thanks @StacJip and others. He doesn’t get any supports in school. He’s been away from home many summers for several weeks and does fine with that. He certainly might like to be closer to NYC but I don’t think that a gap year is so much of interest to him. The more complex issues are the college path question that I posed --whether there are schools that passion for music vs.
@dramasopranomom you said this:
" take your S to visit some schools…you can see first hand the differences between stand alone Conservatories, Conservatory within a college setting, and excellent Schools of Music. If you have time, visit a few this year and consider sending him to a summer program."
What are “excellent Schools of Music”?
For conservatory with college, we know of Eastman/U of R, Carnegie Mellon (though I was recently told by music teacher that Jazz there is not as good), JH and Peabody, Temple, U of Michigan, Oberlin.
What I don’t know is the LAC/research U that does not have a conservatory but still has great music.
For Jazz…ugh, definitely not my specialty! I do know of a fine Jazz musician (with stellar academics) who chose St. Olaf above some of the other Conservatives they were accepted to, and you have mentioned Lawrence U., and Oberlin plus Eastman, Peabody and Beinen already (which are perhaps the most known Conservatory programs inside great schools, as you know). I know @GoForth and others talk a lot about UNT and Miami Frost (you may have mentioned these already). Perhaps U Michigan? Have you looked into the new Harvard program (no idea if they have Jazz). Please help, Jazz families! My point about visiting is simply that there are so many differences between programs, when you do narrow the field, in depth visits will be really important as to fit (especially if you know he won’t struggle with his disability). Case Western and Cleveland Institute also have a collaboration, I believe, but again, I don’t know about Jazz at CIM.
thank you! trying to figure exactly where to visit. Yes, Jazz families would love your help. Just found the CM has an interdisciplinary program with School of Music and College of Science. That is exactly the kind of thing we are looking for. But q about jazz there. Progress!
The gap year is often not of interest to teens in high school who feel pressure from their peers to go off and be on some time schedule for college. But if you do your research you can find amazing gap year experiences. And those gap year experiences might help your son sort out whether he is interested in science or a performance music degree and if so what learning environment is right for him. Most kids by their junior year are starting to think about what they want in terms of big versus small, urban versus rural, seminar versus lecture classes. And if a kid’s answer is “I don’t care” or “I don’t know” then chances are they are not quite ready. Being away from home in summer as an underage teen is very different than being in college. In college nobody is going to tell you to wake up or go eat or go to class. In college it is easy to hide out in your dorm room and just go through the motions of doing school work becoming increasingly lonely and isolated. More importantly (and why I often recommend parents think hard about sending their kids far away) something as simple as the flu can be very difficult to handle when you are an airplane ride away from mom and dad. I am saying that from first hand experience and it was with my kid who was the most mature and independent of my three.
NEC has a joint program with Tufts and with Harvard. But also students who are just enrolled at NEC can take classes at Tufts, Harvard, MIT and/or Northeastern if they are proactive. One nice thing about NEC is it is quite small so everyone knows each other and people tend to form very tight bonds with their classmates. I recently met a 60+ year old NEC alum who still plays with his NEC classmates. My own son still creates with his NEC classmates as well.
Students at Berklee can take classes at neighboring Universities as well through a program called Pro-Arts. They can take classes at Emerson, NorthEastern, SMFA and more. You can Google it to find out. Berklee also has a joint program with Harvard now.
The New School is work looking at. Their jazz program is one of the best these days and they also have a joint 5 year BA/BM program. A good friend of our son’s went to this program and is now applying to PhD programs in Music Ethnology.
Believe it or not UMass Amherst has outstanding science and mathematics but it also has a solid and well respected Jazz program. UMass is a HUGE school and can be overwhelming. But the honors college (which provides a small school atmosphere within a larger school) is excellent.
Definitely look into the CUNY schools. Their Jazz is considered one of the best. The price is right if you live in NYC and even better they have great science as well.
And also look into the SUNY system. I can’t remember which SUNY has an incredible Jazz program but it is one of them.
Columbia has good music and is right near MSM. The problem with Columbia is the environment can be very competitive and overwhelming. Think about whether your child will do better as a big fish in a small pond or a small fish in a big pond.
UMichigan has a small program within the larger school that is very well regarded and might be good for your son.
Vassar has a great music program but I do not hear a lot about their Jazz program.
University of Miami (provided it is not underwater in 2 years) has an amazing Jazz program.
Ithaca college has a great reputation for music and liberal arts. I do not know about Jazz specifically.
