Opinions, observations, experiences on NO or FEW APs even if available?

Parents Forum
1

<p>Reposting here as I posted in the wrong place before:</p>

<p>Several threads here and a recent post by the College Solution Blogger (see far below) prompt me to ask this question:</p>

<p>S will be a sophomore at a top h.s. in a large city, one of Newsweek's top 100. Admission is highly selective (by test scores, grades) and all academic classes are honors classes or AP.</p>

<p>Friend's daughter went to this school; accepted into Bard (four years ago) w/two APs. Friend says daughter's friends had similar experiences, i.e., didn't load up on APs. (Don't know their GPAs; presumably they had high marks.)</p>

<p>Of course, on CC, and at S's school, APs are all the rage.</p>

<p>Do you know anyone who boycotts them even if available? Or who only took one to three but who took many honors courses and rec'd high grades?</p>

<p>Just wondering what the consequences would be if he stuck to the honors courses and took only two APs (and if Ivy League was not in the plans).</p>

<p>Thanks for your opinions and for sharing stories about others who may have taken honors classes but not APs. What happened? Where did they get accepted? Etc.</p>

<p>From College Blog Solution: Why We Don’t Need Valedictorians - CBS MoneyWatch.com
"My son’s school doesn’t believe AP classes — the administration has dismissed AP classes as providing learning a mile wide and just an inch deep. And yet somehow without inflated grades and valedictorians, the teenagers at my son’s high school do all right when they apply for college. Among the 150 or so graduates on the stage were teenagers heading to Columbia University, Sarah Lawrence, Mount Holyoke, Air Force Academy, Stanford University, UCLA, University of California, Berkeley, Notre Dame and many other excellent schools.</p>

<p>These students pulled it off without completely sacrificing four years of their lives. Now that’s something to celebrate."</p>

2

<p>First off look up the schools you are most interested in applying to and you will find a ranking list of the things they find most important when evaluating applicants. My s will be attending the U of MI this Fall. AP classes did help with his acceptance by showing the school that he took on the most rigourous coures available at his high school. I have read this quote many times, “We would rather see a B in an advanced class than an A in a unweighted class”. This was an important factor to them. Most importantly though, AP classes challenge the student and also helps prepare them for college course work load. I don’t think you really need to totally load up…but the student should take the AP classes that they are most interested in for their intended major. For example, higher level science and math courses are important for an intended Engineering major…they may learn through these classes whether or not Engineering is really for them. The same goes for LA majors and AP English…better test the waters in high school to help you transition to the challenge of college courses. Do not take AP’s if you are in it for the college credit only…this can sometimes backfire. Not all schools accept them and sometimes the added credits can place you in the Junior status as soon as your Sophomore year which at U MI equals higher tuition for Junior and Senior status. A good balance is always a good choice especially if you have a resume with plenty of ec’s and leadership positions which demostrate your committment and interests.</p>

3

<p>The experience at our high school is that the selective colleges expect kids to take APs if available. If your school does not offer them, there is no “penalty.” However, if it does, try to get some on the transcript. We go to a great public school in MN with a good college acceptance track record. Kids with very high GPAs, but only regular track or honors classes do not get into their high match/reaches. Colleges want to see that the applicant pushed themselves.</p>

4

<p>If a school doesn’t offer AP classes, the students there will not be affected adversely, if they do not take them. If the school offers a lot of AP classes, and a student takes significantly fewer than classmates do, that may affect admissions in the “CC Top” stratum, below HYP. Admissions office staff look at the curriculum in context. Also, many schools ask the guidance counselor to check a box to label the rigor of the high school curriculum. Generally, you want the GC to check “most rigorous.” The difficulty of AP’s varies widely from school to school, and usually varies by subject, within a school, and even by teacher, if there is more than one for a given AP course. Your S should decide when he knows more about the courses and teachers.</p>

5

<p>D. had very few APs because her school does not offer many. Some private schools do not believe in APs since their regular classes are of higher standard anyway. Her school did not make to to top HS list either because this list is based on number of AP offerred and excludes good number of prep private schools that do not offer many APs. D. had no problem getting into selective program that had only 10 spots, largely as a result of her graduating from her HS. Her level of college preparation was also higher including classes that she did not have AP’s and resulted in her being offerred a job of Assistant to Chem. prof (no AP Chem.) after all her tests in this class were over 100% and prof noticed that other kids lined up for her help.</p>

