<p>
Michigan gives horrendous FA Alexandre. I got no financial aid from Michigan and incredible packages from Harvard, Columbia, Duke, etc. In fact, my close friend got an LSA scholarship from Michigan plus he's in-state and Harvard was STILL HALF THE PRICE of Michigan.</p>
<p>ring<em>of</em>fire, Harvard and a handful of other universities (Duke and Columbia not included) generally end up costing much less than Michigan (and most other universities, Columbia and Duke included). That's what you can do with an endowment of $1 million+/student. MIT, Princeton, Rice, Stanford, Yale and a handful of LACs. Obviously, each individual gets a different financial aid/scholraship package from different universities. I am sure to many OOS students, Columbia and Duke end up being cheaper than Michigan. To many other OOS students, Michigan ends up being cheaper than Columbia and Duke. The number of OOS students I knew that attended Michigan over Columbia, Duke or other peer institutions who told me that Michigan was a much more affordable option was substantial. Roughly a quarter the OOS students I met at Michigan fell in that category.</p>
<p>But to 50%-60% of the students who attend those universities, students who do not require any sort of aid and get no merrit scholraships, Michigan is cheaper than both Columbia and Duke by roughly $25,000 over a four year undergraduate education.</p>
<p>Alex,
As you attended U Michigan in the mid-90s, wouldn’t you agree that your observations about relative financial aid packages aren’t that accurate today? Since you were a college student, endowments have sharply increased, state funding as a percentage of state university budgets has sharply decreased, and policies related to the awarding of financial have changed significantly for the privates (for the better, I might add). </p>
<p>Re earlier comments about Financial Aid, I think that a lot of schools will talk about the amount of Financial Aid that they provide and how they cover X% of need. For the group of 25 state universities, here is how they compare on this measure:</p>
<p>Rank , % of Fin'l Need Met , State University</p>
<p>1 , 100% , U North Carolina
2 , 100% , U Virginia
3 , 90% , U Texas
4 , 90% , U Michigan
5 , 88% , UC Berkeley
6 , 86% , W&M
7 , 85% , U Washington
8 , 85% , Texas A&M
9 , 84% , U Minnesota
10 , 82% , UCSD
11 , 82% , UCLA
12 , 82% , UC Irvine
13 , 82% , U Florida
14 , 80% , UC Santa Barbara
15 , 79% , U Wisconsin
16 , 78% , U Pittsburgh
17 , 76% , UC Davis
18 , 75% , U Georgia
19 , 72% , Georgia Tech
20 , 70% , U Illinois
21 , 64% , Ohio State
22 , 62% , Rutgers
23 , 61% , Clemson
24 , 59% , Penn State
25 , 57% , U Maryland</p>
<p>But is this really the right measure to use? Some might argue that a more useful statistic, reflecting the financial burden that students carry, is the amount of debt that they graduate with. Here is how these state universities compare:</p>
<p>Rank , Avg. Indebtedness upon Graduation , State University</p>
<p>1 , $ 26,300 , Penn State
2 , $ 23,754 , U Michigan
3 , $ 21,018 , U Wisconsin
4 , $ 19,978 , Ohio State
5 , $ 19,940 , Texas A&M
6 , $ 18,958 , U Maryland
7 , $ 18,075 , U Virginia
8 , $ 17,556 , Clemson
9 , $ 17,000 , U Texas
10 , $ 16,393 , U Illinois
11 , $ 16,220 , UCLA
12 , $ 16,200 , Rutgers
13 , $ 16,100 , U Washington
14 , $ 15,904 , UCSD
15 , $ 15,602 , W&M
16 , $ 15,347 , Georgia Tech
17 , $ 15,201 , UC Santa Barbara
18 , $ 14,988 , U Florida
19 , $ 14,912 , U North Carolina
20 , $ 14,453 , UC Berkeley
21 , $ 14,420 , U Georgia
22 , $ 14,372 , UC Davis
23 , $ 13,383 , UC Irvine
24 , na , U Pittsburgh
25 , na , U Minnesota</p>
<p>P.S. to Alex: On this measure, it would appear that U Michigan and Penn State are peers.</p>
<p>"P.S. to Alex: On this measure, it would appear that U Michigan and Penn State are peers."</p>
<p>lol</p>
<p>These debts don't look onerous to me.</p>
<p>How many students are we talking about that leave these schools with debt?
