OOS Johnson Scholarship

Colleges and Universities A-Z Washington & Lee University
21

<p>@coppijr BTW I never attacked your character, I only said that trusting W&L blindly “shows a lack of character and courage.” It is the difference in saying “one is fool” vs. “one did a foolish thing”. One clearly can do a foolish thing and not be a fool. However, a fool does foolish things. My apologizes if you feel that I attacked your character.</p>

<p>This thread was about OP’s chance to win a Johnson Scholarship and I believe my assessment is accurate. OP is clearly an outstanding student and person based upon his reported GPA, test scores and ECs, but based upon W&L’s own admission numbers his chances at winning a Johnson Scholarship is very low in relation to his Caucasian counterpart with the same grades, test scores and ECs.</p>

<p>Given that OP is seeking to apply to BS/MD programs, he will not be able to apply ED to W&L which will further reduce his admission chances since you have stated that showing love to the school is a significant factor to acceptance into W&L.</p>

<p>@Hello98 Best of Wishes in your quest to find the right school with the right financial aid package.</p>

22

<p>Could the Tufts Syndrome be working at W & L?</p>

23

<p>@Bamboolong Not likely based upon from the following admission data from 2012 broken down by ethnicity, the first percentage is Admit Rate the second Yield:</p>

<p>Ethnicity Sex Applied Accepted Admit Rate Enrolled Yield</p>

<p>African-Am M 211 18 8.5% 8 44.4%
African-Am F 355 18 5.1% 2 11.1%</p>

<p>American-Indian M 23 4 17.4% 1 25.0%
American-Indian F 34 0 0.0% 0 N/A</p>

<p>Asian-Am M 196 21 10.7% 6 28.6%
Asian-Am F 318 29 9.1% 10 35.5%</p>

<p>Hispanic M 237 21 8.9% 9 42.9%
Hispanic F 295 19 6.4% 9 47.4%</p>

<p>Multiple Races M 24 7 29.2% 5 71.4%
Multiple Races F 37 11 29.7 10 90.9%</p>

<p>Total URM M+F 1730 148 8.6% 60 40.5% </p>

<p>White/Caucasian M 1,315 453 34.4% 191 42.2%
White/Caucasian F 1,402 484 34.5% 198 40.9%</p>

<p>Total White/Caucasian M+F 2,717 937 34.5% 389 41.5% </p>

<p>As you can see from the data, overall URM Yield at 40.5% is about the same as White Yield at 41.5%.
Overall URM admit rate is 8.6% and overall White/Caucasian admit rate is 35.5%.</p>

24

<p>The OP’s question was about whether he/she had a chance at the Johnson. Then, the thread took a turn away from this question. I will attempt to address the actual question (not the axe being ground by one of the participants) while addressing the concern brought into the thread on the role the OP’s race/ancestry might play:
First, on merits, you look like an excellent candidate, Hello98. If you like what you’ve seen and read about W&L, or if you are sufficiently interested due to its being one of the few top-ranked schools that offers a generous scholarship that isn’t linked to need, by all means, you should apply. Your SAT and ACT scores are excellent, Your extracurriculars are really good. Your 4.0 isn’t much to go on in the absence of class rank. That’s too bad. Would you say you are one of the top few students in academic achievement in your school? Someone who has gotten the most out of your obviously high academic ability? Will your counselor say the same thing? If so, then your performance in a rigorous curriculum, together with your other factors, gives you a very strong chance for the Johnson.
Now, on the touchier subject of race. First, let me tell you that you would be most welcome at W&L. I agree that W&L can improve on the diversity of its student body, but students of color and of different backgrounds are as much a part of the fabric of W&L as all other students. Now, will being of South Asian background hurt you in the Johnson hunt? I don’t think so. My unscientific method? I looked at the faces and names of those In my son’s (Class of 2016) Johnson class, An imperfect methodology, to be sure, but here goes:
40 Johnson Scholars.
29 looked white
3 looked of African background (can’t tell whether they were born in the US or immigrated or are international students)
5 looked Asian
3 looked Hispanic
I don’t have to calculate for you the percentage that 5/40 represents. With an 800 on the Math SAT, you already did that as you read it.
So, W&L can definitely do, and wants to do, a better job of attracting minority students. That notwithstanding, 1/8 of Johnson recipients in my son’s class were, like you, of Asian ancestry. That’s a 2.5 times higher rate than that of the general population. It also looks like African-Americans and Hispanics were significantly under-represented in that Johnson class. As I’ve stated, W&L is not perfect, but it might be the perfect home for you. Please continue to research and, I hope, apply. They could use a strong student like you.</p>

