<p>ebeeee- I should have stated that my child has Learning disabilities and had up till that semester worked with an educational therapist. He did not want to go back to her and I felt I could save myself a ton of time and money doing it myself. For everyday homework and understanding the material he didn't need me and I had no desire to tutor him in the material. Our tutoring consisted of taking the material and using study skills to help him remember the material.
I would never take on the role of a subject tutor.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that some schools only consider unweighted grades, they will give no points for AP or other designations your high school may reward. Stanford will not even consider freshman year grades (a disadvantage for my son). Choose, as others stated, the biology with the best fit, where she will learn. Try to instill in her the importance of learning the material, not getting A's for the resume. The grades should come if she knows the material, and does the homework (my son's grades suffered senior year from not always doing the latter; 100% on the test and 0s on most homework do not equal an A...). She will do better on the ACT/SATs by learning as much as she can, without needing special prep courses to do so. Even though schools want to see A's in the toughest classes they realize students may not always belong in the toughest class in every subject- go with what works best for your child, not what may look "best" on her record.</p>
<p>Emphasize learning, not getting into colleges; you want her to enjoy learning, not feel classes are only a tool for getting into a top college. It's good you are paying attention to college requirements, so many parents don't. However, remember that she has to take over control of her education, such as choosing her courses and doing her studying independently, so try to find ways she "owns" her education (sorry, I'm no help in figuring out how to do that, son was too independent at every age for my input). Good luck.</p>
<p>mom60, that is a completely different situation. I did not have the impression that the OP's daughter had LDs...</p>
<p>i think you have to be really careful in terms of just how involved you get here.
i also think that your d's entire hs experience can't be about getting into "attending a top school" -- during hs she needs to learn what it means for a college to be right for her -- and that isn't necessarily connected to USNews rankings.</p>
<p>i'll give the cautionary tale of a kid i know -- had his heart set on ivies. mom was very involved during hs -- i'd sometimes ask her if she could get together and would get the answer that a certain evening was no good for HER because her S had a big test the next day. this was a kid who's always done well in school, but there was a real push to make sure he didn't just do well, but that he was "the best." his grades were great - graduated top in his class. he didn't get into the ivies or other really top schools he'd dreamed about. he attended one of his "safeties" which in fact was an extremely good school. got there freshman year thinking he was better than the school -- quickly realized that he was with a lot of other really smart kids and that he had to work his rear off to try for the grades he was used to -- but now mom wasn't there to help. he's ended up taking a leave of absence to try to get himself together.</p>
<p>the greatest gift i think we as parents can give our kids is the ability to deal with things on their own. doesn't mean sit back and not be involved -- means letting a kid's own motivation and drive steer the way. if a kid needs help learning how to learn or to develop good skills that's one thing -- but its a fine line between helping them get on track and being the one responsible for holding them on track. </p>
<p>there is simply a disconnect between your d's stated goals of attending a top school and your perception of her failure to study. nothing you do will get her into the top school. whether or not she gets into the schools she is now dreaming of will be a function of what she does (plus a lot of luck based on the applicant pools these days). if you can help her come up with a study plan that allows her to succeed in the current class -- great. but, if keeping her in the current class just keeps her in a situation in which she doesn't feel successful, i don't think it helps her any -- and i don't just mean in terms of whether one poor grade will keep her out of the school of her dreams.</p>
<p>"The main problem is she just doesn't study"</p>
<p>In that case she should stay in the hard class, and learn how to study. Even very bright kids often have a very hard time in college (especially at "top schools") if they don't develop study skills in HS.</p>
<p>jmmom-The desire for a top school is coming only from her. We have always talked to her about going to college, but have never had a preference where she goes. My husband and I both were first generation college students who had big aspirations, but no one to help guide us. We both ended up at schools we really wouldn't have chosen with the proper guidance. Our goal has always been to help her on whatever path she wanted. She originally wanted Harvard, but we gently encouraged her to consider other options. Her main choices at this point are NYU and Notre Dame, so she seems to be gradually lowering her sites. She has actively researched these schools, and at one point had a picture of NYU on her wall.<br>
We just want her to find a school where she'll be happy. Since she has set her sites on very selective schools, we're just trying to help her get there.</p>
