OOS with EFC of zero?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Georgia Institute of Technology
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<p>I live in Florida and my family's EFC is zero. I was accepted to GT and I'm wondering if there's any chance I'll be able to afford it. Currently the only other school I've been accepted to is University of Central Florida, where I have a full ride and honors college admission. I know UCF is a 'good' school and their honors program is supposed to be nice and all, and maybe it's smarter to get a UCF degree for free rather than a GT one and graduate with massive debt.. But GT is just a much, much better school and more suited to my interests. I absolutely don't want to go to school in Florida, and UCF is the only Florida school that I applied to because it's the only one I could even consider attending as an absolute last resort. I have applied to private schools that meet 100% need but I have only heard back from one(Harvey Mudd, deferred), and I'm not incredibly hopeful about my prospects at any of them. Which wouldn't be a problem because I'd love to go to GT anyway, I just don't think I could afford it.</p>

<p>So I guess my question is does anyone have an estimate of how much aid GT will offer someone with $0 EFC out of state? And is it worth paying however much more to go to GT over UCF?</p>

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<p>I don’t think anyone is going to be able to give you that estimate, since it’s different for every student every year. I know it’s hard, but the best thing to do is wait. Once the financial aid letter comes from Tech, then you can make a decision. Before then, anything you decide is a guess and might lead you to an incorrect decision.</p>

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<p>This depends on your ambitions, really. If you plan to go to graduate school, I think doing well at UCF would be a better choice because grad school admissions don’t seem to care as much about undergrad prestige, especially professional schools. If you’re majoring in engineering, prestige is also not as big of a factor to employers. If you’re majoring in computer science, it’s actually a particularly minor factor.</p>

<p>The very best students at Tech will have more opportunities with top companies that target Tech than their counterparts at UCF, but the rest of the students at Tech will probably not have enough of an advantage over those at UCF (in terms of employment opportunities) to make up for $100k in loans and and a decade or more of interest.</p>

<p>Do well at either school and you’ll get a great job. Be the best of the best at Tech and you’ll be better off at Tech than you would have been at UCF.</p>

<p>If this was a decision between University of Pheonix and Georgia Tech I’d say take the loans, but UCF is a solid school. Georgia Tech only has the potential to pay off for you, it’s in no way guaranteed. </p>

<p>Heck, there’s even a potential that you’d be more successful in life at UCF than Tech. Maybe you’d meet a great contact, meet the love of your life (not as likely at Tech, haha!), or something else? It’s also possible that, in the end, you’d graduate from Tech and be back in Florida working with UCF grads.</p>

<p>Oh yeah, there’s always ROTC if you don’t mind serving in the military for a few years after graduation. ROTC, as I understand it, pays 100% of your tuition.</p>

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<p>Make sure you meet all deadlines. Be early, in fact. Talk to financial aid. Get in good with someone in that office. </p>

<p>Ask about the Bo Godbold scholarship: [Georgia</a> Institute of Technology :: Financial Aid :: Godbold Family Foundation Scholarship](<a href=“Blow the Whistle! (404 error: page not found) | Financial Aid”>Blow the Whistle! (404 error: page not found) | Financial Aid) </p>

<p>Another option: [Provost</a> Scholarship | Admission](<a href=“Blow the Whistle! (404 error: page not found) | Undergraduate Admission”>Blow the Whistle! (404 error: page not found) | Undergraduate Admission)</p>

<p>Be on the ball. Know your stuff. Don’t be a pain on the phone or full of pity. Let GT know you are really interested. Get to know your admissions counselor. Visit. Talk to your major school.</p>

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<p>I very strongly disagree with this statement, for two reasons. First, graduates schools do weigh the school attended. That’s not to say that you can’t get into a Caltech PhD program or Harvard Business from UCF, but the schools will expect more (i.e. you’ll need to be top 1% instead of top 10%) if you apply from a lower tier schools vs. an upper tier school. </p>

<p>You can see an example here: [Top</a> Feeder Schools To Wharton’s MBA Program | Poets and Quants](<a href=“http://poetsandquants.com/2011/08/07/top-feeder-schools-to-whartons-mba-program/]Top”>http://poetsandquants.com/2011/08/07/top-feeder-schools-to-whartons-mba-program/) which lists the top feeders into Wharton MBA. All of the schools listed are very top schools. </p>