And is financial need met with loans or grants?</p>
<p>I didn't see anything that wasn't factually correct in post # 62. What am I missing?</p>
<p>Rank , % of students graduating with debt , Avg Indebtedness , State University</p>
<p>1 , 69% , $16,200 , Rutgers
2 , 67% , $26,300 , Penn State
3 , 64% , $15,347 , Georgia Tech
4 , 55% , $19,978 , Ohio State
5 , 54% , $19,940 , Texas A&M
6 , 54% , $16,393 , U Illinois
7 , 50% , $15,904 , UCSD
8 , 49% , $16,100 , U Washington
9 , 49% , $13,383 , UC Irvine
10 , 49% , $17,556 , Clemson
11 , 48% , $15,201 , UC Santa Barbara
12 , 48% , $21,018 , U Wisconsin
13 , 46% , $23,754 , U Michigan
14 , 46% , $14,372 , UC Davis
15 , 44% , $16,220 , UCLA
16 , 42% , $14,988 , U Florida
17 , 42% , $18,958 , U Maryland
18 , 40% , $17,000 , U Texas
19 , 40% , $14,453 , UC Berkeley
20 , 39% , $14,420 , U Georgia
21 , 34% , $14,912 , U North Carolina
22 , 32% , $18,075 , U Virginia
23 , 32% , $15,602 , W&M
24 , 59% , na , U Pittsburgh
25 , 57% , na , U Minnesota</p>
<p>Thanks. Changes things a little bit.</p>
<p>Penn State really sucks. :)</p>
<p>Now I look at the list and wonder, why does Virginia and W&M do so well?</p>
<p>Is it because they don't accept many poor students?</p>
<p>That's my guess. Fewer students need aid.</p>
<p>I multiply the dollar amount by the percentage in post #65 ... and ..</p>
<p>The UCs do a great job educating poor students and the numbers in
post #65 help show that. (Pell Grant info would be helpful). </p>
<p>Michigan is expensive compared to many other schools on the list.</p>
<p>Penn State is an outlier. Rutgers, Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio State and Texas A&M have similar numbers.</p>
<p>I know that Ohio State educates a larger percentage of poor students than Michigan which is why their numbers end up about the same.</p>
<p>Don't know about Rutgers, Wisconsin and Texas A&M.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The problem I have with merit aid at schools that don't meet 100% of demonstrated need is that some substantial fraction is a reverse redistribution to those who, in the college's own calculation, don't need itBut I have real ethical qualms about going that route when I know it means some kid who really has to scrape to get through college is going to be at risk of leaving for financial reasons, or is going to come out at the other end under a crushing debt load.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>But yet you extoll UMich for its merit aid, without which they could spread need-based aid even farther? :rolleyes:</p>
<p>
[quote]
Now I look at the list and wonder, why does Virginia and W&M do so well?</p>
<p>Is it because they don't accept many poor students?</p>
<p>That's my guess. Fewer students need aid.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>No guess needed. For years, UVa had a prep school image. It's only recently that they've cranked up finaid and gone recruiting for low income kids. It was only a couple of years ago when UVa's Pell Grant numbers were ~6%.</p>
<p>I don't think Michigan gives a lot of merit aid.</p>
<p>dstark,
Re your question in # 64, the datapoints referenced by Alex are outdated.<br>
1) Endowments are much larger for the private universities (and U Michigan) and many have used part of this growth to significantly boost their commitment to financial aid.
2) In the mid-90s, the state of Michigan was much stronger financially and able to provide a much higher percentage of the budget for U Michigan and other state Us of Michigan. That has changed radically and made the reliance on the endowment monies that much more vital.
