-reciprocity Big Ten universities in 2010: MN 367, WI 299</p>
<p>The other interesting thing here is that Minnesota and Wisconsin have tuition reciprocity, so the University of Wisconsin is Minnesota’s second flagship, and vice versa. As you can see, the number leaving either state for OOS public universities is trivial, and the numbers for both states are about the same, despite metro MSP’s greater affluence. If Minnesotans are dissatisfied with their in-state options, they’re generally content to go to Wisconsin, and vice versa; no reason to venture farther afield, even if you have the money to do so.</p>
<p>Conclusion: the size of the Illinois student diaspora is, more than anything, a reflection of widespread dissatisfaction with in-state public higher education options.</p>
<p>I’m having some problems with your statistical work, here. Are you taking into account the entire college going population, minus the non-college going population when you measure the per capita income? I mean, there is a level of poverty in the Chicago area which simply doesn’t exist in MSP, not to mention the sheer pop numbers, et al.</p>
<p>That said, the truth is that there is absolutely no doubt that once you get past UIUC, combined with UIC, nobody cares very much about the state schools. There is a growing population at Illinois state. But, it has not gotten anywhere near the popularity of Mich State. That said, very few from Illinois have interest in Mich State, either, when you look into it. </p>
<p>But, very few kids would rather be in Urbana than madison or ann arbor, and this is simply aesthetic and social as much as academic.</p>
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<p>I guess I’m not sure I see your point. I’m well aware there are differences, though I don’t think they matter nearly as much as you imagine. </p>
<p>Sure, the Chicago metro is much bigger, almost 3 times (actually 2.86 times) the size of metro Minneapolis-St. Paul. OK, so on that basis we should expect the Chicago area to send about 3 times as many students OOS, but in fact the difference is more than an order of magnitude. (I’d also note that the state population of Illinois is closer to twice that of Minnesota, not 3 times; and urban dwellers aren’t the only ones going to college in either state).</p>
<p>Is there more poverty in the Chicago area? Sure, in absolute numbers, because of the larger population, but in percentages the difference is much smaller than you might imagine. It’s a common misperception that we don’t have poverty in the Twin Cities; the latest Census Bureau figures actually show a slightly higher rate of central-city poverty in both Minneapolis (22.6%) and St. Paul (22.6%) than in Chicago (21.6%), though the region-wide poverty rate is slightly higher in metro Chicago (11.2% of households earn <$15,000) than in the Twin Cities metro (9.1%). But that difference is small enough that it shouldn’t affect the overall picture very much.</p>
<p>Are you suggesting there more college-age kids in metro Chicago? Well, that’s a new one on me. In 2009 (the most recent year for which I have data) Illinois had 131,670 HS graduates, while Minnesota had 59,729. That almost perfectly parallels the difference in the two states’ overall population (Illinois with 2.2 times the number of HS grads and 2.4 times the overall population, so Minnesota has a higher ratio of HS grads to overall population, probably due to the fact that Minnesota has a higher HS completion rate (87.4% of the 2005 HS freshmen graduated with their class in MN in 2009, compared to 77.7% in IL).</p>
<p>OK, now that we’ve got some possible confounding factors out on the table, what, exactly, do they confound? </p>
<p>We’ve established that Illinois probably sends about twice as many kids to college as Minnesota, and metro Chicago at the outside sends three times as many as metro Minneapolis-St.Paul. Yet Minnesota sends about 367 kids a year (assuming 2010 is a representative year) to OOS non-reciprocity Big Ten public universities, and Illinois sends 4,702. If you throw in the non-Big Ten public universities, I’m quite confident the disparity only continues to grow. It’s not explainable by relative wealth since, unless you show me data to the contrary, we need to assume the Minneapolis-St.Paul kids were at least as affluent as their metro Chicago counterparts, based on higher median household income in MSP. (It is possible, of course, that there are more top earners in the mix in the Chicago area, but until we have data to that effect, that’s just a leap of faith; Chicagoans often assume theirs must be one of the most affluent parts of the country, but by many measures it’s not even the most affluent part of the Midwest. MSP usualy ranks around #4 nationally in highest median household income by metropolitan statistical area; Chicago is usually in the #12 to #15 range).</p>
<p>For in-state students, UIUC is a great option for those that can get admitted (especially for business and engineering majors). Final 3 choices for S were UIUC, Michigan, and Iowa. Michigan would have been $20K more a year. If the goal is a job on Wall Street, Michigan might give you a little better chance but everything else for business majors is pretty similar. Many of the kids we met at Iowa from the state of Illinois were there because they couldn’t get into UIUC and it is affordable for OOS. </p>
<p>As far as social life, UIUC is very similar to UW-Madison, Michigan, or Indiana. Madison is about twice the size of Champaign-Urbana and has over twice the annual snowfall. Otherwise, the things college kids like to do socially are available both places. I have been to Ann Arbor many times and it too offers very similar social options.</p>
<p>Another reason UIUC is so popular with kids from the Chicago suburbs is many want to return to that area upon graduation and UIUC places more graduates in the metro Chicago area than any other university. A couple years ago, the WSJ surveyed 479 large public and private companies and found UIUC and Penn State to be two of the top picks for “graduates best prepared and most able to succeed.”</p>
<p>D is a HS junior who has reached an ACT score that will allow for a 2/3 tuition waiver to Alabama. Having visited there last spring we came away thoroughly impressed. It is a much more appealing option to her than Iowa or Indiana. She will ultimately choose between UIUC and Alabama (no football team comparisons please, lol…).</p>
<p>higgins,</p>
<p>You are incorrect about UIUC. There is a priority date, before which apps. are not even read. The first notification for students applying this year will be on 12/14. NO ONE has yet been accepted.</p>
<p>UIUC - Costs too much. Minimal merit money. There are some very short-sighted legislators in IL. Even with a 4.0 GPA all 5s in AP tests, IL could not offer my kids enough money to make it even possible for them to attend. It was cheaper for my kids to go to Northwestern. Which they love, so it turned out ok. But that’s not the way it was when I was growing up. State schools were supposed to be affordable. The kids worked hard, got the grades, and still can’t afford to go is BS. </p>
<p>Thank you Northwestern for helping my kids.</p>
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<p>UIUC did manage to offer my son a fairly significant amount of merit money: $71,000 over 4 years from 3 stacked awards. It was nevertheless still quite a bit cheaper for him to attend any of the four top-20 schools he got into, where each of the financial aid packages left us paying only about $5000/year in out-of-pocket expenses.</p>
<p>Well, BClintock, 92% of UIUC students are instate, so I don’t know how many more in state they would have room for, which might explain quite a bit about why so many from illinois are going elsewhere. When you compare this to 67% instate for UMich, 68% for Wisco, and 71% for Indiana, it would seem as if UIUC is pretty much filled to capacity with instate, all things considered. (Numbers from college board.)</p>
<p>I’m trying to figure out what your point is? Is it that there is simply no Mich State in Illinois for the overflow kids? </p>
<p>Neither of mine would consider UIUC, but they are aesthetically spoiled by UNC-CH, as a parental alma mater, and have a certain “view” of what a college looks like. But, beyond that? I think the real reason so many students from Illinois leave and go elsewhere for college is basically because there aren’t enough spots at the flagship for everyone qualified. The kids find other places and always have.</p>
<p>I do wonder, though, with OOS getting so expensive, even at the state schools, if more won’t start to choose UIC and State over the course of the next few years. </p>
<p>We shall see.</p>
<p>All that said, if I were given a choice between UMich and UIUC? Hands down I’d choose UMich.</p>