<p>The second reason I disagree is because, independent of what graduate schools think of undergraduate schools, betters schools have better research opportunities. You’ll be able to work with well known faculty, there tends to be more money available for research leading to more opportunities, and the research groups tend to publish in top tier journals. That’s not to say that you can’t find this at a non-top tier school, but it’s harder to come by.</p>

<p>That said, is it worth $100,000 in loans? I wouldn’t pay that. I’d do one of two things instead: first, with an EFC of zero, I’d apply to some very good private schools. They tend to give lots of money to people in your situation. Try Duke, Rice, Stanford, Carnegie Mellon, Cornell, etc. Second, if I absolutely had my heart set on Tech, I’d go to a community college for the first two years then transfer into Tech. If you monitor the transfer credits properly and maintain a good GPA, you’ll get into Tech without a problem and you’ll cut off two years of tuition.</p>

<p>Of course, this is all a moot point because Tech will probably give you some money and you won’t really be looking at $100,000. How much is something we won’t know for a few months.</p>

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<p>CFB53B - You very strongly disagree because Wharton is an exception? I was talking about engineering grad school and professional schools, I should have been more specific.</p>

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<p>Wharton is not an exception, just a school where people take the time to scour Facebook to get the incoming class demographics (there are similar studies for Harvard). Business school is professional school, so the point stands there.</p>

<p>For engineering graduate programs, my point also stands: you’re admitted based on research. It’s easier to find a good research position at a better research university. If you look at graduate engineering programs, for example GT’s, you’ll see this holds. Students aren’t all necessarily from the very top engineering schools, but with few exceptions people come from large first tier research universities (schools like Penn State, Texas A&M, Florida, Purdue, Ohio State, etc). This isn’t by accident. It’s because these schools have the research opportunities necessary to allow students distinguish their research abilities. </p>

<p>UCF only had $34 million in funding in science and engineering research in 2009 (the last report from NSF available). That’s spread across 5400 undergraduates. Also the grad student / undergrad student ratio (traditionally undergraduates work for graduate students) is more than 4:1. Those numbers really worry me that there’s just not a lot of research to go around for students. Sure you could be a superstar, graduate with a 3.9 GPA, and get the choice research positions, but that’s a big gamble to take (for the sake of comparison, GT had $380 million in research funding for 8000 undergraduates and a ratio of ugrad/grad of 2:1)</p>

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<p>In addition to the research statement, schools do consider the school you attended when making an admission decision. This happens for a couple of non-research related reasons. First, professors at top universities know each other. If Dr. Smith recommends Kamel Akbar, that recommendation goes farther if the review committee’s response is “Oh, I know Dr. Smith. She’s a great researcher.” rather than “Who is Dr. Smith?” </p>

<p>Second, everyone (schools and employers) tend to use undergraduate schools as a filter. To get into a school like Stanford, for instance, you had to be a highly motivated and accomplished high school student. And highly motivated and accomplished high school students tend to be highly motivated and accomplished college students. So it’s a quick and easy way to screen applications. </p>

<p>It wouldn’t matter where you went to school if you have a 3.9 GPA and 800 Math GRE, but someone who is average (let’s say a 3.3 GPA and 750 Math GRE with no publications and two semesters of reasonable research) can benefit greatly from school prestige, especially if you’re applying “down” to graduate schools with lower prestige than your undergraduate school.</p>

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<p>Engineering grad school is much less competitive than schools like Wharton. Business school is a professional school but you can’t say it represents the norm for professional schools. Med/pharm schools really boil it down to MCAT scores and GPA. Law school is the same to a lesser extent. Undergrad prestige matters. I’m not saying it doesn’t, but it isn’t as huge as you’re making it out to be.</p>

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<p>Thank you all for the responses and the discussion, it’s been really informative. I know I just have to sit tight and see what GT will offer me, I just wish I didn’t because I’d like to know like, now. Anyway, the grad school prospects are very important to me. If going to UCF hurts my chances of getting into a top grad school then I’d definitely be more inclined to pay however much is necessary to go to GT. I’m definitely not looking to work with just an undergrad degree, so I’m not worried about employers. I’m probably going to double major in computer science and math in undergrad and I want to get a PhD and do CS research. Caltech is my top choice for grad school. With that in mind, how important is prestige? And I guess this is kind of a stupid question, but how bad is debt? If it doesn’t prevent me from attending grad school and getting a research position somewhere, I’d rather live with a huge college debt than miss my chance to do what I want to do because of money.</p>