25

<p>@bellybones First, there were 41 Johnson Scholars in 2012 and one was given to an international Hispanic student from Costa Rica. Second, thank you for the data, although your methodology is questionable, it appears you are probably accurate as to the number of Asian-American Johnson winners in 2012. </p>

<p>Unfortunately, the data is more evidence of W&L’s possible discriminatory policy toward URM’s and specifically to Asian-Americans. I’m sure you can see the problem with the data you presented given the data in my prior post #22 outlining the 2012 admission rates of Asian-Americans. </p>

<p>The fact that Asian-American representation as Johnson Scholars is “2.5 times higher rate than that of the general population” does not bode well for W&L’s ADCOM. If you think about it, you will see the problem.</p>

<p>BTW @Hello98 chances are directly related to his chances for admissions, although you are probably correct that if admitted to W&L his chances as an Asian-American would be better to win a Johnson Scholarship given the numbers you provided for 2012.</p>

26

<p>@bellybones I discovered that in 2011 9 Johnson Scholars were Asian-Americans. This is remarkable because only 14 Asian-American students enrolled that year. What was strange was that in 2011 only 58 out of 537 Asian-American applicants were accepted. So in 2011, Asian-Americans were 17% of Johnson Scholars but only 2.8% of the Freshman Class.</p>

<p>How do you explain these bizarre statistics? How can nearly 64% of enrolled Asian-American students be Johnson Scholars when W&L only accept 10.8% of Asian-American applicants? </p>

<p><a href=“Johnson Report 2011 by Washington and Lee University - Issuu”>Johnson Report 2011 by Washington and Lee University - Issuu;

27

<p>@voiceofreason66, I try to be positive on CC. I try to be funny on CC. I try to be helpful on CC. I try to be objective on CC. I try to be anything but confrontational on CC, but can I just say to you that perhaps it’s time you “moved on” from your anti-W&L campaign?</p>

<p>How would I personally explain those “bizarre” statistics in post #25? I’d probably conclude that W&L is making a concentrated effort on attracting the best Asian-American candidates applying to W&L. Making a very hard push to attract them. If Asian-Americans were under-represented among Johnsons then you’d surely complain (admit it). They are well over-represented among Johnsons - and you still complain.</p>

<p>14 Asian-Americans enrolled that year. 24 enrolled the next year. Progress. Moving forward. “Evolutionary” I’d say for a school that is not revolutionary (unless you are talking about that war). A school that only went co-ed in the mid-80’s. 24 Asian-Americans out of a class of 480. 5%. How’s that compare to the UA you defend so lovingly with 75 of 6454? 1.2% if I round up. Of those 75, where is your “bizarre” diatribe of how 45% of the 1% enrolling Asia-Americans are in Honors? </p>

<p>Do you not believe your opinion might be clouded by the fact that your Asian-American son is one of those UA honor students with a package “too good to pass up”? Clearly UA cannot have real issues if they are enlightened enough to know how special is your child. You “were concerned about the lack of Asian-Americans attending UA, but having seen the school and talked to those who attend and run the school, we no longer have such concerns.” Can you not be objective enough to envision that this could easily have also been your experience at W&L if your son had been an admitted Johnson Scholar?</p>

<p>I know, your gripe is more about the admitted stats, but my point here is to ask you if perhaps you can ask yourself objectively if you aren’t somehow swayed in your analysis by your own son’s results. I think many of us can relate to the threads of the bitterness we parents feel for the schools that rejected our loved ones; relatives who we know so well were deserving. I know I feel that way about the schools that rejected my DD, and I also know it’s an emotional reaction. I am not out there bashing these institutions, and indeed I still recommend them frequently. Your son has a great scholarship offer from UA and I hope he will be happy there. I bet he will be happy there. </p>