3) The educational culture and institutional priorities have changed since the mid-90s and providing a college education to a greater universe has become a much larger priority for the top privates. This was (supposedly) part of the mandate all along for the state Us, but their ability to keep up has been impinged by the arms race to spend on faculty and facilities coupled with the aforementioned state budget cuts. Something’s gotta give.</p>
<p>These problems are certainly not unique to Michigan. Many states have difficulty with this and I think it is commendable that U Michigan is able to meet 90% of their students’ financial needs.</p>
<p>"This was (supposedly) part of the mandate all along for the state Us, but their ability to keep up has been impinged by the arms race to spend on faculty and facilities coupled with the aforementioned state budget cuts. Something’s gotta give."</p>
<p>"These problems are certainly not unique to Michigan. Many states have difficulty with this and I think it is commendable that U Michigan is able to meet 90% of their students’ financial needs."</p>
<p>The markets have changed the endowment numbers quite a bit. Most of the private schools, Michigan, Virginia and other schools are really hurting right now.</p>
<p>Before the endowments collapsed Michigan was doing incredibly well. The school had many great projects going. I think the school is going to complete them, but their finances have been hurt.</p>
<p>Virgina's endowment has been crushed and what is left of it isn't too liquid.</p>
<p>Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia, I'm pretty sure Duke, have all taken very, very large hits.</p>
<p>"These problems are certainly not unique to Michigan. Many states have difficulty with this and I think it is commendable that U Michigan is able to meet 90% of their students’ financial needs."</p>
<p>One reason Michigan can meet the needs of 90% of its students is the school doesn't accept many poor students. The student body isn't as rich as the top privates, but it isn't poor either.</p>
<p>Like I said, Virginia and W&M take very few poor students. That does wonders for the financial aid budget.</p>
<p>Perhaps because over 35% of Michigan's students are from OOS and paying OOS tuition that they might have a higher debt average upon graduation? Is it that so hard to figure out?</p>
<p>Duke</a> University uses debt, cuts costs to fill endowment gap - Triangle Business Journal:</p>
<p>"Duke University is working to cut $100 million from its $2 billion operating budget and use $500 million in new bond debt – normally reserved for capital needs – to cover operations.</p>
<p>The unusual steps at one of the nation’s premier private universities are being taken because of the loss of revenue from Duke’s endowment, which is normally used to help cover operations. Investment losses shaved $1.37 billion off the endowment’s value in the last six months of 2008 alone.</p>
<p>Michael Schoenfeld, Duke’s senior vice president for public affairs and government relations, says cost reductions will be made by doing “the kinds of things you normally do when you’re looking for cost savings.</p>
<p>This last paragraph makes me wonder where the endowment money really ends up? With the students? I don't know about that.</p>
<p>Salaries represent the biggest expense for any university, followed closely by managing and maintaining buildings and infrastructure, says Matthew Hamill, vice president of the National Association of College and University Business Officers. Salaries and wages accounted for 48 percent of Duke’s operating expenses in fiscal year 2008, which ended June 30, 2008, according to the university’s annual financial report."</p>
<p>Duke</a> gets $500M in debt issue - News</p>
<p>Duke issued $500 million in bonds late last month, opting to take on debt rather than liquidate assets in the University's endowment.</p>
<p>The bonds, packaged into two tranches of $250 million each, have maturities of five and 10 years at interest rates of 4.2 percent and 4.15 percent, respectively. The bonds, which sold in one day, garnered bids of $4 billion, said Executive Vice President Tallman Trask.</p>