<p>And all of that aside, I really really dislike Florida, and I’m not impressed with the average quality of student at any Florida college, UCF included. I’m not from Florida originally and I never imagined I would wind up living here, let alone go to college here. It just kind of happened. So along with the prestige and the better academics, GT tempts me just because I think I’d enjoy myself more socially with the kind of students that GT attracts, and I would so much rather live in Atlanta than anywhere in Florida.</p>

<p>And on a side note, does being a woman in a male-dominated field like CS give me any sort of edge in grad school admission?</p>

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<p>Turning down a full-ride scholarship in order to pay OOS tuition with student loans (if you don’t get any aid) to major in CS sounds absolutely insane to me.</p>

<p>You really have to experience having massive debt to know how huge the impact on your life is. If you don’t get any help from GT and end up paying for it entirely with loans to cover OOS tuition at Tech, you could be paying the cost of renting an apartment for a decade or more after graduation - and that’s if you stopped at undergrad. If you do go to grad school, your loans will keep gaining interest, and you will likely also have to take out a lot more loans to cover grad school (depending on what route you take). There are people in your situation who go to grad school, graduate and have to pay more than half their salary towards loans for 20 years after they graduate. Compounding interest is no joke, and the bigger your loans get the harder it is to keep up.</p>

<p>I would really encourage you take it one step at a time with your PhD ambitions. College is a life-changing experience. I don’t know a lot of people who wanted to do the same thing at the end of college as they did when they started. If you know that all you want to do is CS research, and won’t ever want to work in industry, that’s fine. Believe me, if you will do well enough at GT to get into Cal Tech, you will do well enough at UCF. The research opportunities ARE there, and if you are a good student you will find them. You said you’d be in their honors program. If you’re going to be a top student at UCF, you’re just the person that would get them.</p>

<p>You can get into Cal Tech from UCF. You don’t have to be in the top 1%. Getting into Cal Tech as a CS major is not like getting into Wharton. There’s no formula for getting into Wharton. The best of the best still get rejected. If you get good grades/scores, and have solid research experience, getting into Cal Tech totally reasonable.</p>

<p>Imagine getting into Cal Tech debt free rather than massively in debt (owing a house to someone). It’s not just a number. </p>

<p>I know you don’t want money to hold you back - so don’t let it. You just have to work hard. It’s a sad truth that the road to success is a little harder for those who weren’t born rich.</p>

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<p>More ranting: The 1%/10% figures CFB53B used MAY apply to Harvard business school, but NOT top CS programs. Getting a Harvard or Wharton MBA leads to $200k+ salaries, virtually unlimited access to venture capital, etc. Those schools train many of the top business leaders in the world. Their kids and their upcoming executives are your classmates. Not only that, but anyone, with any degree, can apply. That makes it overwhelmingly more competitive than a CS grad school, where a substantial amount of the pool of potential applicants don’t even want to go to grad school because the return on investment isn’t so high and they’d rather get paid right away.</p>

<p>Those top MBA programs are in every way an exception to the norm for most professional schools.</p>

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<p>We’re just going to have to disagree, then. Wharton and Harvard aren’t the exceptions, they’re at the top of the MBA ladder but they follow the rule. </p>

<p>As far as research positions go, my opinion stands: better schools have better research opportunities that lead to better graduate school placement. If you want to restrict yourself to GT’s CS department, we can. I pulled the personal websites the CoC lists for all current and former graduate students. I only included people from US schools and people where I could find their previous school easily. It’s only 63 students, so it’s not exhaustive but it does give a nice cross section.</p>

<p>Georgia Tech: 15
Carnegie Mellon: 7
NC State: 5
Harvey Mudd: 3
Iowa State: 2
Michigan: 2
MIT: 2
UIUC: 2</p>