<p>If you read my other posts I think you’d find that I’m rarely confrontational or critical, but I’ve just got to tell you that I wish you would move on to be the positive “voice of reason” elsewhere and stop the negative campaign here. </p>

<p>Do you think your posts are encouraging more URM’s to consider W&L or discouraging them? Is that a good thing or a bad thing?</p>

28

<p>@voiceofreason. You are anything but. You sound suspiciously like goblue2018. Hmmm.</p>

<p>You are jumping to conclusions and implying there is a racist agenda at W&L. You are doing so without any of the data necessary to come to such a conclusion. You have no idea what the stats were for the minority applicants that were not accepted. You have no idea what type of EC’s the minority applicants had. And, you have no idea if they showed significant interest in the school. Without those key pieces of information you are jumping to unsupported conclusions. Simplistic calculations of X divided by Y can never give you the information necessary to jump to the conclusion you have reached. </p>

<p>One other issue regarding admissions that no one has addressed is athletics. About 25% of students are varsity athletes. In order to fill the varsity rosters, the school must admit kids with the athletic ability to make the varsity squads. No idea how many of the minority candidates had the athletic background to play on one of the teams. This one other piece of the puzzle you chose to ignore in your rant regarding “facts” on admission that imply W&L is racist. </p>

<p>Please take your rants elsewhere unless you have the full set of facts to back up your conclusions. </p>

29

<p>@MWCDSS You make too many assumptions about me. I would gladly receive well argued reasoning but not charges of anti-whatever campaigns. I do not do that. I do take a stand when information is presented that seems to provide evidence of discriminatory behavior by the Admissions Department. But for some reason there has been a lack of acknowledging the troubling nature of the admissions data.</p>

<p>You go on to bring up UA’s Asian-American population as being small, but you do not hear me complaining about the number of students at UA or any other universities with small minority populations. This is because the admission rate at UA is generally on par with those of the rest of the University and so are the other schools with small URM populations.</p>

<p>As to why I don’t challenge the higher than average rate of UA Asian-American’s enrollment in the Honors Program is because the admission into UA Honors is based strictly upon GPA and ACT scores. There is no discrimination to those who meet the admission standards. All who meet the standards are admitted. Since Asian-Americans have generally have the highest GPAs and Standardized Test Scores of any ethnicity the result in UA Honors is expected.</p>

<p>Clearly my complaint isn’t about the number of URMs at W&L, it is the ACCEPTANCE RATE that is my concern and should be yours if you do not approve of discrimination in the admission process. There is always some variation in rates of acceptance between different ethnicity but at W&L this Gap is too large to explain rationally. </p>

<p>You point to the fact that the 2014 Asian-American population is 24 versus 16 in 2013, but you seemed to fail to provide the full URM enrollment picture. The total number of freshman URM enrollment in 2014 was 59 students while last year it was 60. The number of total URMs has not changed. This has been a constant for many years. Each year there seems to be an increase in one URM population at the cost of another URM population when if ethnic diversity is to be had, there should be an increase in overall URM population and the White population should decrease unless W&L decides to increase overall Freshman Class size. However, since the class size has been held steady at about 480 students the White population has not been affected. The result is a total URM population that is around 60 students every year. </p>

<p>Again, this would not be a source of concern if not for the low URM acceptance rates vs. White students. My guess based upon prior history, W&L admitted about 10% of URMs in 2014 like it has in the past while Whites were admitted at about 3 times that rate. Given your data that more Asian-Americans were accepted this year, it means that the admit rate of the OTHER URMs decreased by some amount but the White admission rate held steady. There were 389 White Freshman in 2013, but in 2014 there were 407 White Freshman. Historically that number of White Freshman has been about 395 each year which is just coincidentally about the average of the last two year. </p>

<p>If W&L wanted to increase the URM population this year while maintaining the same number of White Freshman as last year it could have easily done so by accepting more URMs to fill its 2014 Class. W&L could have tapped its waitlist to achieve this if increasing diversity was a goal. There were 705 students on the waitlist and 96 (an incredible 20% of the 2014 Class) students were taken from the waitlist this year. </p>

<p>Since the waitlist has historically been used to fill the needs of colleges, there is no excuse for not taking URMs from the waitlist to increase diversity at W&L, but the Admission Dept. chose not to increase URM enrollment past 60 students.</p>

