<p>He could get a job - Stanford is expensive!</p>
<p>OK. Lots of encouragement so I will recreate. For those who did not see my since-deleted post, here is a brief summary. I have a S, a freshman, who shows many signs of high intelligence. Just as a true but slightly facetious example, he reads the New Yorker of his own volition. He also usually tests well - although we won't know anything about the PSAT until next year at the earliest (D did not take until junior year). He plays JV soccer, and loves it, but is not likely unless testosterone works miracles in the next few years to be an athlete anyone recruits. Here's the thing, because my Dad taught there, and his best friend will probably go there (double legacy, sister already accepted), and because he is a homebody, his heart is currently set on Stanford.</p>
<p>My previous question, and the previous since-deleted but wonderful answers, focused on what if anything I can get him to do to increase his chances of getting into Stanford. I also described our family, heavy on the old-hippie ethos, with a real bias towards letting kids be kids, and his other self-chosen activities - downloading music, playing acrostics, playing Magic card tournaments online. And I asked for suggestions - what activities might align with his being and still serve as a showcase for the university of his dreams?</p>
<p>Well, if he desires to get into Stanford and is already a teenager he needs to maximize his acquaintance with current Stanford-bound teens. Peer influence will be a key motivator, and he needs an up-to-date reality check on what it takes to get in. Offhand, I would not expect playing Magic card tournaments online to do much to help him achieve his goal.</p>
<p>Alumother, I did not see your original post, so I am starting fresh here with you as well. The most important single thing in that admissions packet is the transcript. What kind of a student is he? What kind of school does he go to? Where is he in his class, upper 5, 10%? Where are the kids who are graduating from this school going to college? Does Stanford show up on a lot of their college lists, and who is getting in there, who is getting rejected? What kind of courses is your son slated to take? Where is he in math? In the sciences? Are there AP courses offered and can your son take a number of them before senior year? </p>
<p>Stanford, as you probably know, is one of the most selective schools in the country. In addition to optimum answers to the transcript questions, your son would need high SATs probably over the 1500 range, with SAT2s in the 750 range and above. I say that because he does not seem to have a hook. If he were an excellent musician seeking to play in their band, a D-1 level athlete, URM, legacy (though I don't know how much that would count), it would put him in a pool where he would not be quite as scrutinized for excellence in every possible way. He needs to get in as an academic admit, so his academic profile needs to be sterling in order to be the 30 something % of the pool admitted on that basis alone. If you are from California, you will face even more competition since there are more candidates from there than any other state. You can up your odds by working on the application over the summer using the previous year's app as a guide and getting junior year teachers to write recs, ready to go, and make sure you send everything out as soon as the new apps come out. The sooner you have a complete package in with Stanford, the sooner they can read it, in general and because most kids are not on the ball with this, you can be likely one of the first apps read. If all looks outstanding, you will have a better chance of admissions than if you are the 1000th app they read with the same profile. Just a slight psychological edge--and you would go EA in that case. </p>
<p>However, if you look at the Stanford board, you can see that even top grade kids are deferred and turned down. Stanford is a lottery ticket school. SHort of becoming a celebrity of some sort, I do not see how a the usual "good", smart student has much of a chance for admittance. </p>
<p>You could also sign him up for some summer programs there where he might meet some faculty that could give him some recs. I will warn you that I have seen no corelation between excelling at summer programs at many selective colleges and admittance to the college despite sterling rec that some of these kids I know get. This year alone I know a young man who spent two summers at Duke, had a "best I've seen" rec from a Duke prof, and the kid was a match academically for Duke, and he was still deferred. The same with some of the musical theatre programs I have seen. It does not seem to make that much difference in a competitive admissions situation. Since your father taught there, if you have any contacts still at the univesity, it might help to introduce your son to them and see if they can match him up with faculty that could further his interest in a field. I know my son was very much helped by the fact that some of the faculty at Yale really wanted to work with him after some summer projects. Those kind of references can make a big difference especially if the prof is a heavy hitter at the college, or has a relationship with admissions. A general letter of rec is of little value, I have found. </p>