<p>Air Force Academy: 1
Appalachian State: 1
BYU: 1
Caltech: 1
Columbia: 1
Cornell: 1
Delaware: 1
George Mason: 1
George Washington: 1
Harvard: 1
Johns Hopkins: 1
Mississippi State: 1
Mills College: 1
Northeastern: 1
Northwestern: 1
RIT: 1
RPI: 1
Rutgers: 1
St. Joseph’s: 1
Tuskegee: 1
UC- Berkeley: 1
University of Chicago: 1
UMass: 1
UVA: 1
Washington and Lee: 1
Wesleyan: 1</p>

<p>So while you see some lower tier schools in the “1” group, the vast majority of students came from large, first tier research universities. And while you might say “well UCF is better than Appalachian State”, you don’t know the qualifications of the person from that school. In fact, that student had to go through 3 previous degrees of increasing school prestige before reaching GT (following an NC State MS).</p>

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<p>You’re backing your argument up with data that doesn’t support it. If you could find the stats of those admitted from elite undergrads and those from lower ranked schools I promise you’ll find that their scores and GPAs are very close.</p>

<p>Students at better schools would generally be more ambitious and accomplished and continue to better schools for grad school. That does not say anything about peoples’ chances of admission from lower tier schools.</p>

<p>My wife is a perfect example of this: she went to a public undergrad and is now in that same school’s law school (ranked in the 30s) - even though she was actually accepted to a top 5 law school (she didn’t even apply to other law schools despite clearly being qualified for them). I also know someone who went to Northwestern Law with an online undergrad degree from a barely accredited online school.</p>

<p>Again, those who normally go to elite schools for grad school does not say anything about those who COULD HAVE but didn’t go to those elite schools. Most people at state schools are perfectly fine with going to a public grad school - even top students. Not everyone goes to the best school they could have gone to. In fact, I would say most people don’t. </p>

<p>Think for a second about the numbers you just posted. 15 went to GT for undergrad. Hmmmm. Do you think GT was the best school each of them could have gone to?</p>

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<p>Obviously the information for those admitted (rather than enrolled) isn’t available. What you instead have is a cross section from the class. If people from low tier schools had such an even chance at admission as people from higher tier schools, they would go to Tech in greater numbers. Why? Many companies recruit GT BSCS majors, far fewer actively recruit Florida Atlantic BSCS majors. So those FAU students would be coming to GT in droves.</p>

<p>The data shows that you don’t necessarily need to attend a very top school, but the class is heavily weighted towards people who attend large flagship schools where research is abundant. There are only a few students on that entire list from undergraduate schools that match UCF, and I’m sure most of those had work experience or MS degrees from other schools before Tech.</p>

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<p>So your argument is that people who apply to Tech for graduate CS degrees primarily come from other top ranked schools and a disproportionate number of people try to “reach” up to the next level of school? That’s a very, weak argument.</p>

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<p>That doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter who was admitted where, it matters who the school accepted.</p>

<p>And since we’re discussing students that stayed at the same school for BS and MS, that’s another advantage to going to a top BS school. You can work with faculty over your undergraduate years and have a fairly easy time getting into the MS program. One CV I saw listed his GT BSCS GPA as below 3.0. And yet he got into the MS program and continued his undergraduate research with the same professor. </p>

<p>At the point, I think you’re just trying to argue to argue, and I’m not going to engage the argument anymore. I’m going to clearly state my point and move on:</p>

<ul>
<li>Going to a higher ranked school helps you in grad school admissions because:</li>
</ul>

<ol>
<li> There tends to be more and better research at higher ranked school, and research is the key to graduate school.</li>
<li> Faculty at research intensive schools know each other and trust each other more than people they don’t know. So a reference from a top ranked school professor is usually more favorable at top schools.</li>
<li> Faculty trust the academic rigor at top schools more. If you’re made it through MIT’s undergraduate program, that says more to faculty than if you made it through UCF’s undergraduate program because of the perceived rigor difference.</li>
</ol>

<p>Going to a lower tier school doesn’t exclude you from top graduate programs, but you’ll need to work harder to find good research, prove yourself more, and graduate much higher in your class as a result.</p>

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<p>I was actually going to say “are you just trying to argue to argue?” Then I saw you type it. I guess we’re going nowhere.</p>

<p>You’re using faulty logic and putting an obnoxious amount of weight on something that is only one element (and a small factor most of the time) of an application and NOT a deal breaker. You’re making anyone who reads this think they should kill themselves if they want to go to grad school but don’t go to a top school.</p>