<p>As to your belief why there is a high percentage of Asian-Americans Johnson winners versus low admission rate is unconvincing and quite a stretch. You are effectively stating that there are only two type of Asian-American students who apply to W&L. The super high achieving Asian student that merits Johnson awards and the low stats Asian. You give no rational why Asian students who meet the middle of W&L profile do not apply. This proposition is so far fetched I don’t think I need to address it any further.</p>

<p>@wlpoppa Having read your past posts, there is nothing I could say to reason with you. Not worth the effort.</p>

30

<p>@MWCDSS To address your question “Do you think your posts are encouraging more URM’s to consider W&L or discouraging them? Is that a good thing or a bad thing?” that is exactly the problem. Having more URMs apply has little effect on diversity because the number of admitted URMs has been held steady at 60 students per year. More URMs applying only means continued lower overall admission rates for W&L while URM admit rates plunge ever further versus their White counterparts. This is wrong. </p>

<p>I want discrimination in admissions to end at W&L. Admissions will not stop its policies unless we speak out. Given that Admission’s Dean Bill Hartog has resigned/retired this past May, hopefully a new Dean will usher a new era that levels the playing field for URMs in the future and that I do not have to be the voice seeking change. It amazes me that there hasn’t been a single person on CC W&L discussion section who wants answers to the admission data. So far everyone has defended W&L and ignored the DATA with one unreasonable speculation after another to explain the discrepancy. </p>

<p>I have not discussed anything like this about any other school. That is because none of the other schools have provided the type of data that W&L did in its 2013 Fact Book. The fact book that was previously available online is now unavailable with password protection. Why is that? The 2013 edition of the Fact Book is the only edition to breakdown admission by ethnicity, but it is now been taken offline.</p>

<p>If W&L Admission is discriminating against URMs then no, I would like URMs to apply elsewhere. If W&L has a rational reason substantiated with data why the URM Admission Data is so skewed I’d love to hear it and I will stop informing people of the troubling nature of the admission data. </p>

31

<p>You continue to allege discrimination without the facts to back up your assertion. </p>

<p>What was the average SAT of the non admitted URMs? The answer- you have no idea.</p>

<p>What was the average class rank? Again–you have no idea. </p>

<p>How many of the non admits visited the college to show interest? The answer- again you do not know. </p>

<p>What were extracurriculars? Answer again–you have no clue. </p>

<p>You do not want to respond to me because you cannot answer any of these crucial questions. Instead you make baseless accusations about discrimination. You have a chip on your shoulder the size of Manhattan. </p>

32

<p>How do you know that W&L did not offer spots to lots of URM’s that were on the wait list? Maybe they offered but they were turned down by most who already accepted elsewhere? Again you don’t know. You are speculating wildly. </p>

33

<p>Why don’t you complain about skewed stats at other schools that seem to be discriminating against whites based in the high level numbers in the common data sets? My kid who was above 75th percentile did not get accepted to Stanford. And whites are way underrepresented at Stanford. Based on you way of looking at the numbers, I should be complaining about discrimination in the admissions office at Stanford. </p>

<p>Please take your rants elsewhere. </p>

34

<p>@wlpoppa I will answer all your questions from your posts 30-32. Once only.</p>

<p>Post #32 I do not complain about other schools because there is no data showing widespread discrimination. Your example that your child was in the top 75th percentile and not getting into Stanford says very little since Stanford has an acceptance rate of 5%. So there are about 18 others out of every 20 applicants with similar stats who did not get in. There is no information or data that suggests that White students are being admitted at one-third the admission rate of URMs. In fact the largest percentage of any race at Stanford is White. </p>

<p>However, if there was data showing that Stanford was admitted White applicants at 1/3 the rate of URMs, I would be equally as vocal about possible discriminatory admission practices, because I abhor discrimination.</p>

<p>Post #31 Those wait-listed are given the opportunity to decide to remain on the official wait-list. Last year over 2000 applicants were wait-listed with only about 700 accepting the conditions of being on the wait-list. By committing to remain on the wait-list each applicant is indicating to the school that they will enroll if chosen from the wait-list. Both this year and last year there were Asian-Americans who agreed to be wait-list who did not receive admission invitations even though the population of URMS is small. These Asian students were in the top 75% of W&L freshman profiles. According to W&L Dean Hartog, wait-listed students are deemed qualified to be W&L students if there were enough space for them. </p>