<p>As to what activities of his could serve as a showcase, well, that is going to have to develop from within him, unless you want to try to be a Professor Higgins. I have a bright freshman, as well, who is interested in many of the same things as your son. No interest in anything a college would love to see. He is a good athlete, but not a standout, and no real interest in honing any of those athletic skills which possibly could be D-3 level, as he looks like he is going to have some size, and the coaches at his school say he has the right stuff. But when I brought up spending summer working on a sport, he was horrified and the only thing he would consider as a summer commitment is joining a flag football group he has hear of. Having had an athlete, I well know the work and commitment training one involves, and the kid has to love it. So I doubt that is going to work. He plays a mean game of chess and is ranked well in the Championship level of the NCSF, but the next step would involve tutors and much more chess than he wants. He used to play the current National Champion 4 years ago, but he was not about to take the route that kid did--he lives, breathes and plays chess 24/7,is homeschooled and has 5 chess tutors. He is very good at math and science, but the thought of extra summer school is about as attractive as a sports camp to him. "I thought the summer is to have off," he says to me. So, though he is advanced in math (precalc this year, Calc B/C next year) there are kids way beyond his level that are doing much more than the mandatory assignments he is given, even though he has extra as he is going to go into an advanced level of calculus. He duly does the work, and not a bit more. The thought of recreationally doing math problems is not something he wants to do. His activities in his non homework/study time are pure kid. He plays an instrument, very well, very precisely, and the orchestra director says he is pretty much a shoo in for the audition only youth orchestra, but he is doing exactly enough music to suit him and another 6 hours a week would not suit his schedule, thank you. I have posted looking for something to catch his interest, not to get him into an elite college, but just so he has something a little more interesting than reading sci fi, animae, video games, tv to do with his free time. I see that his old friend whose mother is a good friend of mine, is enamored with debate. Another is into swimming. Still another has become an excellent cellist and is with an elite music program weekends. I have friends whose kids are taking something by the tail and running with it while my son reads "The Eye of the World " series ( which is becoming expensive ) . So if you can come up with any ideas about this, I would be interested. I never had this with the older kids as they seemed to be interested in too many things, and we had to constantly set priorities. Their summers were lined up with activities. I have no idea what this one is going to do. If I don't find something for him, he'll be a couch potato. </p>
<p>I suggest reading the book "What It Really Takes to Get into the Ivy League" by Chuck Hughes. Stanford fall into the selective college categories that he addresses. When you look at what is considered highly selective college material, it is daunting. Achievements truly need to be on the National level to really make much difference. You can see what activities and awards are considered worthy by these schools. It really take a kid who is really interested in an activity to push things to that level, not a parent pushing the kid. Though you can help with the test scores and planning the academic schedules so that they are at the optimum level, the kid does have to get the grades and "heart" is what drives activities to the level that make them "hooks".</p>
<p>My daughter is a freshman in high school also. Our choices for high schools were to stay at her public K-12 alternative school with about 270 in the high school , enroll her in an expensive but granola prep school , our highly rated neighborhood comprehensive school, or what she wanted a large ( 1700) "inner city" comprehensive with the most AP classes in the state. She is able to take a challenging course load here , honors in 9th and starting to take AP in 10th.</p>
<p>Her sister is @ Reed, definitely not a school for those who enjoy spending more time outside the library than in, and she likes it also very much, but she hasn't really got more than a vague idea of where she wants to go.
What we are doing is to encourage ( strongly) her to take the most challenging curriculum that is appropriate, participate in school activities, participate in community activities and have a good time with her friends. I believe her focus should be in doing well in high school and taking a course load that will prepare her to apply to good schools. When she is a sophmore we may take a trip that involves visiting a college, and junior year we will probably get more serious about it, although I would like to encourage her to take a year off.
It is one thing to be attracted to a school because family members attended and something else to want to go there on its own merits.
Encourage kids to strengthen their skills and interests, then find a college to fit that.