<p>Tough love time. If she really wants it, she'll work for it. I'd take a giant step back and tell her it's up to her.</p>
<p>OK, This may be a minority opinion on CC, but I think that taking the most challenging courses in every area, unless the kid excells and is motivated in every area from a young age, is often a bad idea. </p>
<p>I have a kid at a first tier college doing very well, who took not so much as one honors class her freshman year. None, zip, zero. Her school pretty much only offered them for kids who were a good year ahead in the subject at that grade level, but she could have taken honors math. Other kids did. But she worked hard independently in the mid-level math and got an A. No tutors were involved. We could have put her into honors math, tutored her, overseen her homework, and kept her on track, but we chose not to. (No offense intended to the mom heavily involved in helping the kid with LD's; that is a completely different story.) D developed her study skills and by senior year, she did well in 6 AP's. (Although at least one of those classes was clearly just a flaming hoop through which she was jumping only to get into the level of college she wanted. And was, in my opinion, an anxiety-producing, time-eating and somewhat miserable mistake.) </p>
<p>I mean, does it really matter if a kid who is heading toward the humanities takes AP calculus in grade 12 instead of grade 11??? And taking a kinder, gentler curriculum allowed my D to devote an enormous amount of time to EC's that she loved and which, as an added bonus, were clearly meaningful to colleges. Getting into a wonderful college that is a good fit is certainly important, and I don't want to downplay that (especially on CC!) But it is also important for kids to have time to develop socially, emotionally, and intellectually in ways that I think are undermined if the kid has an intensely high pressure academic schedule that includes extremely rigorous classes in subjects that don't particularly inspire the kid, which require many late nights and tutoring, when the child does not experience the reward as deeper understanding and mastery of the material, but as looking better to colleges. </p>
<p>Being old enough to dream about highly selective college does not necessarily imply readiness to adopt the toughest of the tough, super-rigorous, exceptionally challenging academic schedule. Maybe at 14, the OP's daughter isn't ready for this intensive level of study. Maybe she's not yet ready to buckle down in the way that would be necessary to get a top grade in this course. Maybe the amount of time it would take to fully comprehend the material would cut into time she is not yet motivated to devote to science and that she might better put to use in an area she prefers. </p>
<p>The notion that a 14 year old kid who does not embrace the hardest possible class that is set before them in every possible subject is either lazy or stupid or wants to coast and is not HYPSM material troubles me. (Not to mention, it proved inaccurate in our case, in which failure to take honors math for years at a time did not prove to be the kiss of death.) If the kid is deeply interested in the subject, or highly self-motivated, and is willing to kill himself and sacrifice other pursuits to learn the material, fine. But expecting a kid to do this at age 14 for the sake of getting into a particular college....?</p>
<p>I don't feel qualified to judge whether your child should remain in honors level or drop to the next level; however, I do have a question. When my children were going through the admissions process, a number of the top schools did not consider freshman year grades. I suppose it would play into class rank, but I understood they recalculated your gpa without it. Is this still the case? If so, that may play into your decision. I scanned the previous responses and don't think I saw this mentioned, but, if it was, I apologize</p>
<p>MomofFour,</p>
<p>'Tough Love'... are you suggesting abuse? I think this student needs positive encouragement and not more stress. My suggestion would be to prepare a study plan and reward her if she sticks to it. After a while, the reward of the good grades will keep her motivated. :)</p>
<p>yikes, tiple post. computer demon!</p>
<p>pencilpusher, where is the triple post. LOL. </p>
<p>Just hit it once. No matter what it does - it goes through. You think it doesn't so you hit it again. I've done it twice today, myself.</p>
<p>Very wierd. Well it seemed to be a triple post. When I edited it went to one. </p>
<p>Here's sort of what I said: I have a different take on the issue that some have raised: "Bright kids don't know how to study and do bad in HS."</p>
<p>I have a very, very bright kid and an average kid. What I see is that very, very bright kids don't do so good in middle school. Classes bore them, teachers annoy them. Once they get into really tough classes they shine. The just kind of bright kids start to stuggle in these classes. they get B's and C's and really have to work. The very, very bright kids work because they want to work. Because they are now in love with school. Now if it weren't for the sort of bright kids who did well in middle school wanting to take these really tough advanced classes in HS, these classes wouldn't even exist. So I, as the parent of a very, very bright kid was happy to see these kids in those classes. Because, finally, my very very bright kid was able to shine.</p>