6

<p>IMO - most kids in high school take AP’s to raise their class rank. </p>

<p>This is my opinion -
Kids should not indiscriminately take AP’s just because they are AP’s. Hardly any high schoolers (very very few) should take them before junior year. They are after all, COLLEGE level courses.
I think kids should take them in subjects they like and are good at. If they like History, take history AP’s, if they like science take science AP’s.</p>

<p>At my kids’ high school, we have plenty of AP’s from which to choose. Students are not allowed to take any prior to Junior year. Hardly any take more than three a year. Yet, we have had kids get accepted to a wide variety of excellent colleges, including Ivy’s.</p>

7

<p>agree with all of the above with a caveat: make sure you check with the schools on your child’s list…some schools (cough, cough, Emory) still penalize for few AP courses even if they are not offered (or if they are restricted based on placements from 8th grade)…</p>

<p>I think the situation where one has to be careful is not the one in which there are few (like in MiamiDAP situation), but rather where there are many and they are difficult to be admitted to…the schools where AP’s are open enrollment KILL the ones where there are strict requirements (and no explanation on the school profiles)…</p>

<p>or AP’s where the average grade in the class is a “C”…for large publics (yes, even UMich) the GPA is still the king</p>

8

<p>I don’t think you need to overdo it with APs, it’s not neccessary to have even the majority of your classes be AP classes. Kids shouldn’t take them just to take them, they shouldn’t take them in subjects they know they are not strong in, they shouldn’t take a large number because their friends are. </p>

<p>But in a school that offers a lot of APs, selective colleges will consider those to be the most challenging courses. If you don’t take at least a few of them therefore, it seems as if you’re shying away from the most challenging possible courseload, and that’s going to be a problem for selective schools. </p>

<p>I’ve never heard of anyone voluntarily boycotting AP classes on principle. I have heard of people sensibly deciding not to take EVERY AP class available and instead opting for some select AP classes that are in the fields that most interest them.</p>

9

<p>“IMO - most kids in high school take AP’s to raise their class rank.”</p>

<p>For a lot of kids, it is a way to avoid taking undesirable classes in college. History and English were the ones for my D. However, not all HS are so atuned to all that ranking hoopla. D’s HS friends never discuss anything connected to academics, not during HS, not at college. They have better ways to spend time together. D’s HS did not rank, no val’s, no sal’s, nothing. Colleges determine rank no matter if HS ranks or not, so all that HS spin is pretty irrelevant, college admission will determine who is on top anyway, based on kid’s GPA and HS senior class profile.</p>

10

<p>

Not if you have to repeat the class again in college - and you won’t know that until after the AP class and your college is chosen.
Our high school has tons of electives that even the top kids take. Music, chorus, band, art, mechanical drawing, CAD, photography are all courses that my kids took advantage of. I encouraged that.
Kids who concentrate on many AP’s do so at the risk of not taking those classes they might not ever get a chance to explore.<br>
There is a trade off. Virtually every kid will take English and or History in college. Some have to take their AP class again. If they could have explored mechanical drawing or photography or Art - they are missing something.
If feel sorry for kids who quit band to take AP World History. They will have a chance to take World History in college but the band opportunity may be gone forever.</p>

11

<p>I was just over on the AP forum and was blown away by the number of AP’s some kids are taking. This excess cannot be good for the physical and emotional health of teenagers. </p>

<p>Our school only offers 6 AP’s and not until junior year with very strict requirements to gain admission to the course. What drives me nuts is that they weight the honors and the AP classes the same.</p>

12

<p>Around here, public school kids can take a bunch of AP classes. Anyone can take AP and they are not required to take the test. The public schools have a block schedule, so in theory, senior year a kid could take eight (I ahve heard of kids taking seven). The kids at the top of the class are very tuned in to rank–some obsessively so-- and the kid who gets to be valedictorian always has an extra AP class.</p>

<p>In the private schools here, you have to be recommended to take AP and for the most part, you have to take the test (this stipulation gets rid of a lot of grade grubbers). At DD’s private school, you had to get permission to take more than three. She took five senior year and it about killed her. Anyway, my point is that schools handle AP courses so differently. At some schools, the workload is so burdensome that taking several limits all other activities. Balance is important. If a student doesn’t take a boatload of AP classes, good test scores say alot. My second child will have one or two APs, if he is lucky, and my advice to him is to try to do well on the standardized tests.</p>