Don't try and shape them into what you think the college is looking for.</p>
<p>The original and new threads have been merged. I hope this helps a bit.</p>
<p>What is it with these boys? Smart but undermotivated, capable but disorganized. Since your family obviously values and strives for a highlevel college experience you are right to start thinking about how to achieve that goal.</p>
<p>First on Stanford. You son may very well get into Stanford. Its great to have a dream and to do what you need to do to achieve that dream. Im not one to discourage you or him in any way. BUT you should also encourage him to have other reasonable alternatives. Everybody loves Stanford or Harvard or Swarthmore or whatever elite, selective school fits your dreams. Its your responsibility (that sounds preachy I know, but I mean it sincerely) as a parent to find less selectives that you and your child can learn to love and can look forward to attending without getting a queasy feeling. Hey, he may still get Stanford. Just have a back up plan.</p>
<p>Second on extra curriculars. My son was resistant. We encouraged him to try a wide range of activities with the hope that one or two would stick. He tried several and many fell by the wayside. In the end he became passionately involved in Boyscouts and art. These activities defined who he was and still do to a certain extent. The artist/backpacker. Its this kind of persona that hopefully will develop over the next two years. It is absolutely not a false, packaged or mercenary approach. It is just a way of focusing on and enhancing interests. They spill over into essays, interconnect with recommendations, bounce across summer activities, in a sense become a personality that is easily picked up on paper.</p>
<p>Third on parental involvement. We did get involved. We prodded, nudged, encouraged, berated, bribed etc and didnt let up until the day he was accepted by his first choice college. At the same time, I have no doubt that my son had one heck of a fun highschool experience. The two are not mutually exclusive. This is a very fine balance. How do you help your kid maximize his potential without becoming a backstage parent? If you are serious about targeting a selective school like Stanford, then Im afraid you need to modify the standback and observe attitude and get seriously involved. </p>
<p>Fourth on intellectual curiosity. This is also an intangible that is well understood but difficult to articulate. Bright, even gifted, kids see the world differently. They are not always the kids with the best grades or scores. They are often not the class leaders. Luckily for us parents of the weird and wonderfuls, colleges (even the elite like HYPSM and AWS) happen to like interesting and unusual kids. The trick is to maintain that specialness while at the same time getting good grades and scores.</p>
<p>Fifth on LACs vs universities. Youll find on this board a lot of converts whose very bright kids started off thinking big U or ivy league and ended up at small liberal arts colleges. (Youll also find many parents and kids who are thriving at Stanford, Harvard, Michigan Berkeley and so forth.) The point is keep an open mind.</p>
<p>Sixth on personal motivation and drive. Unanimously kids who get into the most selective colleges, large or small, have it. You can point your kid in the right direction and offer support and options, but the inner spark has to be there. Sometimes its not obvious (or in the case of some gifted kids it is deliberately snuffed). I like Cangels description of cool, driven kids being like ducks gliding along on the surface and paddling furiously below water.</p>
<p>I can also suggest to you, Alumother, opening his horizons to colleges other than Stanford. It is a pretty narrow opening there and there are ever so many colleges in the US. I know that for my son, we have not even brought up colleges, and he is not thinking about them. None of my kids really focused on colleges as places they were going to be until second term junior year. And at that time it became an exercise to find the colleges that fit them. I can tell you we really went the roller coaster ride with some of our kids as the college search really did become a journey of self discovery as well. Stanford may not be a fit for your son. Just because his friend is going there, and it is a school he knows much about should not make it his goal. We are putting the cart before the horse. Let's see what kind of load this horse is willing to haul. I can tell from my younger son, a smaller school, the LAC look like a fit (maybe wishful thinking on my part as I am partial to them). But he can get excited watching Michigan or Notre Dame play football and think he wants to go to such a school. Visiting when he has matured more into the young man he will be will do more in establishing some sort of fit. I know we had some real surprises this year with my senior son. If he had not gotten into Yale, I do believe we would have had to think about revamping his college list and applying to still some more schools, as he was beginning to see where he would fit in college life, and was not so keen on some of the schools he chose. A visit to Vassar and Trinity(that one was for his friend while he auditioned at UHartford) clearly showed him that he really like those atmosphere better than that at a number of schools where he applied because of the program offered. Sometimes they think they know what they want until they look at it a different way, a different time. It is not doing the student a favor to get him into a school like MIT, if the very nature of the chid is that he does not want to work that hard in his studies. You may be able to tutor the test scores up to the level, tutor the grades way up there, push him into enough ECs so that he looks like he is an engineering buff, but actually living that life at MIT is going to expose a ringer very quickly.</p>