<p>However, there is no way I'm going to subject my kind of average bright kid to this when he gets to High School. This kid is going to stuggle and the geniuses in his class will be easily getting A's. This is, despite the fact that he is doing well in middle school. I know it's because middle school is more for the average kid (at least in my public schools) than the really, really bright kid. Even in honors classes in middle school.</p>
<p>So my advice is to figure out what kind of kid you really have. You need to find the fit. I wouldn't let an average IQ kid be used so the really smart ones can shine. And if your kid is more an average kind of kid, she wouldn't be happy at a top ranked school anyway. Best you find out what her strengths are and find the right place for her. In high school and college.</p>
<p>If she's an amazing intellect and just bored by this class you should know that too and get her into something harder. But the fact that you seem to know that the lower level class is where she'd fit in tells me she's just not a fit for the harder classes and ultimately the harder colleges.</p>
<p>Children often want high flying things, which is wonderful. They should shoot for the stars and as parents we should encourage them. But too often they, and we, are not aware of how much work and sacrifice it takes to make the Olympics, become a ballerina, a doctor, a scientist, a general, a political leader, someone who makes a difference. Having ones heart set on a top college is a very specific goal for a 9th grader to set. It's all well and good for a child to say he/she wants to go to Harvard, for example, but when it comes down to doing the type of work needed to be in the running, a quick reality check can occur. Fortunately, the same skills needed for your D to be top college material are pretty much the same as those needed to be a successful student. If she is a bright student who has not had to do much work to do well up to this point, and is now taking courses that require extensive and consistent study skills, this is the awakening that often occurs. And for the parent, it is a fine line between pushing too much, beyond what is reasonable for a student who is at a certain level, and having to use "tough love" to get a lazy student moving. It is the same fine line I have been treading with my children, and sometimes I fall off the tightwire, as most parents do.</p>
<p>I would guess a thorough examination of her background, her abilities, her willingness to do that level of work is in order. Talk to her teachers and counselors and see if she is truly a fish out of water in this classs in that she does not have the background that the other kids have. She may do better with a gentler transition into highschool. On the other hand, if she is truly with her peers, and is just reluctant to gear up and get study and organization skills up to par, that is a different story. However, downstepping may be the best route even in that case. This is such a tricky situation and it is often impossible to tell what is the right thing to do.<br>
Positive encouragement is always great, but there are kids who do need to stress a little bit more than they do in order to make that next step. I say this as a mom with 5 kids who all have a pretty wide lazy streak that have needed more than rewards and study plans. But I will say that making the top school goal that was expressed the motivator for the course of action, is a narrow view. Those kids who get into top schools most often have that inner drive that cannot be replicated by parental push. The study skills and and organization are in themselves important without any college considerations as they are life skills. And that is what is important to address, not that she needs to take the most difficult courses to be a prime candidate for Harvard.</p>
<p>"My daughter has her heart set on attending a top school. She is only a freshman, so we carefully planned her courseload to cater to the main requirements. Over the summer she made me promise to do whatever it took to keep her on track. "</p>
<p>Her going to a top school was her goal, and if she's serious about this, SHE needs to take responsibility for staying on track.</p>
<p>It's important to realize that many bright students think as freshmen that it would be great to go to a place like Harvard. While they are smart enough to be able to get the grades/scores to have a shot at admission to a top college, they may not be intellectually curious or intensely motivated enough to do the very hard work -- including with ECs --that having a shot at such schools requires.</p>
<p>Students who end up being competitive for such colleges are very self directed. They aren't relying on parents to push them to do what is necessary. </p>
<p>I'm writing from the perspective of having 2 gifted sons, both of which as h.s. freshmen said they wanted to go to top colleges. Indeed, my older son even went around in in a Princeton shirt. Both also chose to take the hardest courses available.</p>
<p>Neither, however, was willing to do the very hard work that was required to get excellent grades in those curricula even though both ended up being some of the few students in their school who were National Merit commended. Students with stronger work ethics bypassed my sons in terms of grades and class ranks because my sons likwd the fantasy of being competitive for a top college, but didn't like the reality of the hard work that is involved.</p>
<p>My older son went to a tier 2 out of state public where his great scores got him into the honors program, where he entered as a star student, was even profiled on the college's web page. By his own choice, he turned down top 25 colleges to go there. My younger S is taking a gap year now, and plans to go next year to a second tier in state public. He could do better, but doesn't seem to want to put the effort into filling out applications that require real thought.</p>