<p>The sale will afford the University some breathing room after taking losses on its endowment in the mid-20 percent range in fiscal year 2009. Trask told The Chronicle last week that Duke would slash its annual budget by more than $100 million over the next few years in response to investment losses and declines in giving. Duke's endowment, which is managed by the Duke University Management Company, stood at about $6.1 billion on June 30, the end of fiscal year 2008.</p>
<p>"The main reason for doing it is [to] fund the endowment distributions from DUMAC that way and allow them-not force them-to liquidate holdings at bargain basement prices," Trask said. "[The size of the distribution] is down, but it used to be roughly $90 million a quarter."</p>
<p>I would have liked to buy some of these bonds.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Michael Schoenfeld, Duke’s senior vice president for public affairs and government relations, says cost reductions will be made by doing “the kinds of things you normally do when you’re looking for cost savings.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Ya gotta wonder how many dedicated need-blind schools will keep their blinders on as they pull from the wait list.......</p>
<p>I think it's safe to say.....not many.</p>
<p>Hawkette, Michigan's financial aid and scholraship programs have in fact bridged the gap with most of its private peers in recent years. I remember when I attended Michigan, its endowment per student was roughly 10%-20% that of its private peers. Today, it stands at roughly 35%-50% of that of its private peers. </p>
<p>At any rate, according to the latest USNWR figures, Michigan is peers with more than just Penn State. They are peers with 18 other top 30 universities:</p>
<h1>1. Stanford University, 44% of 2007 graduates borrowed and the average indebtedness was $16,728</h1>
<h1>2. Massachusetts Institute of Technology, 46% of 2007 graduates borrowed and the average indebtedness was $17,252</h1>
<h1>4. Northwestern University, 46% of 2007 graduates borrowed and the average indebtedness was $18,393</h1>
<h1>5. Johns Hopkins University, 52% of 2007 graduates borrowed and the average indebtedness was $18,447</h1>
<h1>6. Brown University, 46% of 2007 graduates borrowed and the average indebtedness was $18,610</h1>
<h1>7. University of Pennsylvania, 41% of 2007 graduates borrowed and the average indebtedness was $18,800</h1>
<h1>8. Dartmouth College, 52% of 2007 graduates borrowed and the average indebtedness was $19,566</h1>
<h1>9. Tufts University, 42% of 2007 graduates borrowed and the average indebtedness was $20,668</h1>
<h1>10. Vanderbilt University, 39% of 2007 graduates borrowed and the average indebtedness was $20,755</h1>
<h1>11. Emory University, 41% of 2007 graduates borrowed and the average indebtedness was $23,374</h1>
<h1>12. Duke University, 38% of 2007 graduates borrowed and the average indebtedness was $23,392</h1>
<h1>13. University of Michigan-Ann Arbor, 46% of 2007 graduates borrowed and the average indebtedness was $23,754</h1>
<h1>14. Georgetown University, 46% of 2007 graduates borrowed and the average indebtedness was $24,935</h1>
<h1>15. Cornell University, 50% of 2007 graduates borrowed and the average indebtedness was $25,098</h1>
<h1>16. University of Southern California, 53% of 2007 graduates borrowed and the average indebtedness was $25,578</h1>
<h1>17. University of Chicago, 54% of 2007 graduates borrowed and the average indebtedness was $25,971</h1>
<h1>18. University of Notre Dame, 57% of 2007 graduates borrowed and the average indebtedness was $27,569</h1>
<h1>19. Carnegie Mellon University, 50% of 2007 graduates borrowed and the average indebtedness was $29,346</h1>