<p>SAT tutors are often a HUGE waste of money. To READ, READ, READ, and READ is excellent preparation for the SAT. The only truly helpful SAT prep book is the official book from the College Board.</p>
<p>Thank you all, and to the moderator for merging the original post. This has given me a lot to think about. As I write, S is lying on the sofa reading, yes, the New Yorker. From these newest posts I take away in particular the need to make sure that as the time approaches he thinks about LACs. In the back of my mind is the nagging suspicion that he'd be happiest at one of these places, not least because there is chance that he could keep playing soccer.</p>
<p>And the duck swimming is the perfect way to describe him. I always used to say, he talks to us with 25% of his brain and the rest of him is thinking about origami or Pokemon or the World Cup soccer tree or Magic cards. When he was little, he told me one time that he liked Pokemon and soccer for the same reason, they both have so many different things that can happen. I think he meant permutations and combinations. The most important thing is to grow that capacity he has for original thought.</p>
<p>So I will nudge him some, more than before, but you all have convinced me that while there are best practices, there is no cookie cutter, no silver bullet, no other cliche meaning ta da there is the answer! Hmm. This will be interesting. I expect to ask advice again, more than once.</p>
<p>Just one more thought. They grow. My s was like yours, having been turned off by the long sleep of middle school and by his own coolness. Mostly he loved playing his sport, which was great, though we knew he would never be recruited for it (and would not have welcomed that path, anyway). He was a fascinating kid, but he found school disappointing, frustrating, and uncool, and he thought that getting involved was for suck-ups. Despite his intellect and energy, I didn't expect him at that point to go to a top college, because school just wasn't his venue. He was doing very well in his courses just because he was bright, but he had no desire to get more involved in school, since it was really at home that he felt more intellectually stimulated. We accepted him for who he was and thought he was terrific. He grew enormously after freshman year and got involved under his own steam. Going to a summer program that developed his interests outside our school environment helped him discover that there were institutions that could nurture his intelligence and that had other cool kids! And the PSAT was actually a big help, because when he extremely well, he suddenly saw himself on a wider stage and wanted to live up to his own potential. At that point he had goals of his own. It was a very steep curve! ;-) He is at P now, loving it.</p>
<p>If you son is setting these high goals for himself , that is HIS concern, not yours. I mean, all you can do is offer help in the way of guidance and suggestions and if he does not take them, well then he should be prepared for that .There is a lot of maturing between 9-12 grade. I think by providing the right guidance, you can help him greatly. If he has made this goal, all you can do is guide- like, well, "you need to take this extra math because your grade is slipping" or," you need more sports or community service so you are well rounded."</p>
<p>Building on Aparent5's post, many schools, including P, do not take into account freshman year because they realize that the transition to high school may be a bit rocky and kids do go through a growth in maturity.
I second the idea of summer programs that bring a bright kid into contact with other bright kids. But your S has to want to attend and it may be a hard sell convincing him that he won't be going to nerd camp. There are in fact plenty of summer opportunities that don't look like another two months of school. If, for example, your S enjoys writing, you and he could look into writing programs. He could also join or form a writing club in his school. My S has joined one and is enjoying it greatly.
I also agree that doing well on a standardized test may make a student feel that a highly selective school is within reach and motivate him or her to work toward that goal. But for SAT prep, I believe that reading is the best preparation. The next best thing is to search for Xiggi's tips on CC and using the 10RealSATs.