<p>With both sons, my husband and I did a lot to help them achieve academically what they said they wanted to do. This included paying hundreds of dollars for tutoring, organizational help, and our spending lots of time trying to help them structure their time so that they could do well on projects and other works. Looking back, I realize that if the boys had been serious about wanting to get high grades in difficult classes, they would have put the time and effort into doing so without my husband and I spending so much of our own time trying to help and structure them.</p>
<p>Any way, the bottom line is to let your D be responsible for achieving her own dreams. Certainly get her tutors if she is struggling despite working hard, and if she wants to stay in challenging courses. But don't think it's up to you to be responsible for her making it to the kind of college she thinks she deserves.</p>
<p>Cptofthehouse and NSM, that is great advice for any student. One aspect of a selective college that sometimes goes without comment is that it's not a cakewalk once you're there. ALL the kids are bright, high achievers. Especially if a student is interested in a difficult major, he/she can expect to work harder than in HS -- if a student resists doing the work in HS, they will not achieve all that they would like to in college. The motivation has to come from within.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Especially if a student is interested in a difficult major, he/she can expect to work harder than in HS -- if a student resists doing the work in HS, they will not achieve all that they would like to in college. The motivation has to come from within.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I worry about this. If my son gets into his top choice college I think he's going to be in for quite a shock. He did the work required in high school because it really didn't take that much out of him to get As, even in what were supposed to be advanced courses.</p>
<p>I, on the other hand had the opposite experience, having gone to a very good prep school, I found college far easier than I expected it to be.</p>
<p>Mathmom:</p>
<p>This is one reason (apart from the fact that S actually asked for it) that we tried to get S accelerated to a level where he was challenged and yet comfortable.</p>
<p>This sounds familiar from my D's experience. She attends a top 5 LAC. She worked very hard for the IB diploma in high school, and did not find the transition to college work as challenging as she worried it might be. But she said that kids that had breezed through high school with straight A's did not have the same study habits, and had a more difficult time adjusting to college level work.</p>
<p>Hi there, just saw this post.</p>
<p>First off, the other folks who are saying that your daughter really needs to be the prime mover here are absolutely right. If she doesn't learn to manage her study needs herself. she'll be toast - at almost any college.</p>
<p>Also, generally speaking, dropping down to easier level classes (even as a freshman) does not put a student on the road to NYU or other similar schools.</p>
<p>What I haven't seen here is much discussion of higher level vs. lower level classes in HS. In my school system (whch may be different from yours) there were some big differences which I as a parent would not have expected. Message is, check carefully, especially before you let her move down. </p>
<p>Here are some examples. [In our system, "honors" = higher level, "academic" = lower level. AP is different, I won't get into that here. Some academic courses are pretty rigorous - but only for subjects in which there is no honors offering.]</p>
<p>1) Many of the kids in some academic courses don't want to be in school at all. They're not in class to learn. There may be discipline problems. High-performing veteran teachers do not usually vie to teach academic courses. Generally kids in these classes are not pushed by their peers.</p>
<p>2) Quote from my son's honors bio teacher: "In this course, we use a textbook which is written at the college level and which is used as a text at some colleges. The academic course uses a textbook which is written at an 8th grade level."</p>
<p>3) Grading is not necessarily easier in the academic courses. In son's honors chem course, over 50% of the students had A's one marking period. In the academic chem course, taught by the same teacher in the same marking period, there was 1 A, a handful of B's, mostly C's, a few D's. </p>
<p>4) It is difficult to move from academic level courses one year to honors level the next. Some kids start freshman year with an all-academic program and then try to move to all-honors sophomore year. [Because of the way our school does class rank there's an element of gaming the system here.] I have never seen this work out well. </p>
<p>I am not saying "Don't let your daughter move down", I am saying "Check out what 'down' really means first." IMHO, the most important thing to check for is what kinds of students take the lower-level classes. If they are hard workers who want/need to move slower, or aren't particularly interested in science, it's probably fine. If they are slackers, I'd advise keeping her in the upper-level course even if she gets a B or C.</p>
<p>One last thought: the major difference between "top" colleges and community colleges isn't the courses, it's the students ... if she really wants to go to a top college, she should get used to keeping up with the stars now.</p>