Consider having your son attend NEC Jazz Lab (only 10 days) this summer or Berklee’s 5 week or Litchfield’s Jazz Camp. All three programs have conservatory faculty who are great resources for the college application process. Also they all have college fairs, which can help. If you live in NYC consider tracking down Don Braden (the founder of Litchfield’s Jazz Camp). A private lesson from Don will likely lead to some wise advice and guidance about moving forward. The other nice thing about those programs is they expose the student to what majoring in performance will involve.
People make a lot of assumptions about what it means to “major/minor” in music, so I think it might help to clarify.
It’s mostly about what degree you decide to pursue: a Bachelor of Music (BM), Bachelor of Arts (BA), or Bachelor of Fine Arts (BFA) are generally your choices. These degrees mostly differ in their course requirements, e.g. percentage of music courses, core academics, electives, etc. Some music schools also offer a Bachelor of Science (BS) for music technology or business fields.
There is no legal/credential difference between a “conservatory” and a “school of music”. Oberlin calls their school of music “Oberlin Conservatory of Music” while at University of Rochester, it’s “Eastman School of Music”, and Berklee, which is often cited as an example of a conservatory is actually named “Berklee College of Music.”
There is also no rule about which of the BM/BA/BFA degrees might be offered by conservatories or stand-alone music schools in a University. Many music schools offer more than one. Many music schools define “majors” as specific focus within music, such as “Jazz Studies”. There maybe some surprises – Berklee doesn’t have a “Jazz Studies” major, for instance, and The New School’s Jazz offers a BFA but not a BM program.
I’m assuming you’re asking about schools that have music departments but not stand-alone music schools. Columbia, Harvard, Yale all have music departments with excellent jazz faculty. University of Pittsburgh has a good jazz department; they unfortunately lost Geri Allen recently. City College in NYC mentioned above has an excellent jazz program, but this is a BFA program, not BA.
In or near NYC, the schools most often mentioned for jazz are: Manhattan School of Music (MSM), Steinhardt (NYU), City College, The New School, Juilliard, Columbia, SUNY Purchase, William Paterson (NJ).
Carnegie Mellon is a great option. We have a friend studying jazz at the New School in NYC. His sister has a major that is not arts-related. Not sure of the math/science options there. Also have a friend who is a music professor at Yale. I am not sure if this is still true, but at one time all music majors attended for free as all spots were endowed.
Have you looked at Williams?
@browniemom - as @ScreenName48105 said above- you have examples of Schools of Music at Universities on your list - such as University of Indiana, Northwestern, USC, Michigan, Rice, Carnegie Mellon. “Stand Alone Conservatories” are not affiliated with any college - such as Juilliard, Curtis, NEC, Manhattan. And then there are separate conservatories like Oberlin, Lawrence, Hartt, & Bard which are affiliated with a college. The difference between a School of Music and a conservatory attached/affiliated with a college is probably minimal but may affect the general education requirements for the degree.
Not all conservatories are strong in jazz. And sometimes, such as at Bard College or Vassar or Williams, jazz studies would just be a path offered through the music dept. (Note to readers, as it’s often a point of confusion - Bard Conservatory is purely classical - all other fields of music are taught through Bard College.)
In general, if your son is interested in taking a range of academic courses, he would benefit from going to a program which is in some way attached to an academic institution.
@tenniswimvball You’re thinking of Yale School of Music which is a graduate school only and for which tuition is waived for all grad students. As for jazz at Yale College (not the School of Music), they’re in the process of rebuilding. Jazz had been relatively ignored at Yale for awhile.
thanks @SpiritManager. We met with the college consultant and our son last night; he is definitely interested in attending an academic institution and either doing a double major music performance and science or one of those being a minor. Because of his music level, we’ll be most interested in those that have a school of music or conservatory attached/affiliated, probably. Just from a bit of looking, I see Carnegie Mellon has an interdisciplinary program/degree that can be done in 4 years (others may not). So I will plug away on this with the names I have been given. In the meantime, if anyone knowledgeable about Jazz see this and has views on which schools have good jazz, I’d love to know.
@browniemom did you see @StacJip and @ScreenName48105 ‘s post just above?? They offered excellent advice regarding Jazz programs!
@browniemom - please review again the Double Degree Dilemma. There is an enormous difference between a Double Major and a Double Degree. If he’s at a program without a School of Music which does not offer a BM - such as Columbia - he would be pursuing a double major - two BA’s. Anywhere with a School of Music or Conservatory attached, or in conjunction (like Tufts/NEC) will be a five year Double Degree program. I’ve never heard Carnegie Mellon referenced on here for jazz, so no idea about that one. As @dramasopranomom said above, the lists from @StacJip and @ScreenName48105 are the place to start!
browniemom,
Another reason to possibly explore a summer program between now and his senior year is to help your son narrow his choices and have a better sense of what type of school really is right for him. I have two boys both of whom where talented musically and expressed interest in pursuing music when in high school. Both attended Berklee’s 5 week and came away with very different attitudes about what they wanted moving forward. One realized that although he loved music and continues to explore it as a hobby, he did not need or necessarily want a conservatory program. The other decided he not only wanted music but wanted to go to a stand alone conservatory program. He was worried that if he attended a school like Oberlin he would get distracted by those things he feels are “easy” rather than the hard work of advancing as a musician.