13

<p>“Not if you have to repeat the class again in college - and you won’t know that until after the AP class and your college is chosen.”</p>

<p>Most have an idea. It is known that pre-meds should start Bio with first class at college. Even if it is not required, the next Bio classes will be challenging without first class and GPA might be affected (the major concern for pre-meds). Requirements for History and English will be satisfied though for both UG graduation requirement and Med. School admissions. </p>

<p>It is most likely case for other majors given preliminary analysis / research / contacting school…etc.</p>

14

<p>MD Mom.
D’s HS had restricition of 3 AP classes, no AP’s before junior year and no outside of school classes (at colleges). With very limited number of APs offerred, they definitely had less than graduates from other schools. Did not affected college admission a bit. 100% of graduates have always gone to 4 year colleges and for most part, college list is very impressive and school is very well known, reps from Ivy’s and other elite schools are on school’s ground every spring… for mere 30 - 50 graduates, they want them!</p>

15

<p>My kids took AP classes mostly because that was where the serious students were. My older son also took them to avoid having to retake the class in college. (When he whined about APUSH I pointed out if he did well he’d probably get out of a history distribution in college - which he did.) He also used his APs to jump right into advanced physics and math which he did happily. My kids did not take APs to improve class rank, our school ranks honors and APs the same, so often it’s a disadvantage to take the AP class anyway. Neither kid felt the need to take every AP offered - both took a pass on AP English. </p>

<p>My older son took 3 AP science classes while my younger son took 3 AP history classes. Each had about 8 or 9 APs total. Our school offers 24 APs but I don’t think anyone takes more than 10 or so - if that many. Taking APs didn’t stop my younger son from taking orchestra twice a day for four years. It didn’t stop me from doing the Art AP (one of the more valuable experiences I have had) a million years ago.</p>

<p>Even the top ranked schools say that you don’t need to take every AP that is offered, but they are looking to see that you challenged yourself in the context of your school. If your school offers a lot of APs you won’t be looked on as having taken a challenging curriculum if you haven’t taken at least some of the most advanced classes. (Could also be dual curriculum - doesn’t have to be AP brand.) </p>

<p>You’ll have to talk to your GC about what sort of schedule is good enough for the colleges you are looking at. Bard won’t expect as many advanced courses as Harvard. At our big suburban high school - most kids who are aiming at top 50 schools take 1 AP sophomore year (either World History or Physics B), two or three junior year (a science and APUSH and possibly English) and three or four senior year (calculus, another science or history, possibly English, a language or one of the many other more elective-y APs - economics, government, psychology, art etc.)</p>

<p>I’m really glad they aren’t forced to try and squeeze in 7 APs as seniors.</p>

16

<p>The consensus seems to be:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>If the high school offers only a few APs, with strict requirements for admission, and the student takes only a few APs, there is no admissions penalty at most colleges.</p></li>
<li><p>If the high school offers many APs with open or nearly open admissions, and the student takes only a few APs, college admissions offices will penalize the student for not taking the most rigorous courseload available.</p></li>
</ol>

17

<p>^^Bingo…</p>

18

<p>

</p>

<p>Maybe. if the student is going engineering and take AP Calc, AP Physics and AP Chem I don’t think they will be ‘penalized’ for not taking AP French or AP Human Geography.
Now, if they took AP Chem, AP Physics and AP Calc in a 7 period day and took study halls for the rest - I would think that would not be as rigorous as taking 3 other non AP classes in addition to the 3 AP classes.</p>

<p>It all depends on the overall rigor of the schedule and how they perform with that rigor. I don’t think a student needs to take every AP available to be taking the ‘most rigorous’ schedule available.</p>

19

<p>

</p>

<p>That will really depend on the school. The most selective non-tech schools want to see strength across the board. Many tech-oriented schools might not care, but MIT seems to like kids who are strong across the board these days.</p>

20

<p>Schools send a “profile” report with the transcript which indicates which AP’s are offered (at least our HS did). So the colleges know if the student has had the opportunity to take them or not.</p>