As for ECs, your S should get involved in activities that he enjoys most. A few activities pursued consistently over several years are far better than a whole list of meaningless ones. It does not really matter whether it is sports, music, drama, debate, academic decathlon, science team, community service, etc...</p>
<p>A couple of questions. 1. What is/are the 10RealSATs? 2. What do you all think about getting kids into software? This is a broad category, but I am thinking of everything from introductory java programming to flash, photoshop etc. My thinking was that by exposing him to these tools he could go off to his room and actually make Magic cards and make New Yorker cartoons, and that he would like programming as it is similar to Latin in many ways. However, as I am currently identified as the very annoying parent (favorite word), and as I work in the software industry (not a technical person however), the resistance to anything related to "computers" (as he defines it) is high. Of course he will go online, just objects to my having him try looking under the hood. Should I just give up here? Are programming/media tools those kinds of activities where kids who will like them find their own way and kids who will not remain permanently allergic?</p>
<p>10RealSATs is a SAT prep book published by the College Board but widely available, based on actual SAT exams. It's a better alternative to pre books marketed by SAT prep companies such as Princeton Review and Kaplan. </p>
<p>My S also did origami at a young age; he loves pure math and is uninterested in computer programming. He did take a course in graphic arts in school to fulfill a technical arts requirement and enjoyed it, but has been resistant to learning Java. Some of his friends, however, love to take apart computers and are clearly headed for a career in engineering. My S is not. If your son does not care for computers and programming, I would not push it. You might, however, get him to read Simon Singh, The Code Book, and Turing's Enigma.</p>
<p>Thanks for the Code Book suggestion. You are right, there is no way my S will become an engineer. He has never shown a whit of interest in a machine. In my experience, software guys are more like poets with an attitude, that's why I thought maybe programming. But I will stand down. And jamimom, we will try the Eye of the World... If you can't beat them join them. Does your kid read the Sandman graphic novels? Those have been the big hit with my S.</p>
<p>AluMother:
If he is really interested in games/problems that involve permutations/combinations, you may want to introduce him to the field of combinatorial optimization, and see if he's interested. It's loaded with (for example) sequencing & scheduling problems, both real-life and pure_math. <em>Cough</em> A really interesting field <em>cough</em> .</p>
<p>Yes, we have the Sandman series. Kind of enjoy them myself. Thought I posted earlier about your S checking out the literary magazines staff at his highschool and also submitting entries as he is such an avid reader of the "New Yorker". I know that the editors of the literary mags in my kids' schools tend to go to the top schools. Also my boys did get awards of some sort from submitting entries to some sort of group that assesses them.</p>
<p>This is easy. There are 100 schools you son will be happy and productive at. Your job is to help him organize these schools into groups of 30. Then, learn about the top 30. After that, make a list of 10 or so reach 10 match some safeties. If Stanford is in this group it does not matter much. To get into good schools, he will need the same qualifications. Start with a very tough course load, be sure to get to calc BC and have 4 years of science, english and flang. Add good test scores. Then think about what differentiates him or qualifies him for a top school.</p>
<p>For any kid that just fixates on a certain school, that just shows a certain level of ignorance. When he has 10 he can't choose between, then he may be truly informed and educated. </p>
<p>About the cool factor. Cool is fine as long as it does not define you as superficial and posturing, and as long as you can have honest and fierce conversations about his real behavior and motivation. Try having that fierce conversation about motivation soon.</p>
<p>Listen to NorthStarMom</p>
<p>If and when your S mentions Stanford again--steer him toward an Accepted Kids Thread on the Stanford forum, a thread where the accepted kids list their stats. From that he will quickly learn that laid back-funky types do not get into Stanford in 2005+. </p>
<p>End of story.</p>
<p>He can make up his mind to become something Stanford does accept--or broaden his aspirations to include a place that will accept him as he is. There are no bad choices there.</p>
<p>While the New Yorker is an interesting read for a 14 year old--Sandman isn't...really. What part of The New Yorker is he reading? Fiction? Seymour Hersh? Perhaps you could help him fill in his reading list with more challenging books along the lines of whatever topics he likes in The New Yorker.</p>