<p>So much for the theory that private universities end up being cheaper and do a better job of meeting financial need huh?! That is probably the single biggest myth/lie on this forum. Posters who claim that somehow, private universities end up being much cheaper to attend than public universities. At the end of the day, the numbers don't lie. Average indebtedness at most universities, private or public, will hover between $15,000 and $30,000. Things haven't changed one bit Hawkette. Like I said, there is no way of generalizing. Some schools like Harvard, Princeton and Yale and a handful of LACs can indeed do a great job of offsetting financial burden. Otherwise, it is truly impossible to generalize. University X will be cheaper than university Y to some and to others, university Y will be cheaper than university X. Students must keep their options open and go for what makes most sense.</p>
<p>Hawkette, I will not start a new thread dedicated to cost of attendance because at the end of the day, cost is variable depending on state residence, merit-based scholarships and need-based aid. </p>
<p>But I did take the liberty to do some further research and again, many public institutions did well.</p>
<p>Here's one link that is pretty accurate:</p>
<p>Top</a> 500 Ranked Universities for Highest Total Cost of attendance</p>
<p>I also went to the individual websites of various top 50 universities and came with the following list:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>$33,278: University of Wisconsin-Madison (the best deal in college education)
UW-Madison</a> Office of Student Financial Aid : Undergraduate 2008-2009 Cost of Attendance</p></li>
<li><p>$33,350, University of Florida
University</a> of Florida - Admissions</p></li>
<li><p>$33,874, University of North Carolina-Chapel Hill (along with Wisconsin, the best deal in college education if you ask me)
The</a> Office of Scholarships & Student Aid</p></li>
<li><p>$34,782, Pennsylvania State University
<a href="http://collegecostestimate.ais.psu.edu/isapi/CollegeCostEstimate.dll/submit%5B/url%5D">http://collegecostestimate.ais.psu.edu/isapi/CollegeCostEstimate.dll/submit</a></p></li>
<li><p>$35,376, Georgia Institute of Technololgy
Georgia</a> Institute of Technology :: Financial Aid :: Cost of Attendance</p></li>
<li><p>$35,555, University of Washington
Annual</a> Student Budget — Freshman — University of Washington</p></li>
<li><p>$38,623*, this is an average of the range $32,240-$45,006 (depending on college), University of Texas-Austin
FINANCIAL</a> AID: 2008-2009 Undergraduate Cost of Attendance (COA)</p></li>
<li><p>$39,600, College of William and Mary
William</a> & Mary - Tuition & Fees</p></li>
<li><p>$40,574*, this is an average of the range $38498-$42,650 (depending on college), University of Illinois-Urbana-Champaign
University</a> of Illinois Financial Aid: Undergraduate Non-Resident 2008-2009 Cost</p></li>
<li><p>$41,046, University of Virginia
U.Va</a>. Financial Aid - Estimated Cost of Attendance</p></li>
<li><p>$43,730, Rice University (best value among private universities)
Financial</a> Aid at Rice University</p></li>
<li><p>$44,368, University of California-San Diego
Current</a> Students: Budgets for Undergraduates 2008-2009</p></li>
<li><p>$45,619, University of California-Davis
UC</a> Davis News & Information :: UC Davis Facts: Total Cost of Attendance for Undergraduates, 2008-2009</p></li>
<li><p>$45,743, University of California-Los Angeles
UCLA</a> Undergrad Admissions: Fees, Tuition, and Estimated Student Budget</p></li>
<li><p>$45,922*, this is an average of under and upperclassman COA, $44,761-$47,083, University of Michigan-Ann Arbor
University</a> of Michigan Office of Financial Aid: Cost of Attendance</p></li>
<li><p>$46,940, University of California-Berkeley
Facts</a> at a glance - UC Berkeley</p></li>
<li><p>$47,061, University of California-Santa Barbara
UCSB</a> Financial Aid</p></li>
<li><p>$48,884*, Washington University-St Louis does not include additional costs of living or books which generally add up to $3,000+ dollars
Undergraduate</a> Charges</p></li>
<li><p>$48,990, California Institute of Technology
Caltech:</a> Cost of Attendance</p></li>
<li><p>$49,000, Yale University
Yale</a> University Financial Aid > How Need-Based Financial Aid Works</p></li>
<li><p>$49,030, University of Notre Dame
<a href="https://admissions.nd.edu/financial-aid%5B/url%5D">https://admissions.nd.edu/financial-aid</a></p></li>
<li><p>$49,190, Princeton University
Princeton</a> University | Fees & Payment Options</p></li>