It is all too easy when a child is excelling at the high school level to imagine their child continuing that course as they advance into higher education. But the reality is that most kids are going to have to make choices about what they can and can not do. Those that go through that process before beginning college (hence my suggestion of a gap year) are the best positioned to take advantage of their 8 semesters (which goes by quickly). A child hoping to pursue graduate work in sciences is going to need to quickly get up to speed and by his/her senior year be taking graduate level courses and doing research. Their summers will ideally be filled with doing an REU or research at the University. A student who is pre-health will have a full schedule most semesters and need to work hard to get top grades. One can certainly use college as a time to explore different paths but the parents should be prepared that the child might need additional credits beyond their undergraduate credits.
Finally remember kids change. I have known kids (like my daughter) to leave a conservatory program and end up pursuing science and a career as health care provider (NP). I have knew a young man who entered into Northeastern to do neurobiology who ended up at NEC for his masters and now does production. I have known pre-meds who switched out of being pre-med to pursue music.
Remember College is not high school. And definitely visit schools so your son can start to tell you where he feels comfortable.
I think that one reason you are having trouble finding a path is that you are looking for a performance degree but your family is excluding the possibility of a BM, whether at a freestanding conservatory or affiliated with a college/university.
Others have clarified the terminology and degrees: conservatory, school of music, music department, BA, BFA, BM. BS. A BM program will be 2/3-3/4 music with a performance focus, and a BA will be 1/4-1/3 music classes, with more academic focus and sometimes a performance component at some level.
If you look at liberal arts colleges, you are usually looking at a music department with a BA program (NOT always) and performance in extracurricular organizations. There are usually no auditions for admission, but a music supplement can be submitted with recording, music resume and recommendations from music teachers. Auditions happen in the fall for extracurriculars. For a BM program, there are usually auditions for admission, often after prescreens.
If you continue to look at schools that have a good reputation for their BM programs, be aware that opportunities may be less for the BA students since the best teachers and performance opportunities go to the BM students.
There may be exceptions to all this but you have to really dig and I realize you are doing that. One thing to look at with BA programs is whether credit is given for lessons and performances- this is really key to the orientation of the program. And whether there is any performance component to academic music classes- so check the actual course descriptions. Look at the faculty lists and see if there are excellent performers on faculty or staff.
**The fundamental problem here seems to be that your son wants to do music, and would at this moment be happier in a BM program most likely. But parents do not support this path. This issue comes up ALL the time. I just read another post about vocal performance majors, which has some articles that are relevant for all music parents- check it out. And study the Double Degree Dilemma essay well!
Please believe us that it is okay to focus on music as an undergrad!! This can lead to many paths in and out of music. The undergrad years should really be free of the kinds of career stresses that lead to the idea of a “more practical” degree. Music majors do very well getting into med or law school, they can do MBA or accelerated nursing, they can apply to any job that requires a bachelor’s and to other grad school programs. Music schools are well aware of career pressures and students do outreach, take an entrepreneurship class, and can intern in music organizations and other non-profits. My kid can fundraise and write website promotional materials and concert programs with the best of them 
The long term perspective is that paths are very flexible. The kid who spends all his time on music as an undergrad, at a freestanding conservatory, may end up in grad school doing Medieval Studies or Accounting. The kid who opted to do music through private lessons and extracurricular performance may catch fire doing gigs and go to a grad conservatory program. I know doctors who got their BM and still play in a regional orchestra.
The article on the VP thread uses the word “magical” to describe the years spent in music study. Avoiding big debt is important, but otherwise, I hope you and your husband can find it in you to support your son in music studies at whatever level he chooses. In that case, many of the schools mentioned would be great for him. You may find a well-respected BA program with great music but chances are it won’t present the kind of immersive experience in music that your son now craves.
With a few exceptions, you may be banging your head against the wall trying to find something that doesn’t exist in many places, while the answer may be right in front of you in terms of your son’s wishes.
Encourage him to apply to different options: any BM program that he loves, including freestanding conservatories; and an academic BA program that has a good music department, and maybe a state University too (SUNY’s are great for music, but a BM might be better there). Your son can change and grow in the coming months and having several options will make you all a lot happier. He can decide in late April senior year and in the meantime, you can all work to come to terms with what he might choose.
