Regarding the idea mentioned a while back to start with engineering (the most restrictive course sequence) then transfer out if not a good fit … that makes a lot of sense. Just look for universities that don’t have a high GPA requirement to transfer into 2nd choice major/school . Freshman engineering students, especially unhappy ones, often do not have stellar GPA.
For a college graduate, why would you consider a high school SAT score to be of any value (regardless of how well it predicts college success) when you have his/her college record?
re #81:
Maybe because all colleges, or even all programs of study within a college, do not necessarily have the same level of difficulty, competition, and/or grading policies, hence some employers might seek additional data to provide more context as to how they should evaluate that college record?
Not saying it’s right. But I do recall that some really high-end hedge funds (well, at least one really “good” one in particular) require applicants to submit their college entrance SAT scores on their resume.
This isn’t hard, high scores correlate to success in college, that’s a fact, any university will back that up and do so, read UCBs study on SAT correlation. Success in college leads to success in job placement. Doesn’t mean you can’t be successful in college with low scores, it just means the probability of success is much lower. This isn’t a yes or no question it’s a probability question.
Most of the studies that I have seen list HS GPA as a stronger predictor of college GPA than the SAT. Some (from before the 2004 change) found that the SAT I was of little or no additional predictive value if HS GPA and SAT II (subject tests) were used.
In any case, why do you consider the SAT scores to be important for a college graduate with a college record that you can look at? Regardless of how much the SAT predicts college performance, once the college performance has occurred, you want to look at the college performance, not something that may predict it.
According to UCB, standardized test scores add so little predictive value that they are actively evaluating eliminating them.
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/bb5f/5a3e1c833efb0a9bea816e1191445ffa2c22.pdf
what a flawed study, high GPA’s also correlate to high SAT’s, so you could say the opposite, GPA could be eliminated since it only incrementally adjusts what the SAT says about college success.
…but yet they haven’t, BTW test optional is not “we won’t look at your test scores as we see them as irrelevant”
BTW here is a another “study” about SAT and GPA correlation. Just because we like studies.
The College Board thinks their test is relevant…SHOCKING!
I agree but don’t be so sure the study you referenced doesn’t have an agenda either. It looked pretty clear they he did from what I read.
Actually, no. The university controls who gets IN. Once that decision is made, the self-selection is made by the STUDENT. So, the admission scores better show what the University is looking for in its students. After that, if a student with a low score is admitted, he or she can choose to matriculate, which would mathematically lower the incoming classes’ score (ergo defeating your argument, since you now have a lower score to weigh down a smaller sample size).
@CU123, it was you who pointed out the UCB study on SAT correlation. I was merely linking a very recent UCB study suggesting they aren’t all that impressed with standard scores.
In any case this whole angle has been a non-sequitur. Simply using one metric, the strength of the entering class as a total measure of the quality of the engineering program is specious at best.
Since we are pretty far adrift of the original question and drifting into rank territory, I’ll respectfully bow out.
@twoinanddone Just a fun follow-up on the engineering competition discussion.
In 2018, a bunch of Engineering Colleges got together and formed the Engineering Deans’ Cup. The cup is awarded each year to the university achieving the greatest success in 30 annual, team based engineering student competitions.
The inaugural champion (2018) was Virginia Tech.
This year rankings.
- UF
- GT
- Cal Poly-SLO
- U-Virginia
- U-Tenn
- John Hopkins
- MIT
- Virgina Tech
- UC-Davis
- UIUC
- U-Michigan
The 30 competitions:
ACM International Collegiate Programming Contest
AIAA Design Build Fly
AIChE Student Design Competition – Team
ANS Student Design
ASCE Concrete Canoe
ASCE Steel Bridge
ASM Undergraduate Design Competition
ASME Human Powered Vehicle Challenge
ASME Student Design
Baja SAE (Schmidt Award)
Chem-E-Car Competition
Collegiate Inventors Challenge
Design by Biomedical Undergraduate Teams (DEBUT)
DOE Solar Decathlon
Environmental Challenge International (ECi) Competition
Formula SAE
Formula Sun Grand Prix/ASC – MOV
Formula Sun Grand Prix/ASC – SOV
IEEEXtreme 24 hr. Programming
NASA Glenn University Design Challenge
NASA Langley University Aeronautics Design
National Collegiate Cyber Defense Competition
Rainworks Challenge Demo Project
Rainworks Challenge Master Plan
SME Digital Manufacturing Challenge
SWE Pepsico Student Engineering Challenge
SWE Team Tech
TMS Materials Bowl
WEF Environmental Design Competition
WEF Wastewater Design Competition
The highest correlation is SAT/ACT + GPA.
The schools that go test optional, usually have holistic admissions, and can spend much more time and effort ($$) evaluating a student, than most public universities or less-selective schools.
They almost always do it for “diversity” reasons. It allows them to replace test scores with other “holistic” factors. If you read the UCB proposal on replacing test scores, this is the case they make. Eliminating the SAT, will allow them to recruit more URM and low SES students.
Test “optional” isn’t a good option for most schools.
Sometimes a school can only enter a few of the competitions so will never win the Dean’s Cup but can do well in those one or two competitions.