<li><p>$49,284, Cornell University (Contract Colleges; Agriculture, Human Ecology and ILR)
Costs[/url</a>]</p></li>
<li><p>$49,540, Lehigh University
[url=<a href="http://www4.lehigh.edu/admissions/undergrad/tuition/costs.aspx%5DLehigh">http://www4.lehigh.edu/admissions/undergrad/tuition/costs.aspx]Lehigh</a> University: Undergraduate Admissions: Tuition & Financial Aid: Tuition & Costs</p></li>
<li><p>$49,689, Vanderbilt University
VU</a> Office of Student Accounts:Freshman Estimate Fees, Tuition</p></li>
<li><p>$49,708, Emory University
Admission</a> and Financial Aid</p></li>
<li><p>$49,744, Case Western Reserve University
Case</a> Tuition Rates 2008-2009 - Case International Student Services</p></li>
<li><p>$50,100, Massachusetts Institute of Technology
MIT</a> Facts 2009: Tuition and Financial Aid</p></li>
<li><p>$50,250, Harvard University
Harvard</a> College Admissions Office: Parents Guide</p></li>
<li><p>$50,384, Cornell University (endowed Colleges; Architecture, Arts and Sciences, Engineering and Hotel Management)
Costs[/url</a>]</p></li>
<li><p>$50,535, Rennselaer Polytechnic Institute
[url=<a href="http://www.rpi.edu/dept/admissions/aid/costs.html%5DRPI:">http://www.rpi.edu/dept/admissions/aid/costs.html]RPI:</a> Attendance Cost: Tuition, Fees, Expenses</p></li>
<li><p>$50,547, Dartmouth College
Cost</a> Estimator</p></li>
<li><p>$50,560, Brown University
Brown</a> Admission: Cost & Financial Aid</p></li>
<li><p>$50,750, Duke University
<a href="https://www.admissions.duke.edu/jump/applying/finaid.html%5B/url%5D">https://www.admissions.duke.edu/jump/applying/finaid.html</a></p></li>
<li><p>$51,190, Brandeis University
Brandeis</a> Admissions | Costs/Financial Aid | Estimated Costs</p></li>
<li><p>$51,300, University of Pennsylvania
Undergraduate</a> Expense Budget 2008-2009</p></li>
<li><p>$51,400, Tufts University
Financial</a> Aid and Costs - Office of Undergraduate Admissions - Tufts University</p></li>
<li><p>$51,430, Stanford University
The</a> Student Budget : Stanford University</p></li>
<li><p>$51,670, University of Rochester
University</a> of Rochester : International : Estimated Costs</p></li>
<li><p>$51,720, Northwestern University
Northwestern</a> University | Office of Alumni Relations and Development › Scholarships</p></li>
<li><p>$51,886, Columbia University
Columbia</a> University Office of Undergraduate Financial Aid and Educational Financing - Study Abroad</p></li>
<li><p>$51,968, University of Southern California (2009-2010 estimate)
USC</a> Financial Aid - Applying & Receiving Financial Aid - Undergraduate - Costs</p></li>
<li><p>$51,982, New York University
NYU</a> Office of Financial Aid</p></li>
<li><p>$52,082*, Wake Forest University (2009-2010)
Cost</a> of Attendance</p></li>
<li><p>$52,150, Carnegie Mellon University
Carnegie</a> Mellon - Enrollment Services</p></li>
<li><p>$52,300, Boston College
Financial</a> Aid Award Letter Information - Boston College</p></li>
<li><p>$52,540, University of Chicago
University</a> of Chicago College Admissions | Cost of Attendance</p></li>
<li><p>$53,112, Johnns Hopkins University
Hopkins</a> Undergraduate Admissions :: Fast Facts</p></li>
<li><p>$53,600, Georgetown University
Georgetown</a> University :: Office of Student Financial Services</p></li>
</ol>
<p>No surprises really. Again, attempting to establish which university will end up being cheaper is pointless. Each university will approach each applicant individually.</p>
<p>DeanJ has said in a CC post, as I recall, over on the U of Virginia Forum, that Virginia is still very concerned about the small number of in-state low-income applications it receives. It gave up its ED program because there were hardly any low-income ED applications.</p>
<p>Virginia has a lot of regional differences. Most UVA applicants are from Northern Virginia (NOVA) and Tidewater area which are populated with Northern transplants. The low-income residents (Shenandoah, Western/Appalachia, and SOVA regions) live in predominately rural areas and are not applying to UVA. Their parents are more than likely to have not attended college. I have cousins who live in Southern Virginia and none of them applied to UVA.</p>