<p>Regarding your three points:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Research isn’t the key to graduate school. It’s not even really a factor for MBA admissions which was your favorite example. It is totally unimportant for med school, where GPA/scores are the almost the only factors (a certain amount of clinical experience is important but it’s more like a prereq than a factor in your chances). It’s not the “key” to any other professional school. It is a factor for MS admissions but only one of the factors and the prestige of your school/research isn’t going to cripple an application.</p></li>
<li><p>“More favorable,” but not necessary.</p></li>
<li><p>Truth be told, rigor at higher ranked schools isn’t so different from lower ranked public schools, and professors/admissions know this. I know you love to think whatever school you’re going to/went to was “so hard,” but it’s probably not that much harder. This is reflected in the credentials of who is admitted to graduate schools from lower ranked public schools, and the personal experiences of transfer students everywhere. That data doesn’t exist, but if you personally know anyone who was admitted to a top grad school from a lower ranked school, you can see that they had similar credentials to the median GPA/standardized scores that the school does provide. I know many such people.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Random fun fact (not directly related to my argument): You’re more likely to be admitted to an Ivy League school from a CC than a four-year university.</p>

<p>*I’m no longer reading this thread after this post.</p>

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<p>Well… That argument was entertaining.</p>

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<p>Of course research doesn’t impact MBA admissions. You attacked my discussion of professional schools with discussion of research degrees, so I addressed that. Now you’re back to MBA admissions.</p>

<p>If you’re interested in an MBA at a lower tier school such as Kennesaw State, then your undergraduate school does not matter. However, if you look look at top 15 programs, you’ll see that their classes have two things in common: they all come from top schools (Harvard, Yale, and Penn top all 15 schools) and they all worked for the same companies (MBB represented 40% of Harvard’s class last year). To get into a top program you need one or both of those factors along with a strong GMAT. You won’t get that at a lower ranked school.</p>

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<p>We’ve gone around and around on this issue. They do care, it is factored in. Coming from a lower tier school can be overcome, but it puts you at a disadvantage out of the gate. That’s something you need to weigh when choosing schools.</p>

<p>Think about it. If school didn’t matter in graduate school admissions, why would anyone pay for a top ranked undergraduate program? Why wouldn’t everyone just go to their local, cheap school then go to a top MBA or MD or MS or JD program? They don’t because the world doesn’t work that way and overwhelming evidence has connected undergraduate school to salaries, graduate schools, and future earnings.</p>

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<p>They both make good points, a balance between prestige and price is what everyone should aim for. I wouldn’t recommend 2 years at a community college before going to GT though. Professors/admittance committees are people too and will take prestige into account because it’s and indicator of the quality of education. As long as the school is reasonably known and the professor you do research with is actively publishing with connections, then there shouldn’t be any problems with the university of your choice. </p>

<p>Ex: At a lower tiered university I went to, there was a professor looking for undergrad research assistants who was well connected with NIST and bringing undergrads with him for summer internships at a university not even on rankings.</p>

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<p>I’m also facing the dreaded OOS costs at GT vs solid offers from other OOS schools and U of MD, College Park, in my state. I also don’t want to go my state school. I will if I have to, but not even near the top of my list. I’ve worked hard to get admitted to GT and want to figure out a way to go.</p>

<p>This is what I’m planning to do to be able to go to GT.

  1. Now that apps are done for everywhere, I’m applying for every scholarship so I can to bring down potential loan debt.<br>
  2. I’m planning on doing Co-op, hopefully near my home so I can just bank money with the experience. GTs extensive Co-op is one of the many things that drew me to GT.
  3. Thinking of potentially doing a semester study abroad in France, since GT OOS pay in state tuition(another GT+). I wonder about other costs though - flight, housing, travel but still think it is less than OOS in US. I’ll apply for scholarships to help some too.
  4. Praying that I get some GT scholarships and/or Aid to bring down costs.
  5. Maybe be RA later to reduce housing costs
  6. Summer trying to get paid job instead of unpaid Intern like last summer</p>

<p>Anyone have other ideas? Sound feasible/reasonable… (I can’t do ROTC, but would if I could)</p>