<p>Post #30 This brings us to your comments that “You continue to allege discrimination without the facts to back up your assertion.”</p>

<p>FACTS</p>

<ol>
<li>In 2012 URMs were admitted to W&L at less than 9% (148 out of 1730) while Whites were admitted at about 35% (937 out of 2717).</li>
<li>Asian-Americans were admitted slightly higher than other URMs at about 10% (50 out of 514) which is 300%+ less than Whites.</li>
<li>Asian-Americans in general have the highest SAT/ACT scores and GPAs of any ethnicity, this includes Whites.</li>
<li>W&L claims to want to increase diversity and have taken steps to accomplish this for over 10 years.</li>
<li>For at least the past 5 years the admit rate of URMs has been remained constant at about 10% while Whites are admitted at about 30%.</li>
<li>For the past 5 years number of White and URMs that enroll has averaged 400 and 55, respectively.</li>
<li>Each year, a different URM ethnic group sees an increase in enrollment from the previous year but the other URMs consistently see a decrease in their enrollment so that total URM population has never been greater than 60 students per year. White population remains about the same each year at about 395-400.</li>
<li>The population of Asian-Americans at W&L is about 2.5%.</li>
<li>Asian-Americans account for over 10% of all Johnson Scholars ever awarded.</li>
<li>In 2011 there were 14 Asian-Americans who enrolled at W&L and 9 of them were awarded Johnson Scholarship. In 2012 6 out of 41 Asian-Americans were Johnson Scholars.</li>
<li>The Asian-American admission rate in 2011 and 2012 was about 11% but they won the Johnson Scholarship at 67% and 38% rates, respectively</li>
<li>The Johnson Scholarship is award to less than 9% of a freshman class and given to the top incoming students.</li>
<li>Johnson Scholarship is award to about about the top 2% of all applicants to W&L.</li>
<li>There were Asian-Americans who had committed to be on the wait-list who were not admitted.</li>
<li>W&L 2013 Fact Book was previously available for public viewing, but now is password protected. </li>
</ol>

<p>FACT #1 raises concern about the admission process, but it is not conclusive evidence of discrimination. However, it does lead one to wonder what about the URMs is causing such as a gap in admission rate compared to White applicants. One could assume like you, WLPOPPA, that the URMs are of such poor quality that they do not merit admission at rate as high as White applicants because of the following things from your list:</p>

<p>low SAT score, low class rank, low extra-curriculars, lack of showing interest</p>

<p>However, you nor anyone else can provide data as to the average stats of White students who were admitted to support a higher admission rate vs. URMs. You speculate that White Stats must be higher than URM Stats. I would like W&L to make this DATA Public, but unfortunately W&L has taken the route of FACT #15. </p>

<p>This is where FACT #3 and #10-14 comes into play. Your assumption that White student Stats are higher than African-Americans and Hispanics is generally true as it relates to SAT/ACT and GPA. so you might be correct since W&L is a top LAC with high average stats needed for admission. </p>

<p>However, Asian-Americans generally do better than Whites in both SAT/ACT and GPA, so one could make a case of inadequate qualifications for African-Americans and Hispanics, but this argument doesn’t work with Asian-Americans. Given the high percentage of Asian-Americans Johnson Scholars, one would think that the acceptance rate of Asians should be at least on par with White acceptance rate. FACT #2 shows this is incorrect since Asian admit rates are comparable to other URMs.</p>

<p>We can also assume that quality Asian-Americans are applying because they are winning Johnson Scholarships and they are being placed on the wait-list. This signifies that the Asian applicants have sufficient test scores, class rank, extra-curriculars and showing of interest to merit admission. </p>

<p>Given that higher than expected number of Asians are winning top scholarships it fair to say that the average Stats of enrolled Asian students are much higher than that of the average W&L student. Given the average W&L student is White, it is fair to conclude that the average Stats of Asians is greater than that of the Average White student Stats as well. </p>