This list is just examples from your local area.
BA’s near NYC
https://www.sarahlawrence.edu/undergraduate/arts/music/
https://music.vassar.edu/ensembles/jazz.html
http://music.bard.edu/about/ (not the conservatory)
http://jazz.columbia.edu/
BM’s in/near NYC
https://www.purchase.edu/academics/music/ and other SUNY’s and CUNY’s
https://www.ithaca.edu/music/performance/programs/jazz/
http://www.hartford.edu/hartt/programs/jml-jazz.aspx
http://www.msmnyc.edu/Instruction-Faculty/Academic-Departments/Jazz
https://www.newschool.edu/jazz/
http://www.steinhardt.nyu.edu/music/jazz
Carnegie Mellon has a keyboard performance BM but I didn’t see any jazz program. Wesleyan is well-known for world music/ethnomusicology http://www.wesleyan.edu/music/aboutmajor.html It is a BA and I don’t see jazz there either.
Wesleyan does have jazz, my son is applying there this year and has spoken with the ensemble head.
USC Thornton has BOTH BA and BM in music and a very flexible program. UCLA offers a BA that is more like a BM, but you can also get all your med school requirements done or double major. Lots of options for doing music out there!
astute12, yes Wesleyan has some jazz courses, and ensembles, such as
MUSC455 Jazz Ensemble 1
MUSC456 Jazz Improvisation Performance 1
MUSC457 Jazz Orchestra I 1
MUSC458 Jazz Orchestra II
Sorry to be unclear. What I meant was there is no jazz program per se.
In the sense you mean many many schools “have jazz.”
It seems students at Wesleyan are allowed to focus in on an area of interest as long as they balance it with work in another field of interest within music, according to the website. It is a BA program so approximately 10 courses in music.
Just want to mention that I know a talented jazz saxophonist who attended Tufts and did gigs and majored in science. Apparently it worked well. He didn’t want to do the double degree with NEC.
Having gone through this dilemma with a very academic and very jazz oriented kid a few years ago, I can tell you that it’s hard to find a great solution. You’re not going to find a purely academic school that has the kind of robust jazz program that a kid who is serious about making a career in jazz needs. My son ended up at Columbia, which has one of the best jazz programs of any non-music school, and he loved it, but in addition to jazz at Columbia, he supplemented heavily with jazz resources in NYC outside the school. The Columbia jazz program really is terrific, but by itself it’s not enough for someone who wants to make jazz their career. And I don’t think there’s a pure academic college that would be better in this regard.
Harvard and Yale have only recently started to put some resources into jazz, but neither has anywhere near the jazz program that would be enough for a career-minded jazz musician (neither has the kind of jazz program that Columbia has), and Boston and New Haven do not have the resources for a jazz musician outside of school that New York has. Harvard does have a joint program with NEC (which has a terrific jazz program), but it’s almost impossible to get admitted to the joint program as a jazz musician. (Columbia has a joint program with Juilliard, but that’s also nearly impossible to get admitted to as a jazz musician.) Harvard recently started a joint program with Berklee, which is also a great place for a jazz musician - that was put in place after my son’s time, so I don’t have a good sense of how well it’s working. And if you point to people like Josh Redman or Aaron Goldberg, they made Harvard work as jazz musicians by doing all their jazz outside of Harvard.
There are some other good academic schools that are affiliated with good music school jazz programs, such as Oberlin, Michigan, Northwestern, USC and UCLA. Other colleges affiliated with good music school jazz programs include Indiana, SUNY Purchase, Rochester (Eastman), Hartford (Hartt) and Ithaca. I’m sure there are others too. But I don’t know how easy it is to straddle between the academic side and the music side at these schools, or whether the kids trying to straddle really get enough on the music side to be competitive in terms of making a career on the music side.
My son is now doing music full time, and amazingly is managing to support himself with the music, but most of the musicians he plays with come out of top pure jazz programs, such as MSM, Juilliard and New School, and not academic programs. Pursuing music as a career is hard, and pursuing it while trying to juggle an academic program is even harder. My son has no regrets about ending up at Columbia - he loved having the academic side as part of his college experience and loved being surrounded by incredibly bright classmates with a huge range of interests - but it definitely forced him to work harder to get the music experience he needed to make a career in jazz viable.
Great post. In other words, it is tough trying to study jazz in a non-conservatory/school of music environment. Some double degrees and some do academics but work extra hard like jazzpianodad’s son.
Just want to add that interests can be “sequenced.” An undergrad conservatory student may end up doing academics for grad school and vice-versa. Noone has to do everything at the same time if they aren’t up for the kind of challenges a double degree presents.