<p>Which now brings us back to FACT #2, why if Asian students have the highest average Stats are they being admitted at 1/3 the rate of Whites? And Why is the Asian population at W&L only 3% when they represent over 10% of Johnson Scholars? One would expect similar percentage of Johnson winners versus general populations. When this conflict is added with FACT #4, the Asian population should be much greater than it currently is, but Asians are not being admitted anywhere near the rate of White students. Given that only 59 URMs were admitted this year which is less than last year, more URMs, especially Asians, should have been accepted from the wait-list, but they were not.</p>

<p>Thus the only logical conclusion to explain the huge gap in admission rates is that W&L AdComs are deliberately shaping the ethnic demographics of W&L by discriminate against URMs, especially Asians. I would not have come to this conclusion without the benefit of MWCDSS information of Johnson Scholars, before this data, I had always hoped that the different Admission Rates were the result of low quality URM applicants. But the high number of Asian American Johnson Scholarship winners debunked this.</p>

35

<ol>
<li> You are babbling</li>
<li> Your vision is clouded by bitterness over your son being rejected for admission at W&L</li>
<li> You are speculating about discrimination against URMs with ZERO data on grades, test scores, class rank, essay writing abilities, extracurriculars, interest displayed, etc etc etc. Even with this serious lack of data, you are making the inflammatory charge of discrimination. Shame on you.<br></li>
<li>Have you called the W&L admissions office to voice your concerns and get an explanation?? Of course not. You would rather make accusations without data to support them. Much easier and one sided.
5, Please stop making inflammatory remarks unless you have ALL the facts necessary to support such a horrific claim. First step to get the facts would be to call admissions. Please don’t come back until you can report to us on the conversation. I would definitely like to hear how they respond to you. </li>
</ol>

36

<p>Hello98</p>

<p>I think you would have a decent shot at the Johnson but it is an extremely competitive process. A huge portion of the applicants have backgrounds similar to yours in terms of academic and non academic achievements. </p>

<p>The essay is extremely important. Good writing skills are a must to make it to the finals. </p>

<p>If you make the finals, your verbal communication skills as well as your interpersonal skills are the things that will take over at that point in time. </p>

<p>Definitely apply. It is one of the best scholarship programs in the country at one on the best schools in the country. </p>

<p>Good luck to you!</p>

37

<p>@wlpoppa Are you saying you have data that shows that White students applying to W&L are superior to URM applicants? If so where can one see this data? </p>

<p>If you have no data to support this then how did you come to this conclusion that Whites are superior to URMs in applicant quality at W&L? </p>

<p>I’m sure we would all like to know.</p>

38

<p>@wlpoppa Auburn University posted its acceptance rate by race/ethnicity. Like W&L it has low percentage of Asian American population at about 2%. However, Asian Americans are admitted at about the same rate as Caucasians. See Table 5 of Auburn’s Fact Book. </p>

<p><a href=“https://oira.auburn.edu/newstu_factbookFA13.pdf”>https://oira.auburn.edu/newstu_factbookFA13.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The following is the data from above.</p>

<p>2012
African American acceptance rate is 55.2%
Native American acceptance rate is 73.1%
Hispanic acceptance rate is 78.9%
Asian American acceptance rate is 80.7%
Caucasian acceptance rate is 80.9%</p>

<p>2013
African American acceptance rate is 59.9%
Native American acceptance rate is 76.2%
Hispanic acceptance rate is 82.5%
Asian American acceptance rate is 88.6%
Caucasian acceptance rate is 86.8%</p>

<p>As for @Hello98 chances at Johnson Scholarship. He will get a fair shot at the scholarship once he is admitted to W&L. Unfortunately, it will take a highest level of achievement for Asian Americans to get accepted at W&L</p>

<p>BTW, why are you silent to my questions in post #36? </p>

39

<p>He’s silent because you’re not worth his time. I don’t know why I deem your worth my time either.</p>

40

<p>Voiceofreason Auburn University. How random. What in the world does auburn have to do with W&L? You are grasping desperately at straws to no avail. Do you really think anyone is taking you seriously with the randomness of your info and the utter lack of support for your conspiracy theory. I bet you also believe we never really landed men on the moon.</p>

<p>As for #36, I made no such claim as I do not have any data. </p>

<p>Have you called the admissions office yet to air your grievances and get an official response from the university?</p>